Werner Voss...some guy!

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I am sure you have all seen the episode of 'Dogfight' featuring Werner Voss's heroic last stand against a multitude of SE5a's, fronted by Rhys Davis and James McCudden?

 

I just watched it again, and think, had he survived, he would have exceeded MVR's record possibly.

 

He was certainly an excellent Pilot, and superior marksman (MVR is thought by many to have also been an exemplary marksman, but only an average Pilot)

 

I wonder who the Red Nosed Albatross pilot was, who stumbled across the Dogfight, but who was also shot down in the engagement.

 

McCudden was obviously full of respect for Voss, saying that Voss was "The most skillful German pilot it had ever been his honour to fly against"

 

Some guy!!

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Aha!

 

The other German Pilot was apparently Karl Menckhoff...and although he was shot down in the fight, he survived

[Gremlin_WoH 0]

The title of the following report is somewhat off but ...

 

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/06...-or-super-hero/

 

nevertheless a good read.

[JohnGresham 0]

I am sure you have all seen the episode of 'Dogfight' featuring Werner Voss's heroic last stand against a multitude of SE5a's, fronted by Rhys Davis and James McCudden?

 

I just watched it again, and think, had he survived, he would have exceeded MVR's record possibly.

 

He was certainly an excellent Pilot, and superior marksman (MVR is thought by many to have also been an exemplary marksman, but only an average Pilot)

 

I wonder who the Red Nosed Albatross pilot was, who stumbled across the Dogfight, but who was also shot down in the engagement.

 

McCudden was obviously full of respect for Voss, saying that Voss was "The most skillful German pilot it had ever been his honour to fly against"

 

 

 

Some guy!!

 

I don't know; it's all speculation, but that's the fun I suppose. I think Voss was almost certainly a better pilot than MVR, but he was much more reckless, instinctive and less cautious than MVR. He was also more of lone hunter than a team player. Given all these characteristics I think it was exceptional he managed to survive as long as he did. His stlye and method of dogfighting was always eventually going to catch up with him.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

The title of the following report is somewhat off but ...

 

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/06...-or-super-hero/

 

nevertheless a good read.

 

 

Great read Gremlin..thanks for posting.

 

Yes John..He certainly was reckless (but at 20 yrs old he can be forgiven i suppose)...In fact, he had more than one oportunity to escape from his final dogfight, but was obviously caught up in the moment.

 

Stunning Pilot though

[Rickitycrate 10]

Reminds me of a certain Herr Olham aka Bordeaux Red Baron. Out to win the war single handed. They do make a good story.

[von Baur 54]

"Voss"...had more than one oportunity to escape from his final dogfight, but was obviously caught up in the moment.

 

Stunning Pilot though

 

 

I disagree that he had any "chance to escape", Widowmaker. The Dr1 was considerably slower and didn't have the ceiling or the range of the SE5, meaning they could go where he could and they could get there faster and wait for him. His only chance for 'escape' was to make the 56 Squadron pilots want to escape from him. To do that he had to combine offensive and defensive flying, which he did as possibly only he and the Dr1 could.

 

By the accounts of both McCudden and Rhys-Davis he was a ghost, filling their sights one moment and gone the next. I don't think it was an accident...I think he knew exactly what he was doing. He was trying to get them to fire and, hopefully, run out of ammunition. McCudden also remarked that Voss had put holes in all of their machines. Try taking a Dr1 against six veteran AI SE5's in QC someitme. You may hit a few, but to hit all of them you have to fire from impossible angles at times when it wouldn't be expected. And to do that you have to know how to make your aircraft do things that your opponents don't believe can be done.

 

Stunning pilot? Yeah, I'll agree 1000% (not a typo, I meant to say 1000%) with you on that one.

[Hauksbee 103]

I disagree that he had any "chance to escape"....

 

I'd have to agree. Six-to-one is not the most cheerful odds, but Voss still had a strong hand and eveything said, 'Get in close'. The Dr.I is not the plane for a hasty retreat. Besides, Voss was really young and I suspect just a bit full of himself, He was 20, a top-scoring ace, a Pour le Merit holder, he'd been given a prototype plane by Fokker, he had 10 kills in it, and before McCudden came on the scene, [if we can believe the History Channel] he had put two SE-5's out of the fight. There's no way to prove it, of course, but I don't think Voss saw it as a hopeless situation. We, on the other hand, know the outcome and wonder 'what was he thinking?'

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Hmm..There was heavy cloud cover that day though...Could he not have tried for that?

[Hauksbee 103]

Hmm..There was heavy cloud cover that day though...Could he not have tried for that?

Interesting. Were the clouds low enough that he could have made it? The Dr.1 was a climber.

[Olham 164]

Think, you hit it, John Gresham.

Twenty years old, rivaling MvR, mad to grow his kill tally, adrenalin rushed in that very moment.

All this came together, plus: a single Dr.1 has NO chance to escape 5 S.E.5a (IMHO).

 

Hahaha! Yes Rickitycrate - I feel very related to Voss and his style, although I should

have quietened down a bit, since I'm more than double his age.

 

Absolutely, von Baur!

 

Widow, Hauksbee - to climb for the clouds with FIVE S.E.5a around and behind you? You could perhaps

climb away from one or even two, when you spiral upwards, without getting hit. But 5 opponents are

just too many. And I'm sure, Rhys-Davis wasn't proud about such a victory.

And even if Voss hoped, the British would run out of ammo - they had about five times as much as he

could use to at least do enough damage on them, to escape them later.

His only, and very small chance would have been to dive away right when he spotted them, and try to

escape with all tricks available. Very small chance, as the S.E.5s came from higher altitude, and are

terribly fast.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Think, you hit it, John Gresham.

Twenty years old, rivaling MvR, mad to grow his kill tally, adrenalin rushed in that very moment.

All this came together, plus: a single Dr.1 has NO chance to escape 5 S.E.5a (IMHO).

 

Hahaha! Yes Rickitycrate - I feel very related to Voss and his style, although I should

have quietened down a bit, since I'm more that double his age.

 

Absolutely, von Baur!

 

Widow, Hauksbee - to climb for the clouds with FIVE S.E.5a around and behind you? You could perhaps

climb away from one or even two, when you spiral upwards, without getting hit. But 5 opponents are

just too many. And I'm sure, Rhys-Davis wasn't proud about such a victory.

And even if Voss hoped, the British would run out of ammo - they had about five times as much as he

could use to at least do enough damage on them, to escape them later.

His only, and very small chance would have been to dive away right when he spotted them, and try to

escape with all tricks available. Very small chance, as the S.E.5s came from higher altitude, and are

terribly fast.

 

Guess he knew his number was up..So he went down Fighting!..and boy..what a fight it was too

[Hasse Wind 46]

I don't think MvR would have got himself into such a situation in the first place, he was too much of a careful hunter who tried to choose his battles so that he always had a good chance to down somebody and then get away safely. But he also ran out of luck in the end.

 

There's no denying that Voss was a remarkable pilot. If he had lived longer, he might well have shot down more planes than MvR. But how many of those hothead aces like Voss lived through the war? Not many...

 

The Dr.I really sucks as an escape plane in Voss's situation, the Se.5as are much too fast.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

We must'nt forget of course that he was 'Bounced' by McCudden's flight...he had already made short work of two SE5a's...and perhaps, by the time he had realised he was under attack, escape was not possible..So he had no choice but to try and fight his way out

[Olham 164]

Yep - and this with far less than 1000 rounds. I don't know how much an S.E.5a "eats",

but they are quite tough, unless you get very close. From sim experience only, I would

guess some 150 rounds each minimum? So he had 700 left for 5 more. Could have just

been enough - if no shot goes wasted.

He proved exellently, that the Dr.1 was a turn-devil, and that he could work with her

instability perfectly. But 5 good S.E.5 pilots should be able to end such demonstration,

before they are all down.

[JimAttrill 24]

A truly great pilot - but in a way he was lucky to die the way he did. As a Jew, he would not have had a happy time later on.

[OvS 8]

A truly great pilot - but in a way he was lucky to die the way he did. As a Jew, he would not have had a happy time later on.

 

Um... well.. yes, but really, I don't think that's any reason to be 'lucky' to die. Regardless of the path that Germany took after WWI. If one certain Austrian pee-on in the trenches had died as well, the whole WORLD would have been in happier times as well.

 

As for Voss, I agree 1000% as well. A true pilot by definintion. He knew his plane as well as knew how to fly it. A pilot that knows how to fix his plane, is a pilot that knows how far he can take the plane.

 

There is little to be said about how that situation was going for him. I think he knew he was in a battle he could not win, seeing who he was facing, but yet, he took them on and did his absolute best to leave them with something to think about. If it were 4-on-1 or 3-on-1, I think Voss would have gotten 2 of them. But 6-on-1 verses the best England had to offer, was simply too much for any top ranked pilot.

 

Also... I know I'll get heat for this as I am getting heat for my Luke comments, but I do often wonder if MvR was the best true fighter pilot of WWI. Personally, I'd take Voss, Fonck or Udet over MvR just purely based on flying skills. Tactics, MvR was a hunter, and his methods used were than of one, but as a pure fighter pilot? I wonder. Judging by how Udet could toss his plane around at air shows, or how Voss could take on 6 EA's at once, and be called a 'ghost', make you think about the level of skill and understanding these young men had.

 

OvS

[SirMike1983 3]

Um... well.. yes, but really, I don't think that's any reason to be 'lucky' to die. Regardless of the path that Germany took after WWI. If one certain Austrian pee-on in the trenches had died as well, the whole WORLD would have been in happier times as well.

 

As for Voss, I agree 1000% as well. A true pilot by definintion. He knew his plane as well as knew how to fly it. A pilot that knows how to fix his plane, is a pilot that knows how far he can take the plane.

 

There is little to be said about how that situation was going for him. I think he knew he was in a battle he could not win, seeing who he was facing, but yet, he took them on and did his absolute best to leave them with something to think about. If it were 4-on-1 or 3-on-1, I think Voss would have gotten 2 of them. But 6-on-1 verses the best England had to offer, was simply too much for any top ranked pilot.

 

Also... I know I'll get heat for this as I am getting heat for my Luke comments, but I do often wonder if MvR was the best true fighter pilot of WWI. Personally, I'd take Voss, Fonck or Udet over MvR just purely based on flying skills. Tactics, MvR was a hunter, and his methods used were than of one, but as a pure fighter pilot? I wonder. Judging by how Udet could toss his plane around at air shows, or how Voss could take on 6 EA's at once, and be called a 'ghost', make you think about the level of skill and understanding these young men had.

 

OvS

 

I have a few old WWI aviation books around (say, 1918 to 1965). They actually agree with your point on the MvR flying qualities-- namely that Voss and Udet were more talented in terms of raw flying ability, but that MvR had a stronger tactical eye. The view that MvR was somehow superior in ALL regards to everyone else was entirely a myth. Fonck was the better marksman, Voss the better aerobat, Boelcke the better tactician. But MvR rather was a well-rounded mixture of qualities that made for an overall great talent.

 

As for the Dr.1: in a 1-on-1 level dogfight, it's superior to the SE 5. But in numbers, with the SE 5s from above, it's a deathtrap-- you can't dive away and you can't flat run. You could try to climb, but since the SE 5s are coming in with greater energy, they can zoom and put bursts into the Dr.1. The only hope is to damage the opposing aircraft sufficiently to slow them down or frighten them off. I suppose if you could put a burst in the radiator or fuel or oil lines of each, then you could disable them enough to escape. But that's asking a lot.

[Bandy 3]

As for the Dr.1: in a 1-on-1 level dogfight, it's superior to the SE 5...

I disagree entirely. If the SE5a pilot were foolish enough to enter into a turn-fight with the DR1, then he would die, no doubt, but that doesn't compute to the conclusion you arrive at.

 

The SE5a pilot must fight to the plane's strength, speed to extend and climb, then a great diving attack. The only chance the Dr1 and pilot have is to keep turning underneath and avoid snap shots as much as possible and hopefully get in a critical hit when the opportunity appears.

 

Funny enough, this describes what happened to Voss. As mentioned, his only out would have been clouds, but even then, with 6 after you, they could cover all escapes.

 

In OFF I think we've all been in tight spots, if not yer not having fun! A good tactic when outnumbered is to try to get over a friendly aerodrome and let the AA machine guns even it up a bit (the last few patches have made the AAA now useless at any altitude, and that sucks). Or just land with yer tail (or other parts) between yer legs.

[Hauksbee 103]

I know I'll get heat for this...but I do often wonder if MvR was the best...

 

Everything I've read about MvR indicates that he was an OK student, and a methodical hunter, but not what we'd call a 'natural stick-and-rudder' pilot. He was, however, a very good marksman and could pull off brilliant deflection shots and frequently brought down planes with a handful of bullets.

 

One history of the war in the air put it this way, [paraphrased], "WWI saw three generations of pilots, or better, three successive waves. First were the Pioneers, because they were the only ones who could fly. They did not last long. Next came the Romantics. These created the "Knights of the Skies" legends: the lone hunter, mano-a-mano duels at 10,000, and chivalrous Udet-Guynemer gestures. They were quickly superceded by the Professionals to whom flying was a job and group tactics became the order of the day."

 

The author [might have been Charles Gibbs-Smith] cited von Richtofen as the very embodiment of the Professionals. There was nothing flashy about him or his flying. You'd think that with 80 kills, there'd be a host of stories about his encounters, but the only one I've heard much about is his duel with Lanoe Hawker. He did not seek a white-knuckle flying, look-your-opponent-in-the-eye encounter. The Professionals came to the realization that only a jerk seeks a fair fight.

 

So if we could set up a one-on-one with a Voss, Mannoick or a Rickenbacker, MvR might easily come off second best.

[OvS 8]

I disagree entirely. If the SE5a pilot were foolish enough to enter into a turn-fight with the DR1, then he would die, no doubt, but that doesn't compute to the conclusion you arrive at.

 

The SE5a pilot must fight to the plane's strength, speed to extend and climb, then a great diving attack. The only chance the Dr1 and pilot have is to keep turning underneath and avoid snap shots as much as possible and hopefully get in a critical hit when the opportunity appears.

 

Funny enough, this describes what happened to Voss. As mentioned, his only out would have been clouds, but even then, with 6 after you, they could cover all escapes.

 

In OFF I think we've all been in tight spots, if not yer not having fun! A good tactic when outnumbered is to try to get over a friendly aerodrome and let the AA machine guns even it up a bit (the last few patches have made the AAA now useless at any altitude, and that sucks). Or just land with yer tail (or other parts) between yer legs.

 

Really, no matter what plane you have that might have a strength against another... if you have many of the weaker planes to fight against you being solo... you're going to die.

 

You could take the Dr.1 vs the SE5a and have the Dr.1 in a victory over the SE5a hands down. But dealing with 12 machine guns (6x2), six planes flown by ace level pilots, and you in a slower plane... his superior flying skills are what made the fight last as long as it did.

 

Had Voss survived the length of the war, he would have been the top ace over MvR. MvR would have racked kills like crazy in the D.VII.

 

So as a total hypothetical, Voss and Mannock surving the war... and Bishop's kills being truthful...

 

Top six: Voss, MvR, Mannock, Fonck, Udet, Collishaw.

 

OvS

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

I'd have to agree. Six-to-one is not the most cheerful odds, but Voss still had a strong hand and eveything said, 'Get in close'. The Dr.I is not the plane for a hasty retreat. Besides, Voss was really young and I suspect just a bit full of himself, He was 20, a top-scoring ace, a Pour le Merit holder, he'd been given a prototype plane by Fokker, he had 10 kills in it, and before McCudden came on the scene, [if we can believe the History Channel] he had put two SE-5's out of the fight. There's no way to prove it, of course, but I don't think Voss saw it as a hopeless situation. We, on the other hand, know the outcome and wonder 'what was he thinking?'

 

Hauksbee,

 

If you read "High in the empty Blue" by Alex Revell which is incidentally an excellent history of 56 squadron in WW1 Voss sent Cronyn out of the fight with a badly shot up SE5a and Muspratt out with a bullet in his radiator, I personally would count that as proof that Voss put 2 SE5A's out of the fight, I understand why you are sceptical about the history channel, but on this occasion they are right.

 

OVS, you have forgotten to include Mannock in your list of aces who were better than MVR, consider the facts, Mannock had a defective eye and thus had no real depth perception compared to other pilots, he also looked after his flight, he was apparently a devil for an opposing pilot to shake off when he was pursuing them (admittedly this may be a bit of hero worship from Ira 'Taffy' Jones).

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

[Hauksbee 103]

MvR would have racked kills like crazy in the D.VII.

 

Amen to that.

[Hasse Wind 46]

We as OFF players can learn one important thing from Voss' final fight: lone wolf missions are a bad idea. Never go into combat without comrades to watch your back.

[Bandy 3]

We as OFF players can learn one important thing from Voss' final fight: lone wolf missions are a bad idea. Never go into combat without comrades to watch your back.

 

Ah, where's the fun in that? It may be reality, of that I have no doubt, but I'm playing this game (and others very much like it...) to escape and be an intrepid hero. Foolish I have no doubt. But the scraps and escapes I could talk about would make me seem a blatant braggart, but what sweet personal memories. Playing it safe is not my style, at least in the virtual skies, perhaps that's why I gravitate towards the dashing RFC!

 

OvS wrote:

So as a total hypothetical, Voss and Mannock surving the war... and Bishop's kills being truthful...

Hey, to a Canadian those are fighting words! Many years ago a Crown Commission cleared Bishop of those unfounded accusations. They stemmed from some upstart media type who wanted to make a name for themself by taking an icon down. Totally baseless accusation, but apparently the lies endure. You'd better apologize