Mig-17 maneuverability and FM

[+guyran 13]

On August 12, 1968, two Syrian Mig-17 had landed in Israel by mistake.

The Mig-17 has been thoroughly examined by the Israeli Air Force. Dani Shapira the chief test pilot of the IAF revealed: The Mig-17 has superb maneuverability at low speed, better than any other airplane of the era, up to 350 knots. Above that speed the stick becomes stiff, and above 600 knots it was nearly impossible to move the stick at all. Dani Shapira had advised the IAF pilots to engage the Mig-17 only above 400 knots.

[Carlos_Tex 2]

This should be modelled in thirdwire sims because it seems the Mig-17 is extremely manouverable at any speeds a FM revision should be made

[+Brain32 265]

The problem is not only at high speed, but since AI flies at normal MiG-17's are pulling insane early WW2 style turns at 220-240kmh that's why they are so hard to kill but easy not to be killed by...

[+guyran 13]

This should be modelled in thirdwire sims because it seems the Mig-17 is extremely manouverable at any speeds a FM revision should be made

 

FM revision was made recently by Migbuster.

I'm waiting his response.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Above 600 knots? Above 480 indicated, the MiG-17 begins to wing warp to one side or the other. Above 495-500, an uncontrolled dutch roll begins. Above 500 knots, it requires inhuman strength to work the stick in the pitch axis. Between 250-450 knots nothing in the air back then, could touch her. There's a series one FM that I created that mimics all that behavior, BTW.

 

http://area51specialprojects.com/video/hav...ll_tactical.swf

 

[Gr.Viper 131]

600 and 350 knots at what altitude? Real Frescos had different control response at low and high altitudes, the planes themselves were differently built (ah, the Soviet industry) and the stick went stiff for roll and pitch control at different speed. Hydraulic boosters were enough for subsonic flight, though.

 

MiG-17 Flight Manual says that if the plane starts to roll spontaneously at speed lower than 1060 km/h IAS (572 knots) at 1000 m and it cannot be compensated by slight stick deflection, the plane must be returned to factory for readjustment. Were any of the test Frescos brought there?

[Fubar512 1,350]

600 and 350 knots at what altitude? Real Frescos had different control response at low and high altitudes, the planes themselves were differently built (ah, the Soviet industry) and the stick went stiff for roll and pitch control at different speed. Hydraulic boosters were enough for subsonic flight, though.

 

MiG-17 Flight Manual says that if the plane starts to roll spontaneously at speed lower than 1060 km/h IAS (572 knots) at 1000 m and it cannot be compensated by slight stick deflection, the plane must be returned to factory for readjustment. Were any of the test Frescos brought there?

 

During the Vietnam war, an A-6A evaded a Fresco by accelerating to 550 knots, and rolling away. The Fresco could not follow the manuever. In another after action report, an F-4 pilot watched in amusement as a Fresco tried to stay with a fleeing A-4, and then began rolling out of control (from wing warp). The Fresco pilot managed to regain control just above the treetops, and decided to refrain from any further action.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Nam climate isn't exactly the best place to store aircraft, so stock preformance obviously takes a hit. Maybe TK could make fresh and worn variant for Fresco

Secondly, roll controll goes siff earlier that elevators. Incredibly so if plane goes supersonic below 5000m. Also pulling g requires extra 0,8kg of pressure on the stick per unit, due to balancer.

Another feature is that al low altitiude at speed over 800km/h elevator controls become extremely sensitive and require very gentle input and skill, otherwise the pilot can pull extremely high and then panic and push negaive g in a few moments. Perhaps damaging airframe.

[MigBuster 2,884]

There is a lot of conflicting reports it seems - GV has provided the flight manual (in Russian)- which is going to be fairly accurate - although doesn't mean it wasn't written before some of the other issues were found out in combat I guess!

 

It does confirm that some MiG-17Fs had all boosted controls - but this doesnt eliminate the force and effort required to move the stick at speed - which may explain why slightly built VPAF pilots avoided such encounters.

 

One thing that I suspected was out was the climb performance in which I can go from 2000ft clean (at 400KIAS) to 17000ft in about 24 seconds (~70degree pull up) - the F-4C/D in clean and the same test beats this be maybe 2 seconds ??

 

The manual and other sources confirm its max climb times as 0 to 16600ft in around 2.1 minutes (clean)

 

see last 2 pages here http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p...91&start=88

[Gr.Viper 131]

although doesn't mean it wasn't written before some of the other issues were found out in combat I guess!

:yes: Check out it's cover. 1955. Before the sun, rain and mosquitos of SEA.

http://www.aviation.ru/Leonid.Mehanikov/Mi..._Flight_Manual/

[MigBuster 2,884]

The problem is not only at high speed, but since AI flies at normal MiG-17's are pulling insane early WW2 style turns at 220-240kmh that's why they are so hard to kill but easy not to be killed by...

 

 

tbh I thought the over optimistic MiG performance was there to give people more of a challenge so i wasnt too bothered - there are ways to beat them still - but there were some ridiculous things I observed that totally went against everything else Id seen written - so if various test pilots / projects and people who encountered them in combat tell me you had to be superman to turn the thing over a particular speed I would tend to go with that to some degree.

[Ali Elhaddad 0]

Re: Mig-17 Re: Mig-17 First thing i have a great admiration to iaf test pilots like Danny shapira who examined every small nail in each aircraft they had,

second this story i hsvr heared before like 8 years ago :) im already a big fan

and it came to my mind like 6 days ago, if modelling the wings over israel mig17 matches the story or it does not... but i remembered that the aircraft maneuvers well at all speeds even the very high ones... despite modelling it to match the story would be fun, but it will make it quite harder, and it will give u the task of fighting like hit and run... like EAf used the mig17 during the war for

unlike the Vietnamese people air force who used their mig in a tough way to head off the Crusader and the F-4

though i heared also of some stories regarding numerous claims of EAF against IAF f-4 and mirageIII planes, but very few claims, gun cams are present, i have seen some of them....

please do some modelling to make the story match wings over israel and not the opposite

Edited August 2, 2009 by Ali Elhaddad

[+guyran 13]

Re: Mig-17 Re: Mig-17 First thing i have a great admiration to iaf test pilots like Danny shapira who examined every small nail in each aircraft they had,

second this story i hsvr heared before like 8 years ago :) im already a big fan

and it came to my mind like 6 days ago, if modelling the wings over israel mig17 matches the story or it does not... but i remembered that the aircraft maneuvers well at all speeds even the very high ones... despite modelling it to match the story would be fun, but it will make it quite harder, and it will give u the task of fighting like hit and run... like EAf used the mig17 during the war for

unlike the Vietnamese people air force who used their mig in a tough way to head off the Crusader and the F-4

though i heared also of some stories regarding numerous claims of EAF against IAF f-4 and mirageIII planes, but very few claims, gun cams are present, i have seen some of them....

please do some modelling to make the story match wings over israel and not the opposite

 

Welcome Ali to the forum (Marhaba). This is your first post here.

 

Maybe, as an Egyptian, you have some records of EAF Mig-17 pilots, who actually flight the Mig-17 in the 60's, regarding the behavior of the aircraft at high speed.

 

BTW, is it a Mig pilot's helmet or Mirage?

[Caesar 305]

LtCol "Jose" Oberle, who flew the MiG-17 with the 4477th said of the plane:

 

"We had to teach them [the pilots being exposed] that if they could - as a defender in an American airplane - get the MiG-17 into the 450-knot regime, and then start to turn, then the MiG pilot would have to overcome this huge aerodynamic load on the tail without any hydraulic assistance. He may have had the potential to pull 7Gs, but he could probably pull no more than 2Gs because he simply didn't have the physical strength to overcome the loads on the tail. In order to get the best turn, the MiG-17 pilot had to decelerate into the 300-330-knot regime, that was ideal for the MiG-17...Out at 450 knots it was more of a lead sled." (Red Eagles, p.121)

[Ali Elhaddad 0]

its actually a mig-21/23/25 helmet

the mig17 had a leather helmet that covered the head and ears(black) it resembled the wwII helmet

 

i remember when the regime of baghdad toppled and us marines quitely invaded baghdad, there was an ancedote where they found in the baghdad

museum/ military museum a square glass cover for an israeli mirage helmet stained with blood related to six days war, and the israeli ambassador somewhere was called to recieve it himself

it was related that he hold the helmet and said: " when one see things like that, he feels a cold shiver down the back of neck

 

this was all about 8 months when i read that in Egypt main news paper "Alahram of which site is : ahram.org.eg

 

in the following pics

 

a picture of israeli ace giora rom( elevation)

and the picture of egyptian ace sameh marey that was downed on his 5th kill on 26 feb-70 (side view)

Edited August 3, 2009 by Ali Elhaddad

[Ali Elhaddad 0]

Here its the full story from internet

 

Thirty-six years after four Israeli air force pilots were shot down while on a flight mission in Iraq during the Six Day War, a helmet that may have belonged to one of the men, and which was on display in a Baghdad museum, was returned to Israel, Yediot Achronot

 

 

On the third day of the Six Day War, June 7, 1967, Iraqi military forces shot down the planes of pilots Shlomo Keren, Alexander Metzger, Yitzhak Glanz and Gideon Dror while on a mission in Iraq. Keren and Metzger were killed while Glanz and Dror were captured and later released. The Air Force is investigating if the helmet discovered in the Baghdad museum belonged to one of the men.

 

U.S. military forces discovered the helmet next to a scrap of metal bearing the traditional blue Star of David insignia of the Israeli air force which may have been a piece of wreckage from one of the planes. The interior of the helmet displayed a sticker reading: "Pilot Helmet Model HGU/2A-P; Manufactured: 1966; Size: Large; Number 16631; Oz Plastics, Azor Industrial Area." It is thought that the Iraqis exhibited the helmet as an example of war plunder after defeating the Israeli pilots.

 

The helmet was transferred through the Israeli embassy in Jordan and when it arrived at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem, it created a lot of excitement. "Holding something like this in your hands makes you shiver. You can actually see the blood stains," said a senior official. The helmet was then forwarded to the Ministry of Defense in Tel-Aviv and from there it will be transferred to the Missing In Action section of the Air Force to try to reveal the helmet's true owner.

 

The four pilots had been dispatched to attack the Iraqi air force base H-3 in western Iraq after Israeli intelligence learned that the Egyptians had asked the Iraqis to attack IDF bases in Ramat David and Hatzor. Four "Miraz" planes from the Air Force's first jet squadron escorted four "Wotor" planes from the "Northern Knights" squadron. Jordanian radar discovered the planes en route and alerted Iraqi forces. Iraqi "Hunter" planes awaited the Israeli aircraft and managed to severely disrupt the attack, shooting down two "Wotor" planes and one "Miraz" fighter.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Ali Elhaddad

[Derk 265]

LtCol "Jose" Oberle, who flew the MiG-17 with the 4477th said of the plane:

 

"We had to teach them [the pilots being exposed] that if they could - as a defender in an American airplane - get the MiG-17 into the 450-knot regime, and then start to turn, then the MiG pilot would have to overcome this huge aerodynamic load on the tail without any hydraulic assistance. He may have had the potential to pull 7Gs, but he could probably pull no more than 2Gs because he simply didn't have the physical strength to overcome the loads on the tail. In order to get the best turn, the MiG-17 pilot had to decelerate into the 300-330-knot regime, that was ideal for the MiG-17...Out at 450 knots it was more of a lead sled." (Red Eagles, p.121)

 

 

Funny thing is that AFAIK the MiG 17 was developed from the MiG 15 in order to get better high subsonic and transsonic behaviour. According to Mike Spick ("Jet Fighter Performance") the Russkies succeeded quite well. Reading all the posts however he must have been mistaken and the MiG 15 must have been something really horrible...... .

It looks like a miracle that the designers weren't shot or ar least kicked into the Gulag Archipel by Uncle Josef or his successors......

Interesting just the same !! Gonna do some more Fresco flying.......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

Edited August 3, 2009 by Derk

[Derk 265]

Funny thing is that AFAIK the MiG 17 was developed from the MiG 15 in order to get better high subsonic and transsonic behaviour. According to Mike Spick ("Jet Fighter Performance") the Russkies succeeded quite well. Reading all the posts however he must have been mistaken and the MiG 15 must have been something really horrible...... .

It looks like a miracle that the designers weren't shot or ar least kicked into the Gulag Archipel by Uncle Josef or his successors......

Interesting just the same !! Gonna do some more Fresco flying.......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

 

 

Having flown the Fresco again (WOE), the designers SHOULD be in Siberia .......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

[+guyran 13]

Having flown the Fresco again (WOE), the designers SHOULD be in Siberia .......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

 

Siberia is not far enough.

I had the far side of the moon in mind....

[Caesar 305]

Well, I wouldn't consider the MiG-17 a bad airplane at all. Just don't get into a fast fight with it, try to drag the speed down and turn with the enemy. The 4477th found both the Fresco and the Fishbed to be vicious planes when they were handled well, so I think the designers needn't be shot. The Flogger on the other hand...

[Derk 265]

The 4477th found both the Fresco and the Fishbed to be vicious planes when they were handled well, so I think the designers needn't be shot. The Flogger on the other hand...

 

OK. flogged then, but severely.

Wonder though what the progress was compared with the MiG 15 (more stable gun platform maybe) and weren't there more simple solutions for something that only performed well at something like 300 - 350 kts ? A prop fighter could almost do that......

Maybe I'm gonna look a bit more into some different flight models from the archive, because I can hardly imagine that in real life the Fresco completly refused to pitch up and roll at speeds over 450 kts......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

[Fubar512 1,350]

Maybe I'm gonna look a bit more into some different flight models from the archive, because I can hardly imagine that in real life the Fresco completly refused to pitch up and roll at speeds over 450 kts......

 

Derk, if you can find a copy of the book, "Scream of Eagles" ( http://www.amazon.com/Scream-Eagles-Dramat...r/dp/0743497244 ), I suggest that you read it. It devotes literally an entire chapter to the MiG-17F, specifically, to one flown by Top Gun instructors (and yes, they used it to surprise a few students, too). Their take on the subject makes for some rather interesting reading...

[+Jarhead1 27]

I have that book too Ed. AWESOME READ

[Derk 265]

Derk, if you can find a copy of the book, "Scream of Eagles" ( http://www.amazon.com/Scream-Eagles-Dramat...r/dp/0743497244 ), I suggest that you read it. It devotes literally an entire chapter to the MiG-17F, specifically, to one flown by Top Gun instructors (and yes, they used it to surprise a few students, too). Their take on the subject makes for some rather interesting reading...

 

Thanks for the tip Fubar. Guess that maybe the designers of the Fresco should be decorated by the West ?

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

[+guyran 13]

I wonder if I change the Mig-17 FM by replacing the ...data.ini file with modified one.

Does the change take effect only when I fly the Mig-17, or also for AI driven Migs, when they are my enemy?