The most challenging mid-war fighter to be successful with - the SPAD VII

[Hasse Wind 46]

This week I've been flying mostly for French S.VII Escadrilles in early to mid 1917, trying to develop my skills with that flying French brick. I like the plane - it's fast, can dive like the wind, and is able to keep going after taking some heavy damage. But as it always happens when I fly the S.VII, I find it extremely hard to shoot down anybody. Using energy tactics, that one Vickers with only 400 rounds feels very inadequate every time I go into battle. It's not very difficult to stay alive in the S.VII - you can fly away from any Alb D.II or D.III (or even D.V) most of time, even though the AI planes have those special speed and durability advantages we don't. But trying to shoot somebody down - now that's challenging. I usually manage to hit my target a few times and then I have to move on if I want to avoid being drawn into a turn fight. It takes many, many passes to shoot anybody down when flying the S.VII - compared to this, the Pfalz D.IIIa is a killer with its two quick firing Spandaus, even though the plane otherwise pretty much sucks as an energy fighter (or any fighter!).

 

Has any OFFer here managed to become an ace with the S.VII?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I dislike the Spad on many fronts I'm afraid.

Visability is poor, and like you say HW...one gun with 400 rounds is no good to anyone in a major furball.

 

I know there are some fans of it, just sadly I'm not one of them

[+Paarma 0]

well im not big fan of spads especially becourse visibility. But its quite beautiful plane and was fun to make skins for it. Lots of parts in cowling, very challengin for skinning.

 

 

 

 

[Olham 164]

I have only flown two campaigns in the SPAD XIII, and that is a great powerful craft to fly.

When the VII is similarly powerful (in it's time), I understand that you like it.

For the shooting with one gun and limited ammo, I can only compare with flying the Tripe:

you must get REAL close, before shooting - all rounds should hit. Then you will have success.

But there is always the danger of collision.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I have only flown two campaigns in the SPAD XIII, and that is a great powerful craft to fly.

When the VII is similarly powerful (in it's time), I understand that you like it.

For the shooting with one gun and limited ammo, I can only compare with flying the Tripe:

you must get REAL close, before shooting - all rounds should hit. Then you will have success.

But there is always the danger of collision.

 

It's not even the gun that bothers me...it's the awful FOV..the forward view is so restricted!...compared to the German Types which had twice the firepower and much better visability.

 

I would have had very serious reservations about taking it up in combat in RL

[Hasse Wind 46]

I would have had very serious reservations about taking it up in combat in RL

 

I wonder how far from the real thing our SPAD VII in OFF is. René Fonck, who shot down a huge number of planes flying SPADs, said the SPAD was a revolutionary fighter (or something like that) when it came into service. Fonck excelled at getting kills at point-blank range, and I guess that's how it should be done with the S.VII in OFF. But the AI pilots are probably better at making evasive actions than the average German Albatros jockeys were during the war, so that probably explains some of the great difficulty of shooting down anything with the S.VII's single Vickers.

 

I find it's very easy to get kills with any Entente turn fighter with one MG, because you can safely go chasing after the enemy, quite unlike when flying the SPAD.

 

Those Focke-Wulfs with their multiple MK's have it so easy in WW2!

[Olham 164]

Don't know, how many variants of AI we have here. Aces seem to be better than average pilots,

but it would be nice to have some unexperienced ones too, to shoot down.

But Fonck certainly was a rare genius in air combats - the majority of SPAD VII pilots would have

rather suffered your experiences, too, IMHO.

You would get better, if you flew the SPAD for some time. I can now even take on Camel aces in

an Albatros D V - not the craft to start with really.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I wonder how far from the real thing our SPAD VII in OFF is. René Fonck, who shot down a huge number of planes flying SPADs, said the SPAD was a revolutionary fighter (or something like that) when it came into service. Fonck excelled at getting kills at point-blank range, and I guess that's how it should be done with the S.VII in OFF. But the AI pilots are probably better at making evasive actions than the average German Albatros jockeys were during the war, so that probably explains some of the great difficulty of shooting down anything with the S.VII's single Vickers.

 

I find it's very easy to get kills with any Entente turn fighter with one MG, because you can safely go chasing after the enemy, quite unlike when flying the SPAD.

 

Those Focke-Wulfs with their multiple MK's have it so easy in WW2!

 

Same could be said of the Pfaltz!...A pig of an aircraft in OFF...but I can find little to support the accuracy or not of the real aircraft.

I know it's performance seems to have changed for the worse since P3

[Bullethead 12]

Has any OFFer here managed to become an ace with the S.VII?

 

The most-challenging mid-war fighter to be successeful in is the DH2 in those squadrons that were stuck with it into June 1917. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts . Next to that, it's the FE2, but if you can hang with it, you get the Brisfit in the autumn of 1917 .

 

The SPAD VII is actually easer to be successful in than the Pup, because the SPAD can just leave the fight if it wants to, but the Pup can't.

 

As to the difficulty of shooting anybody down, welcome to the world of 1-gun Entente fighters in 1917. It's about time you habitual Huns took up that challenge . The synchronized Vickers shoots noticeably slower than the Spandau; bursts of 1 second typically only fire 6 rounds. Trust me, you will NEVER run out of ammo, no matter how many fights you have, because the gun doesn't shoot fast enough. You can get 2-3 kills every sortie and still come home with 75% of your ammo. I usually only take about 75% ammo to save some weight.

 

To be successful in a 1-gun Entente 1917 fighter, you have to become a very good shot. ONLY aim for the cockpit because you don't fire enough bullets to hurt anything else. I'd say 80% of my kills with such planes have been pilot hits and the rest have been force-landings due to lamed engines. I only get a flamer once in a blue moon and NEVER shoot off large pieces.

 

You have to adjust your tactics to get a lot of cockpit shots. Eschew getting on the enemy's tail in favor of high-deflection snapshots. The closer to 90^ deflection, the more of the cockpit is exposed. Best of all is a shot into the top view of an Albatros, where anything between the prop and the headrest either kills or maims. You have to do this because you don't put out enough lead to do real damage otherwise.

[Olham 164]

BH: It's about time you habitual Huns took up that challenge

 

Why should I? I LOVE to see big pieces coming off! With the rate of fire of a Spandau,

I can literally saw the wings off my opponent's craft. And flying with 1.000 rounds,

I rarely ever use it all up, and can shoot down 4 - 5 craft.

So - why should I change a winning team?

 

Nah, okay, the SPAD VII was always on my list - haven't tried her yet, but will

(OFF can really give you the feeling, there's still SO MUCH to do).

[Bullethead 12]

So - why should I change a winning team?

 

Remember the opening scene of Dirty Harry, where he's got the robber cornered but admits to forgetting whether he's fired 5 or 6 times, and asks, "Do you feel lucky, punk?" The robber said, "I gots to know" and Clint's hammer falls on a spent cartridge. THAT'S why. Remember, the side with the twin Spandaus lost .

 

So if you feel like your ACM and marksmanship skills need a crutch, by all means fly for the Kaiser in 1917, or join one of the 1st Camel, SE5, or Brisfit squadrons. If you just want to put a toe in at the mid-deep are, try a SPAD VII or Pup. But if you're a real man, you'd fly the Fee or even the DH2 .

[Olham 164]

The side with the fast twin Spandaus held the whole of the high tech world

at bay, for no less than 4 years. When you find the time, you may copy the

outlines of Germany with a pencil on a piece of tracing paper. And then hold

it over a map of America, a map of Canada, a map of Australia -

you get the idea? Do you think, they built those fighters with only one slow

firing gun to show, how manly and heroic they where - or could it be, that

they couldn't do it any better?

 

I must see the "Dirty Harry" films again - it's so long ago. My dad loved them.

 

And about the Fee - you NEVER give it up to get me into one of those crates,

do you? You must have missed it. Before I had to reset CFS3 (and thereby lost

all my promising pilots, OBD!!!), I had one flying the FEE. He made three sorties

in her; but no kills.

And yes, you have to be the whole man to dare to fly over the lines in that crate!

[Baldric 42]

I'll have to give the SPAD VII a go. There truly are so many possibilities in this sim, aeroplane-wise. I'm probably one of the few who admires the Spad incarnations- probably because it was one of my first model kits I ever built well (that and a FokDVII) waaaay back in the early '70's *cough* The number of guns doesn't excite me much, just whether or not the machine is a viable weapon platform, as I've never been a 'sprayer' just controlled bursts. Perhaps I'll fly a French DiD pilot starting with Nieuports and flow into Spad VIIs. I need another pilot anyway, as Reiner has nudged into the 19 hour range and I'm getting nervous lol.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

the in cockpit visibility is astonishingly bad. with that top wing set so low, you have to "stand up" in the cockpit and move your position up vertically over the top wing to see much of anything. you've got a decent view then. of course, you can't really look for enemy machines in this way and shoot at your intended target.

 

it's not really a dogfight plane for me-- not with the upper wing making it so hard to see. but it's worth remembering that the most successful French SPAD pilots were stalkers OR they worked in large formations of 60 aircraft or so. long before the Jagdgeschwader existed the French were employing the exact same concept of massed fighters to sweep the sky of enemy machines--but they don't get much credit or respect for it.

 

on the bright side the airplane is pretty fast and solid. and, compared to the Nieuport 11's paltry ammunition load the SPAD VII is a veritable killing machine!

[Bullethead 12]

the in cockpit visibility is astonishingly bad. with that top wing set so low, you have to "stand up" in the cockpit and move your position up vertically over the top wing to see much of anything. you've got a decent view then. of course, you can't really look for enemy machines in this way and shoot at your intended target.

 

You don't have to stand up, just sit up straight .

 

Since the Superpatch, both SPADs turn very well. Don't be afraid to use that, especially because it compensates for their rather lackluster roll rate. Fighting in the vertical requires a good roll rate or a good turn rate at high speed. The SPADs have the latter instead of the former, so fly accordingly.

 

The 2 SPAD models need to exploit this turn rate in different ways. With the VII, you need to use it to set up good, short-range snapshots for your single gun into the enemy cockpit. In the XIII with 2 guns, you can saw wings off so can settle for the more traditional stern position.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Bullethead, I consider the DH2 and Fee to be more like early war planes, which were kept in service for far longer than was wise in any sense of the word - okay, the Fee was very successful in her role, but using the DH2 in mid 1917 was pure madness. And it's replacement, the DH5, wasn't a huge success either.

 

Getting kills in any typical Entente mid-war turn fighter is really easy compared to trying to shoot anybody down with the S.VII's single gun. I had a Pup pilot with almost 20 claims and about 10 confirmed kills, most of them Alb D.II's. Then the bloody Archie blew his Pup to smithereens.

 

I've noticed everything is a lot easier with the S.XIII - that one extra gun can make a huge difference! But I like challenges, and becoming a succesful ace with the S.VII is an enjoyable challenge. And I promise to give the Fee fighters a try some day... So much to try, so little time.

[Olham 164]

Baldric: Perhaps I'll fly a French DiD pilot starting with Nieuports and flowinto Spad VIIs.

I need another pilot anyway, as Reiner has nudged intothe 19 hour range and I'm getting nervous lol.

 

Why not start right with the SPAD VII? Pilots entered war at various times, and if you fly the Nupe

before, you may find it harder to completely change your flying to an energy fighter?

About Reiner: I understand that nervousness too well - 19 hours - wow!

 

Hasse Wind: I like challenges, and becoming a succesful ace with the S.VII is anenjoyable challenge.

And I promise to give the Fee fighters a try someday... So much to try, so little time.

 

Indeed, Hasse Wind, indeed! The Fee is okay to fly, if you can live with the fact, that the gunner,

when he is firing rearwards, will block your forward view - which may cause some unexpected

evasive moves (Lol!). And for the SPAD: same for me; must try! Yes, so much to try...

Guynemer did part of his kills in that craft.

 

Edited September 27, 2009 by Olham

[Mr. Lucky 0]

I tried the S VII in 1918 in an American squadron just to start from the beginning. Fighting Alb DV's, DVII;s and DR1's I got my butt handed to me. The DR1's even sticking to my tail when I tried to dive away as the Spad was noted for. I think that was before the super patch though. I always like the DH2 for unsurpassed visibility and clean up in 1916. Those hour long flights to the front get daunting though. Part of the challenge of WWI and OFF is sticking with an obsolete aircraft and changing your stance from offensive to survival until your turn at technical advantage. I'm flying a campaign in an EIII in late 1916 trying to survive until I get the next new plane. I had to adjust my thinking accordingly.

 

I might retry the Spad if it's better with the super patch.

[Hellshade 110]

I can't fly early SPADs at all. I'm a turn fighter and I just can't master the energy attacks strategy, especially when more often than not the enemy starts above me. The field of view is, I'm pretty sure, the worst of all the aircraft available, so I can't see to shoot even if they are right in front of me. And with only 400 rounds to burn through guessing where the huns are at, I end up being just another flying target for the kaisers boys in no time at all. At least they fixed the stall speed, but even if the plane could turn well and had two guns, the incredibly poor FOV just ruins the experience for me.

 

Sopwith triplanes are the best all around fighters for my style. Great FOV, excellent turning prowess, relatively stable firing platform, decent climb and dive abilities and, because of all of that, one gun is enough to make my shots count. The twin gun version (of which I am told only 6 were built) feel like the most powerful thing in the sky. When I use it in QC, I am a one man air force against the kaisers best. The Fokker Dr1 is a beautiful plane too, but it's a bit too twitchy for my tastes, making it hard to shoot accurately when you need to make small firing solution corrections. In the right hands though, I am quite sure she is a beast.

 

Hellshade

 

 

 

[Bullethead 12]

Bullethead, I consider the DH2 and Fee to be more like early war planes, which were kept in service for far longer than was wise in any sense of the word - okay, the Fee was very successful in her role, but using the DH2 in mid 1917 was pure madness. And it's replacement, the DH5, wasn't a huge success either.

 

Getting kills in any typical Entente mid-war turn fighter is really easy compared to trying to shoot anybody down with the S.VII's single gun. I had a Pup pilot with almost 20 claims and about 10 confirmed kills, most of them Alb D.II's. Then the bloody Archie blew his Pup to smithereens.

 

I've noticed everything is a lot easier with the S.XIII - that one extra gun can make a huge difference! But I like challenges, and becoming a succesful ace with the S.VII is an enjoyable challenge. And I promise to give the Fee fighters a try some day... So much to try, so little time.

[Bullethead 12]

ARRGGGHHH!!!!!! My connection burped when I was posting my last so all I ended up was a total quote, which I was unable to edit. So, here's what I meant to say.

 

I find the S.VII to be more of a turnfighter than an E-fighter. It's just different in that it has to do most of its turning in the vertical. I say this because I find the S.VII to lack the macho to do the true E-fighter moves that rely on gaining substantial separation between passes. Thus, it has to stay pretty close to the enemy all the time, like a turnfighter.

 

I have my best success with the S.VII by flying back and forth along the diameter of the enemy's circle, doing vertical reversals at each end. I do this because I'm trying for 90^, short-range deflection shots into his top view. What I try to do is roll out at the top to get the enemy visible between my wings and off to the side about in line with front outer strut. As I approach him, I wiggle the controls to make him slide inwards just below the upper wing's leading edge. Then I open fire when he's between my cabane struts (hopefully into his top view at short range now). I only fire like 1 second, then pull and over to meet him again on the opposite side of the circle. Keep doing this until you either nail the pilot or so lame his motor than it's just mopping up afterwards.

 

It's important not to overshoot outside the enemy's circle. If you stay inside his circle, he'll keep circling because he wants to turn into you. If you overshoot, however, he'll reverse his turn and you have to start over.

[Hasse Wind 46]

The more I fly the SPAD VII, the more I begin to understand how it really is a hunter's scout. Today I managed to shoot down one Albatros D.II near Verdun (I'm flying there in the spring of 1917) by calmly observing a furball below me and then picking one unlucky Albatros as my potential victim. I dived down, shot a few bursts into him and then followed him in a turn taking advantage of the considerable energy I had gathered during the dive. I got a few lucky shots into the Alb's engine and saw how it started to belch black smoke, and soon it burst into flames. But usually this tactic ends with me getting some hits on the enemy plane and then having to break off, because I don't want to go completely wasting my energy at such a low altitude.

 

At this rate, it's going to take some time before I become an ace, IF my pilot stays alive. I'm very tempted to go back to der Kaiser's side and start blasting the skies clear of weak Entente scouts with my two quick-firing Spandaus!

[Baldric 42]

Olham- you are most correct of course- I was thinking with my heart not brain- that transit from a turn-fighter to a pure E-fighter might (most likely actually) cause a quick re-roll of a dead DiD pilot .

 

I have no idea how the real pilots managed to transit like that- were they given hours in the air/'inservices' to acclimatize to a new machine, or did it just arrive one fine day and they were told "There ya go, have at it, figure it out for yourselves..." ? I had picked Nov. 1916, Esc No.3, since Guynemer's pilots made the switch from N17's to SPAD VII's around mid-November 1916- so after months of flying a turn fighter suddenly they were equipped with an E-fighter. Can someone enlighten me as to how the transition was made during the Great War (these days everyone involved goes on course, or at least thats the way it was when I was 'in')