Odds stacked in favour of germany?

[Stiffy 1]

Just something I've noticed while trying to play 1916 campaign in DH2s...

 

In a fair fight of 3 Fokker EIIs vs 3 DH2s the fokkers always win, and I mean in seconds. This isnt right... DH2 was a superior aircraft so why the imbalance? Germany should have strong numbers but poorer aircraft at this time... until the Albatross appears of course.

 

Note I'm not reffering to my skill, talking AI vs AI.

 

DH2 took a major role ending the fokker scourge and stayed in service for a very long time due to it's merits... is it just pure chance that this keeps happening or are the flight models way out in comparison?

 

Would be interested to hear if people playing EIIIs are finding DH2s too easy to kill...

 

 

 

Heres a nice quote from the time! :)

 

"... the de Havilland machine has unquestionably proved itself superior to the Fokker in speed, manoeuverability, climbing and general fighting efficiency." Sir Henry Rawlinson, 23 May 1916

Edited October 7, 2009 by Stiffy

[Bullethead 12]

Note I'm not reffering to my skill, talking AI vs AI.

 

I dunno, I've found that AI planes tend to go according to their skill level, not their airplanes. Good AI pilots in crap planes will usually beat mediocre AI pilots in good planes. But this is how it should be, IMHO. It's the pilot that matters, not the plane, at least up to a point.

 

And FWIW and just MHO, but the DH2 wasn't THAT much better than the Eindecker. In the game, I'd rather fly the Eindecker. Both will kill you very easily if you try to fly them too aggressively, but the Eindecker has much clearer limits which are easier to avoid, and if you do get in trouble, you CAN recover unless you're very low. So just be careful and you won't kill yourself. With the DH2 OTOH, you THINK you can do more with it than the Eindecker, but if you try you'll often find yourself in the "DH2 Cuisinart", an unrecoverable spin that's so fast you can't tell which way you're going, and which occurs with practically no warning in the middle of what a moment ago you thought was a perfectly safe maneuver.

 

DH2 took a major role ending the fokker scourge and stayed in service for a very long time due to it's merits... is it just pure chance that this keeps happening or are the flight models way out in comparison?

 

The DH2 stayed in service so long not because they were good, but because the RFC had nothing better. It was the same story as with the Quirk and Fee. In fact, the RFC was lucky to have DH2s at all when it did. They had their moment, but once things like Halberstadts and Albatri came out, they were dogmeat.

 

At that time, the RFC was pretty much joined at the hip to the Royal Aircraft Factory. That establishment wasn't into making fighters until mid-1917 and then only under duress. Thus, the RFC had to scrounge fighters from other sources against great official opposition. The new De Haviland company with a few "Spinning Incinerators", whatever Pups Sopwith could spare from its RNAS commitments, and the few Nupes and SPADs begged from the French. Eventually the RAF made the SE5, Sopwith expanded to make lots of Camels, and Bristol made the Brisfit, but none of these became common until late 1917.

 

BTW, the "Fokker Scourge" was mostly ended by Fees, not DH2s. But because the Fee had 2 guys in it, most folks don't consider it a fighter. But it was in its day, and can still give a very good account of itself into 1917, if properly flown.

[Baldric 42]

If I may, I'd like to indicate a differing story--- it's 'Bloody April', 1917, down the lines towards Verdun and south. My main DiD (Dead is Dead) pilot is flying Albatross DII's for Jasta 1. Currently the date is 8 April, and his Jasta is down to three functional pilots- one flight. The French Escadrilles Du Chasse are eating up my pilots wingmen, and other squadron pilots, almost as fast as replacements can be added. The French are flying Strutters, N17's and SPAD VII's in an AI gankfest. I'm not thinking the sim is pro-German as my DiD counterpart limps home, sputtering, jammed guns, or shot to pieces landing as safely as he can behind our lines, fight after fight. I've been in some of the most viscious dogfights I've ever experienced in a sim at this point in the campaign. Gawd, I really enjoy this sim!

[Bullethead 12]

If I may, I'd like to indicate a differing story--- it's 'Bloody April', 1917, down the lines towards Verdun and south. My main DiD (Dead is Dead) pilot is flying Albatross DII's for Jasta 1. Currently the date is 8 April, and his Jasta is down to three functional pilots- one flight.

 

Yup, Bloody April was a localized event, over the Arras offensive. At other places at the same time, things were quite different.

 

And try flying for the Kaiser in the 2nd half of 1918. In most places, the Entente is on the offensive and has overwhelming numbers. Even if you're flying a D.VII, you feel desperate and hunted because you can't outrun the most common enemies (SPADs and SE5s) and you're way out-numbered. Things only get worse if you're flying an Albatros or Pfalz, unless you're way off by the Swiss border or something where there aren't so many enemies.

[Hasse Wind 46]

The DH2 sucks. Avoid it like the plague. It was criminal incompetence on the part of British officials that they couldn't replace that abomination in all squadrons with something better until mid 1917. Imagine having to fight against Alb D.III's in the DH2...

 

Edit: I can confirm what's been said about Germany and 1918 campaigns. It's pure madness trying to stay alive against hordes of Entente fighters, even if you do have the great Fokker D.VII.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Hasse Wind

[Stiffy 1]

Oh I'm not saying the DH2 is great when compared to what replaced it! Couldnt touch a sopwith pup and certainly no match for an Albatross.

 

I'm just stating a well established fact that it was a better plane than an EIII. Faster, more manouverable, should easily out turn an EIII (doesnt in this game) these arent my opinions just based on cold hard statistical fact.... I think people may be letting their love for german aircraft cloud thier judgement a bit?

 

DH2 also famous for having excellent climb rate... seems to strugle in OFF.

 

If people would like some evidence I'm happy to post many, many links.... cant find any to suggest EIII was better though...

[Stiffy 1]

Going back to the Fokker Scourge.. In those days, the Fokker was such an overpowering weapon

 

 

Sorry... but I dont really agree, history shows it wasnt overpowering at all and was shot down in large numbers... It WAS overpowering during the fokker scourge... but not when the DH2, FE2 turned up.

 

By the battle of the Somme the allies had regained air superioirity... because they shot down a lot more planes than Germany did.... I must say i'm really surprised people dont know about the history of the Fokker scourge, stop playing late war, 1916 is facinating!

[Stiffy 1]

Sorry to be picky lol but I have found one of the problems... you have completely the wrong rate of climb in your flight models!

 

You have DH2 set at 320 feet per minute!!!! It had a climb rate of 545 feet per minute! no wonder it seems sluggish climbing in OFF.

 

And you have EIII at 400 when it was only 328!... youve actually made the fokker a better climber lol

 

LOL busted, I knew you guys had stacked in favour of the Fokker :)

 

Sorry for being so annoying lol

[Hellshade 110]

Just something I've noticed while trying to play 1916 campaign in DH2s...

 

In a fair fight of 3 Fokker EIIs vs 3 DH2s the fokkers always win, and I mean in seconds. This isnt right... DH2 was a superior aircraft so why the imbalance? Germany should have strong numbers but poorer aircraft at this time... until the Albatross appears of course.

 

Note I'm not reffering to my skill, talking AI vs AI.

 

DH2 took a major role ending the fokker scourge and stayed in service for a very long time due to it's merits... is it just pure chance that this keeps happening or are the flight models way out in comparison?

 

Would be interested to hear if people playing EIIIs are finding DH2s too easy to kill...

 

Heres a nice quote from the time! :)

 

"... the de Havilland machine has unquestionably proved itself superior to the Fokker in speed, manoeuverability, climbing and general fighting efficiency." Sir Henry Rawlinson, 23 May 1916

 

 

My guess would be for you to check your squadrons morale status and see if you can find out what the hun squadrons morale is too. If your squadron is poor and they are average or elite, you're probably going to be toasted.

 

Hellshade

[OvS 8]

Sorry to be picky lol but I have found one of the problems... you have completely the wrong rate of climb in your flight models!

 

You have DH2 set at 320 feet per minute!!!! It had a climb rate of 545 feet per minute! no wonder it seems sluggish climbing in OFF.

 

And you have EIII at 400 when it was only 328!... youve actually made the fokker a better climber lol

 

LOL busted, I knew you guys had stacked in favour of the Fokker :)

 

Sorry for being so annoying lol

 

 

It would suit your cause far better to send information like this to the OFF Dev Team, rather than make a generalizing statement that 'you've actually made... ' etc.. to a group of Community members that had no play in the development of the Flight Parameters.

 

They might be that way beacuse the AI was having troubles flying the respective planes, and we needed to find a balance... they might be that way as an over-sight... I don't know. Polovski, Winder and Rex worked their tails off to get the AI to fly WWI data from flying WWII FM's. It took months to perfect. So there could be room for impovement if there was a mistake...

 

Either way, if you found something wrong, kindly pass the info over to the OBD Dev Team by email and I am sure we'll be happy to look into it.

 

All the best,

 

OvS

[Olham 164]

Stiffy, remember, climb rates are often given for differing altitudes.

It must be difficult, to find out the right rates of climb for all altitudes.

Also, if the Fokker pilots you described, might have been aces or veterans, against DH-2 rookies?

Don't know.

But if the DH-2 AI does generally loose against the E III, or if you did really find wrongly balanced

climb rates, you should follow OvS' advice and report that to:

support@overflandersfields.com

[itifonhom 6]

Well, I got no idea about FMs and climb rates but I don't think air war has anything to do with who's flying the best aircraft. If it was like this, nobody would bother dogfighting anyway, they would just drew the results on the map! But history teaches us that this is not the case, never was and will never be.

 

So when I'm up there and see Nieups dive like Stukas, I just follow. That's dogfighting!

 

 

itifonhom

[Stiffy 1]

Firstly I'd like to apologise if anyone has misread my comments as intending to be anything other than the friendly feedback they were intended to be. As I am new I have no idea what your procedure for bug reporting is.

 

I merely wanted to point out the actually real history (that really happened) the DH2 was a far better machine... for what ever reason this has not been acurately represented in OFF.

 

Nerfing it also seems a little disrespectful to the brave men of the RFC who flew these craft well against the fokker... yes I know the FE was more effective but the DH2 was still better, faster and more maneuverable than an obsolete wing warper from 1915! This is not conjecture lol this is solid 100% fact.

 

Again absolutely no offence is meant to any developers a minor point compared to the amazing job you have done creating this sim. You have given me the opportunity to play the best sim I have ever seen!

 

On the whole EIII vs DH2 matter... I would love to see any genuine evidence to support the notion of the Fokker being better... so far I can only find evidence to the contrary. Also dont forget that the EIII was designed to be an unarmed observation scout and was adapted to fighting wheras the DH2 was specifically designed for shooting down enemy aircraft.

 

 

[Stiffy 1]

Found this one quite interesting as it mentions the DH2 being more maneuverable than an albatross d2 although it suffered from being slower.

 

" if asked "what was the first fighter?" would likely answer, "The Fokker Eindekker." They would be wrong. Some of the more knowledgeable might suggest the Morane-Saulnier, the first airplane to carry a machine gun aimed by aiming the airplane at the target. They would also be wrong. Both of these aircraft began their lives as single-seat unarmed monoplane scouts. That they later carried weapons and engaged in air combat was merely fortuitous.

 

The first designed-for-the-purpose fighter airplane was Geoffrey deHavilland's D.H.2, design of which first began in March, 1915 - well before any Fokker Eindekker flew anywhere with a machinegun mounted on it. The prototype first flew at Hendon aerodrome June 1, 1915. This airplane was designed to carry a .303 Lewis gun mounted in its nose; at first - since no one knew how air combat would happen - it was a flexible mount, and remained so officially during the aircraft's period of service. Service pilots, however, quickly discovered that the secret was to aim the airplane, not the gun, and most D.H.2s flew with their weapon in a fixed position, albeit a "temporary fitting" should some hidebound air staff officer appear at the aerodrome.

 

In an action that demonstrates how litle real thought was being given to the air war, the sole prototype was sent to France a month later, on July 6, 1915, to be used by 5 Squadron, RFC, based at the time at St. Omer. By the middle of the month, the airplane had been lost when Captain Robert Maxwell-Pike, OC 5 Squadron, was on a mission in the vicinity of Ypres, Belgium. In a fight with an Albatros 2-searter, he took a mortal wound to the head, but was able to land just east of Ypres, though the airplane somersaulted in the rough . Fortunately, the Germans - though they repaired the airplane - made no attempt at a detailed examination and thereby left it to their flyers over the next year to discover for themselves what the D.H.2 was capable of.

 

As development continued, it was discovered that the Gnome Monosoupape rotary would shed its cylinders in flight, which led to the danger of thrown cylinders and engine parts severing the tail booms - a fatal event. The reputation for unrelaibility of the early engines was unmerited, since many had been re-bored in an effort to increase their power, thereby weakening the structure at a crucial point - the joining of cylinder to crankcase. New-build engines were installed in all the D.H.2s flown to France by 24 Squadron R.F.C. - the world-s first fighter squadron - in late 1915.

 

Once in France, the D.H.2 was unpopular due to their limited speed range and their tendency to spin under the influence of the rotary engine once turned off. Since pilots still did not know the proper procedure for getting out of a spin - pushing the nose down was entirely counterintuitive - this led to numerous losses until that information became common in the summer of 1916.

 

During the fighting over the Somme battlefield in the summer and early fall of 1916, the D.H.2 played a crucial role in ending the "Fokker scourge." The German fighter was not yet present in organized fighter squadrons, with 3-4 being distributed to each squadron operating two-seat observation aircraft, for the purpose of providing escort to the other airplanes in the unit. The German pilots found themselves outnumbered and outmaneuvered by the "massed" fighter formations (6-8 aircraft) from 24 Squadron and its later stablemate, 32 Squadron. Oswald Boelcke may have "written the book" about fighter tactics, but he learned them watching the operations of the D.H.2 squadrons, and it was the knowledge the British were operating them as squadrons that gave Boelcke the argument he needed to get the German command to authorize the formation of JagdStaffeln.

 

Captain, later Major Lanoe Hawker, the popular commander of 24 Squadron, became the first British ace during the fighting over the Somme. He had won the DSC for an attack on a German Zeppelin shed earlier in 1915, and was awarded the V.C. that September for his actions in a Bristol Scout prior to joining 24 Squadron, in which he shot down several German aircraft that had attacked him while flying alone. His standing orders to his pilots were "attack everything." By November, 1916, his score stood at 7. Unfortunately, 24 Squadron was now opposed by a far better fighter, the Albatros D.II, flown by Boelcke's Jasta 2.

 

The D.H.2 had a top speed of around 93 mph, and a single .303 Lewis gun, with five 47-round drums of ammunition. The Albatros had a top speed of 106 mph, and carried two Spandau machine guns with 200 rounds each. No matter that the D.H.2 was the more maneuverable, the Albatros pilot could enter or break off combat at will due to superior performance.

 

On November 23, 1916, Hawker and his wingman engaged a flight of Albatros D.IIs. Hawker engaged one unsuccessfully, then was attacked in turn by an obscure member of Jasta 2, a former Uhlan named Manfred von Richtofen. Had the mounts of each pilot been reversed, there is no doubt of the outcome, as Hawker was by far the more experienced pilot, though von Richtofen had 10 kills to his credit at the time; this fight is a demonstration of the effect of superior technology. The battle eventually wound down to tree-top height as Hawker traded altitude for airspeed, trying desperately to regain his lines. Richtofen later said that of all the fights he entered, the battle with Hawker was the most difficult. The aircraft went round and round, with Hawker pulling tight enough onto von Richtofen's tail to pepper his Albatros several times. Finally, Hawker ran out of ammunition and had to run for it. This gave von Richtofen the opening he needed, and the speedy Albatros quickly caught up with the slower D.H.2. With the last of his ammunition, von Richtofen fired a burst that hit Hawker in the head, killing him outright He was von Richtofen's 11th victory, and marked the beginning of the Baron being considered a leading pilot by his comrades. Von Richtofen paid Hawker the ultimate compliment of making his Lewis gun the centerpiece of his collection of "memorabilia" from his victims, displaying the weapon over the door of his bedroom at home"

 

 

 

also note that it only flat spins when the engine is off

[Stiffy 1]

And of course this one from ww1 online... note - inferior to morrane saulnier! Please note I'm smiling while writing this! often the lack of expression and tone of voice can make a post seem confrontational when in fact its only meant as friendly banter... I meerly enjoy a good debate on crates!

 

"In spite of its innovative use of deflector gear the German Eindecker was in many ways an unexceptional aircraft.In April of 1916 a captured Eindecker was tested by the Allies, and found to be inferior in performance to its Morane-Saulnier opposite number. The interrupter gear was also far from perfect - both Boelcke and Immelmann survived shooting off their own propeller.

 

The impact of the interrupter-gear Eindecker, however, was enormous. The heretofore appreciated stability of the Allied aircraft became a liability as they could not escape the more manoeuvrable Eindecker. The French were forced to curtail their successful day bombing operations and turn to night bombing. The RFC began to suffer losses approaching two a day.

 

The great German offensive against Verdun began in early 1916. In accordance with the German plan to bleed the French army dry, Falkenhayn determined to use their control of the air to do the same thing to the Armee de l'Air, and to blind the French artillery by shooting their observer aircraft out of the skies.

 

Boelcke, who had done much to develop the tactics of aerial warfare, was moved to Rethel, nearer to Verdun, to command a new Kampfeinsitzerkommando - a single seater detachment. Immelmann remained in command at Douia.

 

For the opening six months of 1916 the Germans maintained control of the air. It was wrested from their grasp, but slowly. By the opening of the Battle of the Somme in July, the Eindecker was obsolete. Boelcke was to refer to July and August of 1916 as "the blackest days in the history of German military aviation."

 

The Eindecker, ironically, was unseated by aircraft already available before Fokker's invention of the interrupter gear, and none of them ever had interrupter gear installed. It was the combination of four types of aircraft that defeated the Eindecker.

 

Three of them were British, and they were all pusher aircraft - the Gun Bus, the FE2b, and the DH2. The fourth was the altogether far more impressive French Nieuport 11 "Bebe" (Baby). This was a tractor sesquiplane (a biplane, but with the lower wing significantly smaller than the upper wing.)

 

Its armament consisted of a Hotchkiss or Lewis gun mounted on the upper wing, much in the same configuration as that tried out by Louis Strange, but on a sliding mount allowing the pilot to pull the machine gun down towards him. This was intended to allow the pilot to shoot upwards at an angle, in addition to removing the need to stand when reloading or servicing the weapon.

 

The French officially adopted the "ace" system during the battle of Verdun. Many of these pilots were concentrated in a famous squadron, the Cigognes (Storks), and the aces Navarre, Nungesser and Guynemer, all flying Nieuports, became household names.

 

It was not just the aircraft themselves that returned control of the air to the Allies. It was only during 1916 that these aircraft appeared at the front in significant numbers and that they were organized into fighter units.

 

The Allies, with the French taking the lead, learned the value of flying in defensive formations of four to five aircraft, matching the three to four plane offensive patrols of the Germans.

 

If the Fokker Scourge was symbolically opened by Boelcke's first victory, it was symbolically closed when Max Immelmann was killed during a fight with an FE2b on June 18th 1916. Whether he was shot down, as claimed by the Allies, or shot away his own propeller, as claimed by the Germans, is still a matter of debate."

Edited October 8, 2009 by Stiffy

[Olham 164]

Stiffy, I don't think anyone would regard your points as offenses.

But it is definitely not a bug (a word one should use carefully, and really better in a mail to the support),

rather would it be a maybe wrong balance of climb data.

 

You seem to be a real fan of the DH-2, and I must admit these "sand fleas" as I call them, sometimes

cause some good trouble for me. There is a squadron with several aces, and they fly sand coloured craft.

When I meet those guys, they are more than a match even to my Albatros D III - they are all over the place,

and so I had always thought, that craft's FM was perhaps modelled too good.

 

Why not report your climb data and thoughts to the support? If not now, they may still regard them for

Phase 4.

[Bullethead 12]

The main misconception IMHO of the so-called "Fokker Scourge" is that it happened at all. The 2nd misconception is that the DH2 played a big part in "ending" it.

 

The "Fokker Scourge" was NOT an era when Germany achieved air superiority, sweeping the Entente from the sky. As such, it was NOT an era that had to be "ended" by the arrival of better Entente planes. Such images are suited to later years and other wars, but applying these words to the "Fokker Scourge" is applying inappropriate later terms to a very different set of circumstances. Here's what really happened:

 

First off, in 1914-1915, the French pretty much ruled the air. They alone had an independent air force at the start of the war, they had the most planes, and they began arming them with MGs before 1914. Thus had things all their own way. They had bomber formations roaming at will over the nearest parts of Germany and in fact formed dedicated fighter units long before No. 24 RFC.

 

Meanwhile, the Germans had only unarmed A- and B-type machines, which were loosely organized under the army's transport command. Thus, the Germans couldn't fight back and couldn't really organize to deal with the French airial juggernaut.

 

The RFC began pretty much in the same boat as the Germans, with a bunch of unarmed observation planes. They were able to operate, however, because the Germans had nothing to oppose them with. Their encounters were the stuff of dropping bricks and firing pistols at each other. However, the Brits soon began to fly MG-armed pushers like the French had had all along, so that they, too, began driving the Germans from the skies of their sectors. And of course the RNAS was into bombing aggressively just like the French, too.

 

So things stood well into 1915. At this point, however, the Germans reorganized their air force to make it more responsive, concentrated, and aggressive. They also began to introduce the 1st C-type planes, which had a tailgunner, along with a few scattered Eindeckers.

 

Thus, suddenly, Entente planes began to be shot down in air combat, something which had been extremely rare all along before. This came as a shock after so long of having things so easy, and this shock is what led to the coining of the term "Fokker Scourge" by the Brit press--NOT the RFC. This term was used in political debates mostly, and as such was deliberately chose by press and politicians to sound alarming to help carry arguments. Thus, it has ever since given many people the completely the wrong impression of what really happened. The "Fokker Scourge" wasn't a bloody defeat for the Entente, but merely marked the point in time at which the Germans finally started shooting back and thereby achieved a degree of parity in the air.

 

So, what really happened in the "Fokker Scourge" was that German 2-seaters were no longer easy pickings, but could give as good as they got from the contemporary Entente 2-seaters. There were also a few Eindeckers here and there that used different tactics, which forced Entente pilots to develop different tactics and that took a bit of time. They were matched, however, by a growing number of Entente scouts also equipped with various mounts for forward-firing guns.

 

Things were thus more or less balanced in individual fights, but the Entente still had more armed planes so could accomplish more of its missions than the Germans could. As such, the Entente still had overall air superiority, and as time went by developed strategies and tactics to effectively contain the smaller number of Germans. None of the Entente planes (except the Nupes) had performance very superior to those of the Germans, some were arguably worse, and most of them had been in existence, at least in small numbers, since before the Eindecker appeared. But because the Entente had more planes, it was able to smother the Eindecker. And because these old planes could do this, there seemed no reason to make anything more advanced, thus setting the stage for massacres later on when the Germans came out with much better fighters.

 

The important thing to remember here is that the "Fokker Scourge" was an invention of the alarmist British media that was exploited by alarmist politicians. To hear them talk, you'd think that it was the end of the world, but this outcry bore little, if any, relation to what was going on at the front lines. It was rather like today's media and defeatist politicians spinning the major victory by our troops last weekend as a disaster because a mere 8 US soldiers died while killing hundreds of badguys. However, then as now, it's the media's version that becomes public perception. And having created the largely imaginary "Fokker Scourge", the press had to end to it somehow. Thus, the tiny contribution of a small number of equally pathetic DH2s was given undue credit. This was also political, because the DH2 wasn't a product of the government's RAF, which certain members of Parliament and their supporters in the media at that time were ballyhooing.

 

 

[Olham 164]

A very interesting read, and good information on a guy like me, who didn't know about all this really.

Thank you for this article about the "Fokker scourge", Bullethead.

 

And thinking twice, maybe the craft I mentioned furhter up was a DH-4? (I don't know these early craft well).

[Hasse Wind 46]

Excellent post, Bullethead. However, I disagree with one thing:

 

 

First off, in 1914-1915, the French pretty much ruled the air. They alone had an independent air force at the start of the war

 

 

The French air force didn't become an independent component of French military until the 1930's. They were under army jurisdiction during WW1. But if you meant to say they were the first real air force in the world with proper training, units and everything, then I agree completely.

[Bullethead 12]

The French air force didn't become an independent component of French military until the 1930's. They were under army jurisdiction during WW1. But if you meant to say they were the first real air force in the world with proper training, units and everything, then I agree completely.

 

According to FMP's French Aircraft of the First World War...

 

"On 4 April 1914 the Aviation Militaire became a separate department of the Ministry of War; it was now a separate service."

 

Originally, there was also an Aviation Maritime that was part of the navy. I think what happened in the 30s was that these 2 were combined into the Arme'e de l'Air like had already happened to the RFC and RNAS. But the land-based planes were an independent service from before WW1.

[Stiffy 1]

My god yes the First few years of the RFC where a joke! When it was founded in 1912 it had just 11 pilots compared to Frances 263! And by May 1915 the RFC had 166 planes... whereas France had 1,115!

 

I think alot of this was due to the early passion the french had for aviation spurred on by people like Bleriot... somewhere I have some prints of French pre-war air race posters...

 

 

As for the DH2... It is a nice plane but wouldnt say my all time favourite, just the best option for me for 1916 flying ( I like early war stuff!) so keen to make sure it flies right (although i suspect the problem may be the EIII more than the DH2). I also have a soft spot for the Eindekker but know its limits, love the primitive technology of it... wouldnt look out of place in a 1909 air race.

 

I think the real star of the show around this period was the nie16 and after that the 17, fantastic planes! Far more advanced than anything else about.

 

Just a thought... wouldnt it be nice if the earliest Eindekkers in OFF had something to simulate deflector gear instead of interruptor? would be nice to seee the odd blade fly off followed by the craft shaking itself apart! And perhaps the odd bullet firing off to the side?... or into the pilot!

[+Polovski 460]

Firstly, try some other squadrons. Maybe you are meeting elite german squadrons and you are in an average one? This is all modelled in OFF. Change your situation.

 

Secondly go by how it climbs in game not by what it reports in the FM editor.

There's a lot more to this than plugging in numbers in but I always find AI in DH2, wipes my squad in EIIIswith equal AI (say Vet) most often.

[Stiffy 1]

Ok I'll try some others... I have to say that through this thread I am starting to learn just how amazingly impressive the amount of factors effecting AI are! Not just pilot skill but also moral... its sometimes hard to believe that it is CFS3 hidden beneath all this.... why havent microsoft offered you all jobs! perhaps they are embarrased that you can do the job better than they can lol

[Olham 164]

Good question, Stiffy! But they all seem to have good jobs.

Still though, it would have been worth to think about making a package of CFS3 + OFF-BHaH,

distributed and commercialised by Mickeysoft, sharing the winnings. They might have earnt more

even on a 15 % basis.

But the devs seem to be "the last of the Independants", and I feel a deep respect for that.

 

And yes, the AI behaviour is really split into low, mediocre and high morale fighter pilots, and aces.

And so, meeting the same plane doesn't mean the same outcome at all. Better be careful every time.

[Bullethead 12]

...its sometimes hard to believe that it is CFS3 hidden beneath all this....

 

Amen to that.

 

I've flown sims for nearly 30 years now and until OFF, I never had anything but contempt for their AIs. That's why I've flown so much MMOFS, to face competent opponents. But OFFs' AI is the first thing I've seen that's worthy of the "I" part of its name. This thing really knows its ACM. It might not have to deal with all the things a human with full realism has to, but it knows its ACM and even its average pilots can put up a good fight. When you beat them, you know they knew what they were doing and can respect them for trying, even though you knew a few more tricks and had been able to anticipate them. This is a very far cry from the usual offline flightsim. And then there are the top aces, who can do things that are downright immoral without making it look like they're "cheating". And this is all just when you're locked up 1 on 1. Add a few more planes on each side and it really rivals what you find in an MMOFS.