Tracer bullets

[Creaghorn 10]

hallo,

 

just a question,

i am not sure which one is more historical correct. the greyish bullets with smoke trail, or the yellowish bullets as we have here in BHAH? isn't it only incendiary bullets have a flashlike trail?

i saw the ROF vid showing bullets grey with a long trail, similar like in flyboys, so i was wondering.

would it be theoretically possible to take the file of the bullet (i found it somewhere, one frontside, one from the side) and paint it from yellow to grey, maybe even to make the flash longer to give it a more smoketrail-like look?

just asking. i don't have the right tool to open this file anyway. just wanted to know if it would be possible, and if it would be historically correct.

 

thank you.

[JohnGresham 0]

hallo,

 

just a question,

i am not sure which one is more historical correct. the greyish bullets with smoke trail, or the yellowish bullets as we have here in BHAH? isn't it only incendiary bullets have a flashlike trail?

i saw the ROF vid showing bullets grey with a long trail, similar like in flyboys, so i was wondering.

would it be theoretically possible to take the file of the bullet (i found it somewhere, one frontside, one from the side) and paint it from yellow to grey, maybe even to make the flash longer to give it a more smoketrail-like look?

just asking. i don't have the right tool to open this file anyway. just wanted to know if it would be possible, and if it would be historically correct.

 

thank you.

 

Interesting point. I'm pretty sure the Germans were more prone to use incendiaries in WWI than the allies, (there's one particular story of how Mannock [i think] had to dissuade a young pilot in his squadron from loading up with incendiaries because it would make him no better than a Hun) it would be great if it was possible to reflect that in the type and amount of damage inflicted as well as the look of the tracers.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

A good observation Creaghorn, and I know for sure that in all the old black-and-white WWI flying movies I've ever seen, the tracer trails are ALWAYS greyish.

 

And JohnGresham, another Flight of the Conchords fan I see. And, as one of the travel posters in Murray's office says, "New Zealand: Don't expect too much — you'll love it".

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Creaghorn 10]

of course they were grey. that's because the world was b/w on those days

at least that's what i thought when i was a small kid.

[shredward 12]

Hi Guys,

Tracer was first used before WW1 but suffered from the fact that as the phosphor burnt away the bullet became lighter and the trajectory departed from that of the normal rounds that it was mixed with.

 

The "Woolwich Flaming Bullet" was introduced in 1914 but proved to be useless!

 

The Ministry of Munitions developed a bullet known as the "Sparklet" (it was made in a soda syphon factory and Sparklet was a brand name of the inserts used in the syphons). The correct name for this tracer bullet was the SPK Mk VII-T.

The SPK Mk VII-T, issued to the RFC in July 1916, contained a mixture of 1 part magnesium to 8 parts barium peroxide which gave a "clear bright light which can be clearly observed". The SPK Mk VII-G was an update on the T introduced in 1917. The magnesium burns with a clear bright white light - the barium leaves a smoking trail . Most RFC pilot literature describes tracer as white smoking trails.

The above of course was the Allied effort. The Central Powers developed their own variants and the "LS" was in use by late 1916. LS stood for Leuchtspur - luminous tracing ammunition. An armour piercing tracer was introduced in early 1917, known as the PL - Panzer Leuchtspur. British tests showed this round to be almost as effective as a standard armour piercing round.

 

With thanks to Mike Westrop and Harry Woodman - Early Aircraft Armament

 

Cheers,

shredward

[CaptSopwith 26]

Nice bit of info there Shred, thanks for passing that along. I love this forum, I learn something new everyday!

[Creaghorn 10]

Interesting point. I'm pretty sure the Germans were more prone to use incendiaries in WWI than the allies, (there's one particular story of how Mannock [i think] had to dissuade a young pilot in his squadron from loading up with incendiaries because it would make him no better than a Hun) it would be great if it was possible to reflect that in the type and amount of damage inflicted as well as the look of the tracers.

 

i know it vice versa. there is one part in MvR book, where he was attacking a two seater from the rear and was pretty far away. the enemy gunner was constantly shooting at him, with tracer bullets.

MvR. told it's not the best feeling one can have, seeing all the tracers flying by because the allied are using more and more often this mean stuff, but since human is a creature of habit, he smiled at that moment.

 

so for me it sounds like, the allies used it more often.

[shredward 12]

Standard loadout for the RFC was one tracer to three ball rounds. Individual pilots sometimes asked their armourers for other mixes, but 1 and 3 was the norm.

We must be careful to distinguish between ammunition types - tracer was very different to incendiary, and then of course there was Buckingham, Pomeroy, Brock, and various AP rounds.

If you want to explore the legal framework, niceties, and practice of their use, you could start here:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/other-ww...ary-ammo-2.html

Cheers,

shredward

[shredward 12]

Not just early war - armament was a work in progress. I'd have to look it up, but one of the major German aces was put out of action when the ammo in his DVII cooked off. It was a serious hazard with the DVII - happened more than once. One often sees photos of them with their engine covers removed, or highly modified.

Cheers,

shredward

[cptroyce 0]

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't incindiary rounds considered a violation of the Hague Convention on Warfare? Then as the war progressed and became what war really is, they were utilized by both sides?

 

Royce

[RAF_Louvert 101]

There was actually a time period during the War were British pilots had to carry a signed paper stating they were on a balloon busting mission and thus were "allowed" to have incindiary rounds loaded in their guns. If they were downed behind the lines and captured and it was discoverd they had said rounds loaded but did NOT have this paper, they could be, (and on ocassion were), shot.

 

The "rules" of war can be very strange.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[JohnGresham 0]

A good observation Creaghorn, and I know for sure that in all the old black-and-white WWI flying movies I've ever seen, the tracer trails are ALWAYS greyish.

 

And JohnGresham, another Flight of the Conchords fan I see. And, as one of the travel posters in Murray's office says, "New Zealand: Don't expect too much — you'll love it".

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

My other favourite is 'New Zealand rocks!!!'.

[rabu 9]

We worked quite a bit on tracers back in August 2007 for Phase II. I was trying to get the look I saw in Flyboys:

 

 

It just wasn't possible, but I came up with an alternative that you can see in the screenshots below, compared to the stock CFS3 tracers.

 

 

 

 

There were some problems with these and I just can't remember what, we ended up going with the ones you see now, but if any one wants to try out my version, you can dl them here (click)

 

 

 

Let us know what you think.

[Creaghorn 10]

wow, that looks cool. i'll try it as soon as i can. just wondering what the problems, you mentioned, might be.

 

of the bullets there is a front view and a side view in the effects folder. i would like to make the frontview thinner (looks as big as from a pitching machine IMHO) and greyish looking without the illuminated effect, and the sideview thinner and much much longer to have this smoke trail look, but don't have the tools for it. so i asked olham. i'll test it as soon as he can take a minute for it.

but this version looks awesome. the only thing i would change in this version is the bullet itself, making it smaller and greyish, not illuminated. wow. would be cool if it would work properly.

[rabu 9]

wow, that looks cool. i'll try it as soon as i can. just wondering what the problems, you mentioned, might be.

 

of the bullets there is a front view and a side view in the effects folder. i would like to make the frontview thinner (looks as big as from a pitching machine IMHO) and greyish looking without the illuminated effect, and the sideview thinner and much much longer to have this smoke trail look, but don't have the tools for it. so i asked olham. i'll test it as soon as he can take a minute for it.

but this version looks awesome. the only thing i would change in this version is the bullet itself, making it smaller and greyish, not illuminated. wow. would be cool if it would work properly.

 

 

Thanks, I think it just didn't have the right feel about it.. looked too stiff, or what ever, so we decided to play down the effect.

 

Would be interesting to see what others can do with it though/

[catch 81]

Yes very interesting Rabu and a worthwhile effort. However, the tracer effect in Flyboys looked very odd to me and, as the aircraft were all ridiculously uber as well, I thought it was all part of the entertainment aspect rather than reality.

 

But having said that and not being an expert on the subject, can anyone verify that the Flyboy tracer effect is correct or not ? If not, what should it have been like ?

[Creaghorn 10]

hi rabu,

i tried it and i like it. very well done. though it's hardly visible from virtual cockpit. it's visible when somebody else is shooting. personally what i would like to see ist the yellow balls in the same colour as the smoke, and the frontview of the bullets much smaller. and more and thicker smoketrail. the effect looks perfect, should only be IMHO much more visible, because you should follow the streams when aiming, and not the bullet itself (too fast to follow), wich would be IMHO more realistic. then it wouldn't have the incendiary effect anymore, but normal, amost invisible bullets with a smoketrail.

 

if you would do that, that would be perfect. if not, that's fine too. anyways, i am just talking, not beeing able to do it by myself. just telling my opinion :-)

 

have fun, friend

 

creaghorn

[rabu 9]

hi rabu,

i tried it and i like it. very well done. though it's hardly visible from virtual cockpit. it's visible when somebody else is shooting. personally what i would like to see ist the yellow balls in the same colour as the smoke, and the frontview of the bullets much smaller. and more and thicker smoketrail. the effect looks perfect, should only be IMHO much more visible, because you should follow the streams when aiming, and not the bullet itself (too fast to follow), wich would be IMHO more realistic. then it wouldn't have the incendiary effect anymore, but normal, amost invisible bullets with a smoketrail.

 

if you would do that, that would be perfect. if not, that's fine too. anyways, i am just talking, not beeing able to do it by myself. just telling my opinion :-)

 

have fun, friend

 

creaghorn

 

Hi, Creaghorn, maybe that was the problem, you really couldn't see it much from the CP? I'll play around with it this weekend and see what I can do.

[rabu 9]

Yes very interesting Rabu and a worthwhile effort. However, the tracer effect in Flyboys looked very odd to me and, as the aircraft were all ridiculously uber as well, I thought it was all part of the entertainment aspect rather than reality.

 

But having said that and not being an expert on the subject, can anyone verify that the Flyboy tracer effect is correct or not ? If not, what should it have been like ?

 

 

I agree about FB, but it sure was fun. I just couldn't get past the historical visuals with all those plane logos and wrong colored planes, etc. I have no idea how correct the tracer smoke was, Rise of Flight looks similar to me and they are going on about how accurate theirs is, who knows, any one here?

 

Remember in Red Baron, you had a choice of loading the flamable type bullets for ballons?

Edited April 3, 2009 by rabu

[Creaghorn 10]

Hi, Creaghorn, maybe that was the problem, you really couldn't see it much from the CP? I'll play around with it this weekend and see what I can do.

 

from cockpit i didn't see any difference or just little bit. watching the others shooting looked much better than before. i like your work very much. so maybe the key is only making the smoke a lot thicker and bigger to be more visible. maybe similar like a hole in the petrol tank, but not that big of course.

i asked olham for this modification before you posted your version, so if you are going to tweak around, i'll tell him there is no need to do the same.

i hope my suggestions are helping you a bit.

[Creaghorn 10]

Just as a side note: In Phase 1 Tracer fire visability, or lack there of, was governed by the position of the EFFECTS slider. I had it on 3 and I couldn't see a damn thing. Upon raising it to 5 the Tracers appeared from nowhere, however my AGP rig, couldn't handle it, and my FPS fell to the single digits. It was then that I decided "4" is a nice number.

 

I wonder is it still that way, sure would explain a lot ?

 

 

my effects slider is set on 5, and i can see the tracers from the others quite mediocre and my own just little to none. so i think it's just a matter of size, the trail is going to be made

[Mr_Dirt 1]

I was under the impression that it took a different cal gun to fire the incendiary round. I have read several books on Frank Luke saying he had on Vickers 303 and a different gun for incendiary rounds for Balloon busting. Is this wrong?

[rabu 9]

I just messed around with it some more and now I remember what the problem was.. the smoke trail doesn't last long enough to look like a smoke trail and it isn't that visible from in CP.

[Creaghorn 10]

thanks for trying, rabu

your new version is quite good anyway. you can see the tracers at least from the others.

 

have fun

[Creaghorn 10]

how do you like that? i didn't get good screenshots, ingame it looks much more visible. but that's the best i could create so far. i used rabu's tracer dds and altered the bullets a bit.

if someone likes it, please pm me and give your email addy so i can send you a zip. of course only with permission of the devs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2009 by Creaghorn