A question about MvR

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I am off to the pub tonight, and love checking the forum's when I pour home!

 

So, I thought I would ask a question that has always intrigued me.

 

Do you guys think that, given the various aircraft available throughout his career... That Manfred Would / Could have scored 80 kills or more.... if he had flown for the RFC?

 

Or, would his career have been cut short by Lanoe Hawker in a German Machine?

 

Was his success due to him? His Aircraft?...Or a bit of both?

[JohnGresham 0]

I am off to the pub tonight, and love checking the forum's when I pour home!

 

So, I thought I would ask a question that has always intrigued me.

 

Do you guys think that, given the various aircraft available throughout his career... That Manfred Would / Could have scored 80 kills or more.... if he had flown for the RFC?

 

Or, would his career have been cut short by Lanoe Hawker in a German Machine?

 

Was his success due to him? His Aircraft?...Or a bit of both?

 

Don't forget that the RFC's attitude was overtly aggressive, with the majority of missions taking place on the German side of the lines and they flew far more observation and recon missions than the Germans. By contrast the Germans were much more defensive in their operations. It's difficult to generalize, but in my opinion I think it's doubtful Richtofen would have reached the tally that he did flying for the RFC.

[Olham 164]

Manfred flew more than one craft or type; here in BHaH, he is seen in:

Halberstadt, Albatros (several versions), and the Fokker Dr.1.

He might have even scored much higher, had he flown the DVII.

 

The carreers of Allied pilots couldn't only get shortened by death, but also by emergency landing on German terrain.

If it's true, that German fighter pilots didn't have to go far into enemy terrain, they had an advantage there.

 

But the man von Richthofen was so much a hunter (much more than a good pilot), that, given a Sopwith Pup, an S.E.5a

or a Camel, I'm pretty certain, he would have scored similarly high with them.

 

But he had forced landings (at least one), and that would have taken him out and a POW, on enemy terrain.

[Hauksbee 103]

I would suspect he would not have been the high scorer he was with Germany. It was a different kind of fight. The classical Dawn Patrol had Allied planes flying east, into the sun, clawing for altitude. The Germans, who could sleep later, were waiting, thereby having the attack advantage. Allied planes had missions to carry out. The German mission was simply to stop them. Allied planes had tail winds going to the target, head winds on the return leg. Bad for those wounded, engines running badly or low on fuel. Richtofen [Germans pilots in general] would pick off these stragglers. Last, Allied pilots flew a tour of duty; the Germans, as in WWII, flew for the duration.

[Dej 17]

I've always maintained that had the duel between Hawker and von Richthofen taken place in matched machines or had Hawker not been disadvantaged by the prevailing wind then he'd have beaten Manfred. Certainly if the situation had been reversed, then Hawker would have been the winner.

 

Hawker was a hunter too, his father had written a famous treatise on the art of hunting. Hawker was also a superlative shot, and already an ace using a Lewis gun mounted at 45 degrees to clear the propeller... I've managed to shoot down 1 Halberstadt from the cockpit of a BE2 (that being a similar set up) it was bloody hard work.

 

MvR didn't score his first victory until he was equipped with an Albatross DII, with interrupter gear. Hawker was Richthofen's 11th victim, so he'd got in a bit more practice by then but it still took him 900 rounds to get Hawker and only then when the latter was flying defensively, low on fuel and desperately trying to get back to the British side of the lines rather than stay and fight and risk being made prisoner.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Dej

[Creaghorn 10]

i think, wether he would have been prisoner of war when he had to land his albatros due to a hit engine, or he would have by far more kills then 80. german claim rules were by far more hard. one pilot one kill, no shared victories. the need of numerous witnesses or wreckage. no "out of control", but evidence of wreckage. for every aircraft he put one hole into to help out, and wolff or LvR or anybody else had the main kill, it would have been shared victories.

another thing. the allies never had the problem of shortages, of wingstrut problems, beeing forced to use older parts to repair aircraft, moving around in tents to concentrate the forces because there were so many more allied pilots spread at the front. the allies mostly had the advantage of quantity. always the better scouts (at least since both sides had interrupter gear). the alb dIII, dV have been always inferior to the camels, se5's, pup's, triplanes. only advantage for a period was the two guns of the german scouts.

 

IMHO he would have many more victories.

[Hasse Wind 46]

My opinion is the same as Creaghorn's. Even if the Germans didn't have to fly as offensively as the Entente squadrons, the longer the war went on, the more telling the Entente superiority in numbers and logistics became and before the D.VII's became available in adequate numbers, the German's had the weaker scouts. Of course Germans had also some periods of superiority when they were the to first to have synchronized MG's and dual guns in their planes. (And one mustn't forget the excellent German tactics, training and Jasta/JG organizations!) The Alb. D.V, while a good plane, is no match for Camels and other excellent later war Entente scouts. The Pfalz D.III's really sucked compared to most Entente fighters, and a quarter of German scouts in service were Pfalzes at one point of the war.

 

I think MvR would have been a great ace in any air force. He had the best qualities of a patient hunter and knew exactly what he was doing.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Fascinating reading!

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Also one must consider, for most of the war, the Germans had twice the fire power on their machines plus more ammo. Don't know how much of a factor though given MvR's style of hunting and not dogfighting.

[JohnGresham 0]

I've always maintained that had the duel between Hawker and von Richthofen taken place in matched machines or had Hawker not been disadvantaged by the prevailing wind then he'd have beaten Manfred. Certainly if the situation had been reversed, then Hawker would have been the winner.

 

Hawker was a hunter too, his father had written a famous treatise on the art of hunting. Hawker was also a superlative shot, and already an ace using a Lewis gun mounted at 45 degrees to clear the propeller... I've managed to shoot down 1 Halberstadt from the cockpit of a BE2 (that being a similar set up) it was bloody hard work.

 

MvR didn't score his first victory until he was equipped with an Albatross DII, with interrupter gear. Hawker was Richthofen's 11th victim, so he'd got in a bit more practice by then but it still took him 900 rounds to get Hawker and only then when the latter was flying defensively, low on fuel and desperately trying to get back to the British side of the lines rather than stay and fight and risk being made prisoner.

 

Can't disagree with that. Stick Von Richtofen in a DH2 over enemy lines with the wind against him and Hawker in a DII and there's a very good chance that Manfred is toast!

Edited April 22, 2009 by JohnGresham

[Bandy 3]

... the allies never had the problem of shortages, of wingstrut problems, beeing forced to use older parts to repair aircraft, moving around in tents to concentrate the forces because there were so many more allied pilots spread at the front.

 

Creaghorn, read Cecil Lewis' book and McCudden's book. They talk about moving around quite a bit, and living in tents, etc. using old airplanes, and the Clerget engined Camels were a treat to die in!!!

 

As far as different claim systems, yes, they were different, but I don't think they are comparable. They were both equally hard to get a claim given most fights occurred well on the Eastern side of the front!

 

I've read scholarly opinions stating that Bishop should have been the top scoring ace, but he hunted by himself mostly without the assistance of dozens of wingmates. Who knows!

 

Bottom line, all conjecture aside, the top aces on both sides ended up with just about equal number of confirmed claims. That is the fact.

[Dej 17]

Bottom line, all conjecture aside, the top aces on both sides ended up with just about equal number of confirmed claims. That is the fact.

 

And a lot of them ended up equal in Death too in 1918... one year too many.

[Creaghorn 10]

Creaghorn, read Cecil Lewis' book and McCudden's book. They talk about moving around quite a bit, and living in tents, etc. using old airplanes, and the Clerget engined Camels were a treat to die in!!!

 

As far as different claim systems, yes, they were different, but I don't think they are comparable. They were both equally hard to get a claim given most fights occurred well on the Eastern side of the front!

 

I've read scholarly opinions stating that Bishop should have been the top scoring ace, but he hunted by himself mostly without the assistance of dozens of wingmates. Who knows!

 

Bottom line, all conjecture aside, the top aces on both sides ended up with just about equal number of confirmed claims. That is the fact.

 

i've red flying fury. mccudden talks about moving back because germans were approaching at times when he still was a mechanic. it was quite early in the war and the frontlines didn't freeze, yet. also when he talked about the morane saulnier and other "old" aircraft, it was at times where they were quite new. it was at times when the eindecker was the new german aicraft.

what i mean is from about mid 1917. the longer the war went, the tougher it was for the germans to keep their supplies fluid. i've seen pictures of german aicraft with white tires because of some rubber shortage. there are stories when german mechanics had to dismantle all necessary things off allied wreckages. when german pilots complaint about seeing allied wreckages with brand new, shining, gauges in every single aircraft, whilst they had to use quite spartanic cockpits. there were even times when they were short of paint, so they had to mix the paint they had left somehow to the colours they wanted.

however, it's hard to tell who would have been the best of the best. all you can have is given stats. i red somewhere MvR claimed all in all at least 125 aircraft. but so did fonck and others too. but the biggest difference is in the german system you had to prove you had the kill. in early times a kill in enemy territory didn't count at all. you had to show wreckage, witnesses, crashsites, sometimes alltogether because sometimes there were multiple claims and only one can get it. it's known the germans had overall the best recorded and researchable files, so it's proven that the 80 kills of MavR are almost all confirmed by evidence, while the allied way was very much harder really to confirm. so often youd had to beleave what a bishop or others had to say. it's only strange other pilots around him had all the suspicions. a guy, flying in formation with hardly a kill, when going out alone, fighting against jasta's coming back with two or three kills regurlary with no evidence or witnesses.

however. fonck, bishop, MvR, udet, guynemer, ball, all of them were great pilots in a league of their own. maybe the best of the best would have been boelcke anyway.

[Olham 164]

Not believing in destiny, I think a lot depends on just luck.

MvR was hit by a bullet, that didn't go into his head. Lanoe Hawker got hit right into the head.

A difference of an inch sometimes.

The same about the many holes, MvR found in his uniform and boots - he must have been ALMOST

shot several times. But with plenty of "lucky inches", you can carry on growing your kill tally.

 

And then, on one April morning, he didn't know, that the last "lucky inch" had been used up in a previous fight...

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Not believing in destiny, I think a lot depends on just luck.

 

Hmm... I would say that Destiny and luck are brother and Sister

[Duce Lewis 3]

Not believing in destiny, I think a lot depends on just luck.

MvR was hit by a bullet, that didn't go into his head. Lanoe Hawker got hit right into the head.

A difference of an inch sometimes.

The same about the many holes, MvR found in his uniform and boots - he must have been ALMOST

shot several times. But with plenty of "lucky inches", you can carry on growing your kill tally.

 

And then, on one April morning, he didn't know, that the last "lucky inch" had been used up in a previous fight...

Yes, I agree here

 

So many what if's

What if MVR didn't get as good pilots when he started out as a Tail Gunner

What if he was assigned TG on Be2's facing Albatross DI & II's

What if he was posted to a DH2 squad during bloody April

 

In general "the cream rises to the top"

Most of the great aces would have done well if they were on the other side

But some no doubt would have suffered an entirely different fate

[JFM 18]

Hello!

 

You guys have completely omitted Hawker’s target fixation with the German two seaters on 23 November—because of this he didn’t even see Jasta 2 diving down on No. 24 Squadron. Andrews did, but he couldn’t get Hawker’s attention and stayed with his leader—and got shot to hell for it. Often you’ll see this business of Hawker attacking Jasta 2 and MvR barely turning to avoid his bullets, but this is the version in Richthofen’s autobiography that was possibly subject to victory cross-contamination (by the time it was written some six months later MvR had been credited with 41 additional victories). The combat reports of Richthofen and Andrews and Saundby confirm Jasta 2 dived on and attacked No. 24 Squadron. Hawker never fired on MvR and an Albatros had been seen latching on to his tail from the beginning.

 

So, put Hawker in a D.III and Jasta 2 in D.H.2s—being dived upon by planes you never even see coming puts you at a big disadvantage, no matter what you’re flying, wind and location be damned.

 

And what of Hawker’s stick and rudder ability? Certainly they had eroded because of his flight prohibition resulting from being commander. According to the No. 24 Squadron combat reports and squadron record book, Hawker had sortied only 5.6 hours since 1 October and not at all since 20 October! He flew 23 November only because he filled in for a pilot who was slated to go on leave, in case something happened to him just before he left. 5.6 hours of flight time in 54 days with no hours in 34 days erodes ability, no matter who you are. Also, his last victory had been while flying a Bristol Scout in September 1915—over a year previous—and he had no D.H.2 victories.

 

Meanwhile, Jasta 2 had been going hell-for-leather since mid-September. Without flight restrictions, Richthofen flew continually and shot down ten planes by 23 November; three more than Hawker ever shot down. It had turned into a different war for Hawker. It wasn’t 1915 anymore, chasing C-types around with a rigged Bristol. By November 1916 he wasn’t flying much and the British were facing reorganized Jastas flying new D.Is and D.IIs (Manfred’s first victory was in a D.I, not a D.II, and it was not as if he couldn’t score until he received one, that was the plane he had been assigned when he became a fighter pilot). It wasn’t Richthofen’s fault that the British hadn’t come out with the S.E.5a yet.

 

IMO it is irrelevant that it took ca. 900 bullets to kill Hawker as he fled—a bullet to the head is a bullet to the head. Would it have been “better” if MvR killed him with the 118th bullet as Hawker chandelled? The bullets were there to be fired—as long as he got him with one of them is all that mattered, whether it was the first or the thousandth. It took the Americans several tries and dozens of bombs and torpedoes before we finally struck mortal blows on the Japanese carriers at Midway—did all those tries lessen the victory? Of course not.

Edited April 24, 2009 by JFM

[Creaghorn 10]

one thing what MvR said: "it's never about what type of aircraft one is flying. it's about who is sitting inside." it's the approach someone has when going into a fight. he said, at the beginnning he was just curious what's going to happen now. then, after the 2nd or third kill he had the attitude, this fellow MUST fall, at any circumstances. that's completely different.

this attitude, combined with a great sense of SA made him have his kills, even against superior scouts. that's what he taught his squadron mates. to be present. to be aggressive and always put the enemy under pressure. he himself enjoyed the thrill of combat. but most pilots didn't. at some point it became obsessive. not a kill was relevant, this fellow had to burn all the way down. quite understandable IMHO. there are more and more formations, always in superior numbers. at the beginning he spared the lifes of his victims. you find out they tried to shoot at you, still from the ground. no more. you got wounded and now you want to make sure, if one falls he is out of action. no tricks, no another day for the victim. when he goes down, you make sure he's not going up tomorrow. only way to be sure is to make him burn. quite understandable.

the approach is the difference. the difference of going at bat with "I know his fastball, I'll smack it right back into his face", or "I have to make sure not to miss..."