Loss of pilot

[carrick58 23]

Well Alvin York in 40 RFC sgn didnt last long. Flying a N-17 Lewis gun he avoided a flight of 4 Albati D-2s But fell victim to the newly arrived at the front Albatri D-3s. They came quickly out of the sun 3 of the V strutters . Alvin s wingman went 1st as the a/c was ripped apart by machine gun fire it staggered and fell smokeing into the tree line below ,then it was Alvins turn caught between two of the black bodied with a white strip in the center a/c. Both firing, his N-17 took 16 -24 hits all at one time clack clack went the motor, then smoke, then RED as he went into the trees. 5.8 hrs flt time and hes gone. Gotta try the Dark Side next time.

[Bullethead 12]

5.8 hrs flt time and hes gone.

 

5.8 hours ain't bad. It's when you lose them in 0.25 hours that you really hate it...

 

Gotta try the Dark Side next time.

 

The Dark Side has no national boundaries--it transcends mere arbitrary lines drawon on the map by humans. It trascends the solar system, even the Local Group galaxy cluster. The Dark Side is the manifestation of the Hate that all living things naturally feel for all other living things, and the Rage that necessarily accompanies the Hate, due to not being the only living thing in the universe. Feel the Hate flow and become One with it.

 

Using the Power of the Dark Side, you will master the art of Energy Fighting. Only those whose Hate is pure, and who can condense their Rage down to an icy ball to hold in their hand like a weapon, can wield an E-fighter effectively, preying on the pathetic turn-fighters. The country of origin of your E-fighter is immaterial; all that matters is the Hate that makes the machine an extension of your terrible will.

 

But remember, it is written that "the Path of the Wicked must be the hardest, so that the Wicked may become the Hardest." Do not expect to gain power in the Dark Side without much pain and suffering. The Dark Side is fueled by Hate and Rage, and only by experiencing much bitter failure can the neophyte generate the necessary Hate and Rage to become a master E-fighter.

 

Sanguis bibimus

Corpus edibus

 

Here endeth the lesson. All Power and Glory to the Dark Side.

[carrick58 23]

your right and I have loss some after and on the 2nd flt. Started flying FE2B s . However, those D-3 s due look nice.

[Olham 164]

Did he make you afraid now, Carrick? (He must love that - Lol!)

Well, as he said - the "dark side" is not fixed or limited to a specific country.

You can be on the dark side everywhere - or you don't.

So let that not keep you from trying the DIII or any other Albatros - they are great fighters,

when you do the RIGHT things in them. They are not purely energy fighters, but rather a

pretty good mix of energy and turn fighter. Not perfect on either of these - but so good

on both, that you can beat any enemy craft of the same time.

When you do the right things, and avoid, what is wrong.

 

Search for the Dicta Boelcke in the web or here, in the Tips & Cheats or where it was.

And follow those rules, if you want to live.

[zoomzoom 2]

Go to the light Carrick!! Hop in an Albatros and kick some "A"! In heaven everyone owns one.

 

ZZ.

[Bullethead 12]

Started flying FE2B s .

 

Ah, good. You will learn much of Hate and Rage flying that beast .

[Duce Lewis 3]

Ah, good. You will learn much of Hate and Rage flying that beast .

And I thought the Dark Side was when you commence flying OFF after dinner and don't quit til 2:00 AM!!!

Grab a glass o' wine to help you sleep

Get up at 5:00 AM to go to work

All that day you're flying on the Dark Side!

[Bullethead 12]

And I thought the Dark Side was when you commence flying OFF after dinner and don't quit til 2:00 AM!!!Grab a glass o' wine to help you sleep. Get up at 5:00 AM to go to work

All that day you're flying on the Dark Side!

 

Hehehe.....

 

Well, it was beaten into me 15 years ago or so, when I started flying DOS Air Warrior, that the Force is with the turn-fighters but the Dark Side is with the E-fighters. The whole "Dark Side" thing about E-fighting had already become well-entrenched by 1994 (DOS AW had been going since 1987).

[Olham 164]

The Dark Side usually builds up an impressive image. Great uniforms, great weapons,

great and dark technology. Here is some fun made of that:

 

 

Enjoy!

[Duce Lewis 3]

Hehehe.....

 

Well, it was beaten into me 15 years ago or so, when I started flying DOS Air Warrior, that the Force is with the turn-fighters but the Dark Side is with the E-fighters. The whole "Dark Side" thing about E-fighting had already become well-entrenched by 1994 (DOS AW had been going since 1987).

OK, I'll accept that ...but what about the 3rd combt mode?

The jock who takes his less turning mount into the vertical to defeat his more agile opponent

Not B&Z as there is no climbing/extending away, contact is maintained at all times in the DF

[Bullethead 12]

OK, I'll accept that ...but what about the 3rd combt mode? The jock who takes his less turning mount into the vertical to defeat his more agile opponent

Not B&Z as there is no climbing/extending away, contact is maintained at all times in the DF

 

That's what E-fighting is. Many folks think B&Z is "energy fighting", but they're wrong. There are 3 ways to fight:

 

1. Turn/stall/dweeb-fighting: Done mostly in the horizontal and nose-low turns at or below corner velocity. Totally sells out on speed and altitude in pursuit of angles. This is the most intuitive type of dogfighting and is best done in planes too wimpy to do anything else: Pups, Nupes, Zekes, early Spits, Hurricanes, etc.

 

2. Boom & Zoom: The complete opposite of the above. Never sacrifice any energy and keep your speed as high as possible. Come screaming in and take a shot at whatever angle if you have one, but if you don't have a shot right in front of you don't turn more then 20-30^ to get one. Extend into the next county before daring to reverse. This is done by people who don't have a clue. They hardly ever die, but they only kill those who are AFK for another beer while climbing on autopilot deep in their own territory.

 

3. Energy-fighting: Done almost entirely in the vertical. Using the vertical to get angles while sacrificing the minimum amount of energy. Best done in high-speed, low-drag planes that mostly don't turn worth a damn. The hardest style to master because it's the least intuitive and requies the most finesse. Anybody can yank and bank, but not everybody can do a high yoyo with minimum E loss and still have it come out in a good place for a killing shot.

[OvS 8]

Well Alvin York in 40 RFC sgn didnt last long. Flying a N-17 Lewis gun he avoided a flight of 4 Albati D-2s But fell victim to the newly arrived at the front Albatri D-3s. They came quickly out of the sun 3 of the V strutters . Alvin s wingman went 1st as the a/c was ripped apart by machine gun fire it staggered and fell smokeing into the tree line below ,then it was Alvins turn caught between two of the black bodied with a white strip in the center a/c. Both firing, his N-17 took 16 -24 hits all at one time clack clack went the motor, then smoke, then RED as he went into the trees. 5.8 hrs flt time and hes gone. Gotta try the Dark Side next time.

 

 

Muhahahahahahaha!!! Die Krumpet!!!!!

[Duce Lewis 3]

1. Turn/stall/dweeb-fighting: Done mostly in the horizontal and nose-low turns at or below corner velocity. Totally sells out on speed and altitude in pursuit of angles. This is the most intuitive type of dogfighting and is best done in planes too wimpy to do anything else: Pups, Nupes, Zekes, early Spits, Hurricanes, etc.

 

2. Boom & Zoom: The complete opposite of the above. Never sacrifice any energy and keep your speed as high as possible. Come screaming in and take a shot at whatever angle if you have one, but if you don't have a shot right in front of you don't turn more then 20-30^ to get one. Extend into the next county before daring to reverse. This is done by people who don't have a clue. They hardly ever die, but they only kill those who are AFK for another beer while climbing on autopilot deep in their own territory.

 

3. Energy-fighting: Done almost entirely in the vertical. Using the vertical to get angles while sacrificing the minimum amount of energy. Best done in high-speed, low-drag planes that mostly don't turn worth a damn. The hardest style to master because it's the least intuitive and requies the most finesse. Anybody can yank and bank, but not everybody can do a high yoyo with minimum E loss and still have it come out in a good place for a killing shot.

OK, highlighted text is why I assumed you meant B&Z

 

Dogfights Series is what opened my eyes to the Vertical Realm

Not prop episodes but the Vietnam dogfights

Great turn fighter Mig 17-21's vs great vertical performer F4 Phantom

 

For me though, excellent power to weight ratio and strong ailerons make the best vertical performer

Not WWI's premier qualities by a long shot but everything's relative

Aurther Raymond Brooks solo fight in his Spad 13 vs 8 DVII's exemplifies this

Not important whether he shot down 1, 4, or 100

Only way he could survive this dogfight had to be with vertical tactics

Sadly, Brooks having long passed, this Dogfights episode really didn't showcase this very well

[Bullethead 12]

Dogfights Series is what opened my eyes to the Vertical Realm

 

Yeah, that's often pretty good.

 

You should really read Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, by Robert Shaw. He goes into guns-only energy tactics in great detail.

 

As you say, however, few WW1 planes can really do this. E-fighting relies heavily setting the target up for the kill over 2 or 3 passes, and on getting yourself out of effective range of the enemy before he can turn around and shoot you. In WW1, most planes don't keep E well enough to go this long, and many planes turn so fast that they can get a shot off at you before you're out of range. SPADs and Brisfits are the best at it IMHO. The D.VII is also good but has less speed and more zoom, so has to be handled somewhat differently, all the while fighting the impulse to turn hard and blow E, which you CAN do pretty well, but it's hard to get that speed back in the middle of a big fight.

[Duce Lewis 3]

Yeah, that's often pretty good.

 

You should really read Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, by Robert Shaw. He goes into guns-only energy tactics in great detail.

 

As you say, however, few WW1 planes can really do this. E-fighting relies heavily setting the target up for the kill over 2 or 3 passes, and on getting yourself out of effective range of the enemy before he can turn around and shoot you.

Book sounds good

What is Shaw's background?

 

One element of fighting in the vertical realm is that firing opportunities are fast and fleeting

Flight paths tend to be more perpendicular rather than following in trail

Like pool shootin, almost as important as setting up the pass, is the exit strategy to set-up the next pass

Extending away is not much of an option as WWI bullets are far faster than WWI planes

Good option is to attack out of the apex of his turn, pass, 1/2 loop right back above the apex of his turn

...Course that's assuming he's accomodating you by staying in his flat turn

[Bullethead 12]

Book sounds good

What is Shaw's background?

 

He was an instructor at the Top Gun school. This book is The Bible for real life fighter pilots around the world, and also all serious simmers.

 

I kinda know the guy. He used to fly with the crowd I hung with in DOS Air Warrior back in the 90s, so we winged a number of times. I've met him face to face several times at MMOFS conventions, where he's a frequent guest speaker, autographs everybody's copy of his book, and used to drink with us be he's on the wagon these days.

 

He also apologizes for the rather dry, technical way he wrote the book--it started as his doctoral thesis. IOW, he's got a PhD in ACM. Fighter Combat is a book you have to read a number of times to greally grok it. Sleeping with it under your pillow helps .

 

The book was written for real life, modern jet jockeys, so has a lot of stuff in it about lining up for missle shots. However, that's the last part of the book. He starts out with guns-only fights turning, then energy, then multi-bogey fights, wingman tactics, etc. That makes up the bulk of the book.

 

One element of fighting in the vertical realm is that firing opportunities are fast and fleeting

 

Yup. I really miss my "Werger" and the 4x 20mm of Hate . With that sort of firepower, you don't need very long on target to turn it into confetti...

[Duce Lewis 3]

He was an instructor at the Top Gun school. This book is The Bible for real life fighter pilots around the world, and also all serious simmers.

WHAT??? ...you mean Top Gun didn't teach:

Line him up on your 6

Hit the speed brake, he'll go right on by

Invert and go canopy to canopy with him?

 

Book looks real good

Here's a link to an on-line preview for those interested

http://books.google....page&q=&f=false

 

Last thought: Have you ever had the sensation that you're flying sideways?

The path to the Dark Side MUST be traversed ...sideways

[Bullethead 12]

Last thought: Have you ever had the sensation that you're flying sideways?

 

Pretty much every time I've flown the Eindecker and Pfalz. This sensation is immediately followed by the dejection of having to make another pilot.....

[Duce Lewis 3]

Pretty much every time I've flown the Eindecker and Pfalz. This sensation is immediately followed by the dejection of having to make another pilot.....

Ha ha!

 

I recently posted in the "Stories from the Front" Sticky

1 of the Camels went vertical and we had quite a tussle

At 1 point we'd passed (on top) and were both descending for another pass down low

Flying alone at 6k ft there was no speed sensation from the ground and our relative speeds and direction were roughly the same

All that was left was our horizontal (sideways) movements relative to each other

Looking to Starboard as we converged, sliding under him, and watched him egres to Port was downright weird

Felt like we should both stall, but of course we were still full throttle forward all the time

Edited September 5, 2009 by Duce Lewis

[Hasse Wind 46]

Shaw's book is definitely recommended reading for any serious simmer. If I'd have to choose only one book to read about fighter tactics, that would be it.

 

But speaking of losing pilots, I've come to learn 1918 is a terrible year to fly in when the major spring offensives begin. My current D.VII pilot has made a crash landing five times, but has yet somehow managed to stay alive. The action is really heavy on the northern part of the front, it's almost impossible to not meet some enemies when flying missions there. I just had a fight with my 4 D.VII's against 10 SE5a's - not exactly good for the health of my pilot...

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Bullethead, by your definition of energy fighting, planes like the Camel, DR1, and Tripe are also outstanding choices, as an experienced pilot will nearly always use these planes at max retention of energy while climbing the fight at every opportunity to try and get the alt advantage. Yes, they will all turn on a dime and give you change, but only the uninitiated will use that ability in the horizontal alone. A good Camel jockey or DR.1 driver will be climbing, pivoting over on a wingtip, diving down, twisting and turning, then sailing back into the vertical, clawing for that last little bit of height over his opponent, and all the while trying to keep that elusive energy at the optimum. Granted, these planse fly at a lower energy state in general than other more powerful aircraft, but flying them to maximize that energy is still what it's all about. So by the criteria in your post, they are energy fighters.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Bullethead 12]

Bullethead, by your definition of energy fighting, planes like the Camel, DR1, and Tripe are also outstanding choices, as an experienced pilot will nearly always use these planes at max retention of energy while climbing the fight at every opportunity to try and get the alt advantage.

It's not my definition, it's Shaw's, and therefore is Gospel . But the important thing is, he uses it, as do I, in terms of tactics, not airplanes. IIRC, I said above that there were "3 ways to fight", not 3 types of airplanes, nor that a given plane is locked into a particular style.

 

Granted, these planse fly at a lower energy state in general than other more powerful aircraft, but flying them to maximize that energy is still what it's all about. So by the criteria in your post, they are energy fighters.

 

The pilot is the true E-fighter, not the plane, because E-fighting is a style. If the pilot knowns E tactics, then he'll use them if he thinks the situation warrants. Of course some planes do 1 style much better than another, which influences the choice of tactics by the wise pilot. And while an experienced Dr.I pilot will of course hang onto his E as best he can when fighting, say, a SPAD, he always knows that he's less likely to beat the SPAD playing the SPAD's game than he is getting the SPAD to play his game. So when it comes down to it, the Dr.I pilot will always be looking for ways to turn on in on the SPAD, because that's where he's got the biggest advantage.

 

ACM is very much a martial art. I liken turn-fighting to the "hard" styles like Tae Kwon Do, because when you get down to it, it's pretty much brute force and ignorance. I liken E-tactics to the "soft" styles like Jujitsu, requiring much more patience and finesse, using the enemy's own moves against him and thinking further ahead in the fight.

[SouthPaw. 0]

Well Alvin York in 40 RFC sgn didnt last long. {snip} 5.8 hrs flt time and hes gone.

 

I lost an American SPAD VII pilot on takeoff on his very first mission - didn't even get my wheels more than a foot off the ground. Apparently either I was veering right or my wingman was veering left and our planes collided on the airfield.

[Olham 164]

So we do seem to start from different positions, South Paw.

Cause you had a wingman right of you.

No matter which craft and side I fly, I always start from the outer right position.

That makes it rather easy for me - never had a starting accident.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Bullethead, I agree that the pilot is the "E" fighter, the closing point in my previous post was worded incorrectly. And I also realize you were reiterating Shaw's criteria, so again my apologies for making it sound like it was your definition. My point was and is that any plane with a relatively fast rate of climb can be used for "E" fighting, (by Shaw's definition). That's not to say certain planes aren't better for this, clearly they are. But you can jump into your DR1, and emulate the same high yo-yo as the Spad XIII, you just won't attain the same altitude from point of initiation in the DR1 as you will in the Spad, nor do it as quickly. However, the same tactic can be used and should be used against an opponent flying a plane of roughly equal capabilities. The problem I have with the three ways to fight as listed in your post is that it does not allow for the energy fighter who KNOWS how to turn and pivot in the horizontal while keeping track of his energy. A good Camel flyer can not only go sailing up to gain alt and wing over to drop back down on his opponent for a possible kill shot, but can also turn fight that same opponent when the situation dictates, and does so without burning off all his energy, stalling out, or presenting himself as a big, fat target. I find Shaw's definition of energy fighting to be much too narrow when talking about the Great War fighter aircraft.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou