Remorse and Air Combat

[zoomzoom 2]

Well, I just retired my first DIDW pilot in OFF with all the new patches. If you all will recall, my getting back into things was a bit hampered by lagging computer issues which you all masterfully assisted me in tweaking. Thanks again to you all.

 

This sim is phenomenal now....by the way.

 

Anyway, my German pilot...Wolfram, was well on his way to a great career. Over 10 hours, and an Iron Cross with the kills to go with it. Unfortunately he was still an "Gefrieter" and occaisionally had to go on missions and follow the lead of, lets say, lesser talented officers. I, "wanting to play realistically", follow the flight leads in these occaisions. Amazingly enough I have had flight leaders that acted as I would have, weaving our squad in and out of danger, avoiding outnumbering situations where possible....amazing that different flight leader chracteristics seem to be represented.

Well, on this particular sortie, FAR behind enemy lines....our particular flight leader with only 4 members in the squad, attacked a flight of five SPADS, dropping in on them far below, when we could have simply avoided the danger so far behind enemy lines. As we were descending, (I being tail end Charlie) looked up to see an ambush squad dropping onto my fellows ahead of me, another eight Spads...in a perfectly executed trap. I decided to assist my fellows, got sucked into the fight, my plane ended up thoroughly riddled, though I managed to put her down in a crash landing, and survived the war as a guest of the King.

This incident, other than amazing me at the realism now only heightened in this amazing Sim, made me wonder how many times in reality, this occured in WWI aviation, with pilots backing away from a trap (or bad judgement) that thier flight lead bungled them into, only to survive and feel remorse for not coming to the aid of thier friends, but making the right decision, highlighted by thier own survival. The one's that got "sucked in" to the bad judgement call, of course, have no tales to tell.

 

ZZ.

Edited September 14, 2009 by zoomzoom

[Bullethead 12]

This incident, other than amazing me at the realism now only heightened in this amazing Sim, made me wonder how many times in reality, this occured in WWI aviation, with pilots backing away from a trap (or bad judgement) that thier flight lead bungled them into, only to survive and feel remorse for not coming to the aid of thier friends, but making the right decision, highlighted by thier own survival. The one's that got "sucked in" to the bad judgement call, of course, have no tales to tell.

 

I imagine it happened frequently, but the folks who bravely ran away probably told a different story back at base. The lack of radar and interplane communications in WW1 greatly facilitated fudging on your report when you got home. Even if some of the more impetuous guys lived, they probably were in no position to tell what really happened, due to their attention being absorbed by the fight they were in. And of course, it was often the case in real life, and in OFF, that once your scrap is over, you find yourself all alone.

 

So what folks probably said in such situations was, I started in with the others, got cut off by more Huns diving on us, and was thus separated. It was several of them against 1 of me so I ran for it and managed to lose them.

 

Of course, if you made a habit of this, your squaddies will begin to suspect cold feet and might actually notice you sneaking away. So it would probably help to fly low over the trenches on the way back to pick up a few bullet holes to back up your story

[zoomzoom 2]

True,true. I also bet, if anyone of the foohardy "rushers in" survived, they had less than kind words to say about thier comrades who turned for safety. Makes me wonder if there was an understanding amongst pilots about expectations, and if they saw thier mates leaving, were understanding as to the fact that they simply didn't fall for the trap, and were avoiding almost certain and unnecesary death. Or, if there was acrimony and recrimination.

I remember readingone account in the 1st Pursuit Squad about a similar incident, but it seemed more like cowardice than common sense, that one pilot abandonded his friend, who later got back and defamed him quite arduously. Guess thats the tough judgement call though, there's a fine line between cowardice and courage.

 

ZZ.

Edited September 14, 2009 by zoomzoom

[Check Six 2]

You could do a "Billy Bishop" and claim that you were seperated, surrounded by 12 of them, then you....

 

Nah! I won't go into that.

 

[shredward 12]

That is exactly what happened to Raoul Lufbery. His wingman, Oscar Gude, who held back when Luf went after a two-seater, was a big hit on the East Coast cocktail circuit after the war, telling stories about his heroic time at the Front.

Cheers,

shredward

[Olham 164]

I have just recently asked Creaghorn about such situations in a PM.

Cause I never leave my wingmen alone and fight to the bitter end.

His answer was pretty wise - he said, if you would fly this sim as if it could REALLY cost your life,

you would act different.

Or to put it different: if an idiot gives an idiotic order, you can follow the order and the other sheep,

and die, or you would leave and have to have the inner strength to answer nasty questions later.

 

The remorse is a strange feeling. I read that even people, who cancelled a flight short before takeoff,

have bad feelings of remorse, when that plane then crashed - because everyone else is dead now.

[zoomzoom 2]

Thats a good point Olham. "survivors guilt" is just another of the elements in the bitter cocktail these young pilots had to deal with, and then try to get up and fly every morning with some sense of lucidity. Its an amazing testimony to thier skill,bravery....and focus.

 

"His answer was pretty wise - he said, if you would fly this sim as if it could REALLY cost your life,

you would act different."

What you mentioned here is great, and thats why I think DID is so great, because it pushes you more into that REAL mindframe, forcing those more realistic, tough decisions on you. You really have to give it a think.....albeit in a few split moments, before you rush in, or not. And again, the courage that the real pilots had to face, of either attacking and fighting for ones life, or facing down difficult questions later...was very real.

 

"That is exactly what happened to Raoul Lufbery"

 

Shred, was this incident the one where he was killed, jumped from his plane only to be impaled on a picket fence?

 

ZZ.

Edited September 14, 2009 by zoomzoom

[shredward 12]

Yep

[Creaghorn 10]

olham and i had a conversation about attitudes in such situations. and i told him that primarily the task was to survive, then to make a kill or whatever. i compared it like heavy weight boxers who punch and jab, but at the same time protect themselves with a tactical attitude. when a boxer is in a disadvantage, he'll step back and keep his opponent away, if he gains the momentum, he'll attack. when the round is over they'll seperate , seeya in the next round. IMHO a dogfight was similar. when you attack, then, you should always know when to retreat. if you have the advantage, then attack, if your momentum slips away, then run. in real very very often dogfights ended with nobody killed. both sides grouped together again and flew home, simply because beeing exhausted mentally (the thrill of somebody trying to kill you), physically because of the g-effects, because the engine overheated, running full all the time, gunjams, exhausted ammo... in a sim it's more like a streetfight or mexican lightweight boxing. no sense when to retreat and just an exchange of punches till one lies on the floor. AI will fight till one side is vanished. when i see a mate in trouble, i try to help, but when i'm surrounded by 10 tripes, i sense a disadvantage, then i run. BUT, as i told olham, for me it's not "running away" but a retreat together. since AI is not smart enough yet to seperate and leave the area without beeing an easy prey, i fly away alone to the moment i can warp. after warping, the survivors are in my formation again. so for me that's like regrouping and leaving the area together. but since it's not possible yet because of streetfight AI, i do it this way. so for me no remorse, but saving my squadron mates.

[Flyby PC 23]

Sometimes, doing the right thing just doesn't matter.

 

Most terrible example I've heard about was a WW2 Lancaster crew.

 

Badly shot up after a raid in 1944, the pilot gave the order for what was left of his crew to bail out once he knew he was over friendly territory. They thanked him for his bravery, forfeiting his life to hold the crippled plane steady while they could escape, and wished him luck before parachuting out of the aircraft. Alone without the lives of his crew to worry about, the pilot found he had no auto pilot and couldn't hold the aircraft steady long enough to make his own escape. Faced with Hobson's choice, he somehow nursed his badly damaged aircraft back over the North Sea, and crash landed on home soil.

 

Though he never found out until after the war, in all the commotion the Navigator had made a mistake, and the crew had actually bailed out over German territory. Worse, the crew to a man had met a rather grisly fate, being either shot or lynched by hostile crowds of German civilians.

 

 

I have more details in a book somewhere, but I forget which actual book, but it is a true story. Focuses the mind a bit.

 

Maybe no accident that fate is a four letter word.

 

"What did you do in the war Dad?"

 

"........Tell you when you're older son".

[zoomzoom 2]

I fly rather similarly to what you describe Creaghorn. But there have been a few occasions, when I felt somewhat obligated to help my mates in a jam, and not abandon them to save my skin. Those are the more tricky ones I'm referring to. Regardless of whether or not they aren't really dead "though shot down" and respawn next mission. In that moment, when you watch them get in "Too Deep" and have to make a call. If those were really my buddies getting shot up (or down ) over there, what should I do? Can I help really? Or will my getting involved at this point just put another kill in some enemies tally. Those are the life-like decisions that only a truly great Sim such as OFF can demand of a person, and invoke in its own way, the closest thing to being there.

 

ZZ.

 

PS....wow...poingant story flyby. We can only do the best we can. I often think that if the armchair generals and second guessers who so often villify brave people, and who never have experienced such complicated times as conflict can produce, had to see it first hand, they would be considerably more lenient in thier judgement of the people involved.

Edited September 14, 2009 by zoomzoom

[Flyby PC 23]

And just another twist in the light of Creaghorn's post - If you want more guilt about flying in a Sim, go down the multiplayer route, (with Teamspeak).

 

 

I remember once with the Boys of 60 when I was flying escort, I dallied too long having fun dogfighting bandits. Suddenly, the guys flying the bombers towards their target were bounced again by a different flight of enemy fighters and had not one escort fighter in sight. I can't believe how bad I felt. I was diving, full power, doing everything to catch up, but resigned to my mistake. There was nothing I could do. I know it's just a sim, with guys flying for fun, but in a parrallel world, my error would have got people killed.

[Olham 164]

Well, Flyby - in reality it might not have been possible to leave the dogfight,

if the 1. enemy fightergroup's task was exactly that: to keep you away from the bombers.

That happened, and the greatest heroe can't be everywhere.

[carrick58 23]

I thought that was why we have wingmen. To leave em for the Lawnmowers as we make our escape

[Duce Lewis 3]

Speaks to OFF's immersion level that we're having this discussion

Creaghorn's advice works well

I stay high in the fight but often spot wingies in trouble down low

If the scrap is about even, I'll dive to their aid

It's a tough decision when the odds turn bad and you spot some poor sod below swarmed by 3 or 4

Turning for home (as a suicidal dive is senseless) sure leaves a bad feeling

How many times did RL pilots had to make that choice?

And how many scotches did it take to push it outta your mind?

[Olham 164]

Yes, that is a great advice, Creaghorn. I will use that in future.

[zoomzoom 2]

Excellent synopsis Duce.

 

ZZ.

[Flyby PC 23]

Well, Flyby - in reality it might not have been possible to leave the dogfight,

if the 1. enemy fightergroup's task was exactly that: to keep you away from the bombers.

That happened, and the greatest heroe can't be everywhere.

 

Too true. The Sim-Outhouse had a real veteran tail gunner from a Lancaster who confirmed exactly that. Me262's would blast through the bomber formations, so the escorting P-51's would tear off after them, only for a co-ordinated attack of FW190's to set upon the bombers from the other direction. I can't really speak for him, but I got the impression he had a great deal of fondness and high regard for the escort fighters. He told how Me262's attacked his own flight, destroying an adjacent Lanc, before a 262 streaked passed him with 3 Mustangs on his tail. He said the upper gunner was already firing before he realised what was going on, but his own guns jammed. He had to re-cock them by hand, by which time the jet was almost past him, but allowing him a 3 second burst at the enemy. 'His sole contribution to the war effort' as he put it.

 

He was a real gent, from Canada, but I'm told he recently passed away. Big salute Grandguy, it was a genuine pleasure to make your acquaintance Sir.

[Guest British_eh]

I imagine it happened frequently, but the folks who bravely ran away probably told a different story back at base. The lack of radar and interplane communications in WW1 greatly facilitated fudging on your report when you got home. Even if some of the more impetuous guys lived, they probably were in no position to tell what really happened, due to their attention being absorbed by the fight they were in. And of course, it was often the case in real life, and in OFF, that once your scrap is over, you find yourself all alone.

 

So what folks probably said in such situations was, I started in with the others, got cut off by more Huns diving on us, and was thus separated. It was several of them against 1 of me so I ran for it and managed to lose them.

 

Of course, if you made a habit of this, your squaddies will begin to suspect cold feet and might actually notice you sneaking away. So it would probably help to fly low over the trenches on the way back to pick up a few bullet holes to back up your story

 

 

Just reading Richofphen's Circus, and German Air Force 1914 -1918. A few of the "better" leaders, ( not just Aces put in charge), told the Squad if you get separated, get back to base. No heroics. Sensible. Even reading McCuddens story, he would go out himself, but was adamant about turning about if the Squad was not in a good position to win the scrap.

 

Regards,

 

British_eh

[Olham 164]

I have the highest respect for all the Mustang pilots, who escorted the big ones all the way to Berlin.

And after the long way, and probably fierce fighting, they still had to fly all the long way home again.

[shunkan 0]

I have a little real life experience with following a bad idea to its end......its very hard to get away from bad orders or bad leaders. Remember that although it is an officers duty to point out any problems or defficencies in a plan to superiors, he is expected to follow in the end. Poor old pilots, with no comms its a bit hard to convince the lead otherwise. Its screwed up, but most leaders get to their position not by ability, but by their ability to keep emotionally cool while everyone else goes nuts.

 

Some lucky followers get a real warrior like MVR or McCudden who balance the emotion with the ability, too many get leaders blinded by there own sense of greatness.

[Bullethead 12]

I have the highest respect for all the Mustang pilots, who escorted the big ones all the way to Berlin.

And after the long way, and probably fierce fighting, they still had to fly all the long way home again.

 

Escorting B29s over Japan I think was even more tiresome and had rather less chance of a happy ending to a forced landing for the entire extent of the flight there and back.

[Flyby PC 23]

"If the artillery-spotting aircraft is attentive and a surprise is not successful, in most cases he will go into a dive or make turns at the lowest altitude. Then, in most cases, pursuit is not accompanied by success, as I can never hit an opponent who is turning. Also there is no practical value in driving him away; [for] in no more than five minutes he can resume his activity. In this case I consider it better to let him go, fly back to the Front again and repeat the manoeuvre. I have often bagged a British artillery-spotter during the third attack".

 

 

Also -

 

"I place little significant value on the skill of flying itself. I shot down my first 20 [victims] when I still had the greatest difficulties with flying itself. It does not matter whether [or not] one is an aerobatic artist. Furthermore, I prefer the one who can fly only in left-hand turns, but who goes after the enemy, to the diving and turning specialist from [the training centre at] Johannisthal, who attacks too cautiously".

 

(MVR Air Combat Operations Manual. April 1918)

 

Quite thought provoking really, but considering this Manual was intended to be read by young pilots, I wonder whether there was some element of these candid admissions aimed at confidence building for new pilots going into battle.

 

Beyond that, it almost says to me that you should be looking for your exit from contact the moment you lose your tactical advantage. Only press your attack while the odds are firmly in your favour. Once the odds draw even, withdraw, regroup, and start again. All that flies in the face of the prolonged dogfights I typically fly, and makes you wonder how disciplined air combat actually was - in the initial stages at least. What is it they say, 'the best plan never survives first contact with the enemy'? I suspect the first stages of an attack were always planned and well rehearsed 'teamwork' affairs. I think our AI wingmen, friend and foe, are vastly superior to those we meet in any other CFS3 theatre, but they still lack a realistic level of unit cohesion which did exist in reality. That's not a criticism, but evidence of a first class Sim making your mind engage and speculate more fully about what actually happened.

[Duce Lewis 3]

I have the highest respect for all the Mustang pilots, who escorted the big ones all the way to Berlin.

And after the long way, and probably fierce fighting, they still had to fly all the long way home again.

Typically there were several groups of Mustangs assigned to escort the bombers to the target

A 2nd escort package rendevoued with the heavies for the escort home

This freed up the 1st for ground attacks on the homeward trip, Airfields, RR, etc.

 

- in the initial stages at least. What is it they say, 'the best plan never survives first contact with the enemy'?

Yes, but the 1st stages are so important

Whoever starts off with the tactical advantage can put the their opponent on the defensive

I fly average rated squads most often

If we can set-up a well timed bounce, many times we can wipe them out with no losses

Reverse the odds and they're chasing you home

[zoomzoom 2]

"Beyond that, it almost says to me that you should be looking for your exit from contact the moment you lose your tactical advantage."

 

Interesting point FBPC, but I'll take that one step further, I'm looking for my route of escape, (in the old days reffered to 'withdrawal' or retreat) even before I attack. Dicta Boelke rule 7:

 

7.When over the enemy's lines, never forget your own line of retreat.

I'll wager the best of the best always bore this in mind. An amazing sim this is that allows us to take lessons from history, to keep us alive in the virtual.

 

ZZ.