Roland DII and other needed planes for the next add-on

[depalmer 0]

As a new Hat in the ring add-on owner I loved the numbers of new planes for a reasonable price. The Nieuport 24 is one of my favorites. In the next paid add-on I would like to see more holes filled. For example at one point in 1917 the Roland D2 made up 25% of the front-line fighters for Germany. (Winsock file on Roland D2) Another needed hole filler plane is the Pfalz D3 (not the D3a) and the Nieuport N23. Neither the Nieu N23 or Pfalz D3 would take much 3D model work. As for 1918 I would like to see A Pfalz D12 and a Roland DVIb. Lets face it HITR was a Allied aircraft fest with only the Fokker E5 thrown in. No matter what the next paid add-on will be I will part with the money gladly.

Edited December 26, 2009 by depalmer

[OvS 8]

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but the order the aircraft are modelled is a combonation of contribution to the war effort, and availability of facts to go on, let's not forget the desire of the modeler. Both of them.

 

We're sadly lacking 2 seaters, as they played a major roll, at this party.

 

As to the nationality of the birds featured, isn't it strange that most of the birds are allied ?

 

As a 'Hun supporter' on the OBD Dev Team, I supported the choices of crates 100% in HitR. I always lobby Pol and Winder for Hun crates as I'm biased, but when I saw the choices for HitR I knew they were spot on for filling in gaping holes in the campaigns, as well as adding a deeper historical value to the game. We can't add planes based on our opinions, we add them based on historical vaule and sometimes, as in the case of the E.V, for fun. But more important, we fill voids that halt your campaigns, which HitR does very nicely.

 

The Nieuport variants were needed so that the Americans could start on time with the N28's before they were issued the SPAD X.III's, while the French/Brits needed the N24's to complete thier respective timescales as well.

 

While I agree that the Pfalz D.XII would be nice to have, historically it served opposite the much favored Fokker D.VII variants and was not as notable aside from Jasta 5, 23b and a few higher number Bavarian southern units. It's a cool plane, however, was not as popular amoungst pilots.

 

I don't know that the Roland D.II Haifisch were 25% of the GAF when in use, but if you had a choice between an Alb and a Roland, you'd be in the Alb for sure. The Roland was not a very popular scout and were a poor design with terrible visablilty. Rolands are a tough plane to justify a yes or a no. While it would be great to have them in, wouldn't you rather have a Rumpler, or an Alb C.III to deepen the Hun 2-seaters? Maybe someday I'll try to lobby Winder to make the Roland Souts, but I'd rather be skinning his Hun 2-seaters... or better... a Siemens-Schuckert D.III.

 

Other than that, we do try our best to fill the dromes of all sides based on need and time it takes to make the planes. It's something the whole team has a part in when we talk about new planes to add as it's work for all of us. Hopefully, someday, we'll have many of the more notable planes in the skies of OFF, but it will be one at a time, based on priority.

 

All the best, and thanks for posting.

 

OvS

[depalmer 0]

OVS I would love to see a LVG or a Alb C3 in the game but I did not mention two seater types as they require more work to model the rear gunner. I would still like to see a Roland D2. It should not matter if it was not liked as well as the Alb D2 or early D3. It flew in large numbers. (25% of the fighter Aircraft in early 1917 per Windsock.) Being the first add-on was very much a allied focused release, I for one would like to see a German focused add-on in the second one. I recall that the Pfalz D12 did not do too bad in the vote posted last year.

[Hasse Wind 46]

I'd be willing to buy an expansion pack dedicated purely to adding more 2-seaters to the sim. Currently we aren't lacking many important fighters, as HitR filled some gaping holes in the Entente arsenal, but OFF has only a few 2-seaters compared to the huge number of different types there were in service historically. The French for example don't have any of their own 2-seaters included. From a purely historical point of view, 2-seaters should be on top of the list when thinking about what to include in the next expansion pack.

[Hellshade 110]

Well now that the 2 seaters can fight like scouts, more of them would indeed be a blast to see. Even so, I'd still love to have some of the heavy bombers present in the campaign just to flesh out even more the various types of encounters you can have. That said, the devs havn't let me down yet as far as the quality of what they have shipped so I'll happily leave it to their judgement as to what should be next. Besides, I'm kind of torn between if I want them working on another expansion for P3 or the long push for P4.

 

Hellshade

[Olham 164]

depalmer, as a (former) model builder and collector, I would have felt like you:

let's have all the planes that we can see on old photographs - should be nice to have.

 

But flying them is a different thing.

We have the Halberstadt D II, which is one of those early war fighters.

But how many people fly with it more often? I have used it occasionally, but never really

got far with it, and went back to my Albatros.

When a craft is more difficult to handle to gain any success, and also lacks firepower,

it would be nice to HAVE - but would it be nice to USE ?

 

The Roland's forward vision was rather poor. MvR tried it in Adlershof - and stuck to his

Albatros.

 

OvS' Siemens-Schuckert D III is quite another cup of tea. Udet has been flying it, and it

must have been a very agile turn-devil with a good climb. It was used in these Jastas:

 

Jasta 2

Jasta 4

Jasta 12

Jasta 13

Jasta 15

Jasta 19

Jasta 26

Jasta 27

Jasta 36

[OvS 8]

When a craft is more difficult to handle to gain any success, and also lacks firepower,

it would be nice to HAVE - but would it be nice to USE ?

 

You nailed it Olham. This is also another consideration. Why add planes that are only going to frustrate the user and not be used.

 

The E.V is a joy to have in the game, and adds that second level of pleasure to actually see it flying. Other planes will not give you that. The DH5 is another... it's nice to have that one in the game as well. It's a fun plane to fly and adds the 'attack' mission as it was assigned that as specific duty.

 

Maybe the last patch was Allied biased, but for very good reason. There were a lot of good Allied planes missing that needed to be added. All of the more notable German scouts are already in the game. The rest are all 'nice to haves'. The only other German scout that NEEDS to be done is the Pfalz D.XII, but I'd rather wait for it seeing it would be nicer to have more Early War planes, and some 2-seaters.

 

Keep in mind there are only 2 modelers on the team, so what we pick must be worth the time, rather than create a set-back wasting all that time on a non-desirable plane.

 

So Rumpler C.I over Albatros C.III? LVG over AEG? Snipe over Salmson 2A2? Get it? It's a tough call.

 

OvS

[JimAttrill 24]

If we look at planes that might be 'easy' for the Devs to do (we must always remember that what seems easy to us may not in fact be easy to do at all) the Fe2d comes to mind. All it needs is a change to the Fe2B undercarriage and the RR engine with more power. Then I could do some night bombing missions with the squadrons numbered from 100 onwards. Might be a bit boring though with no real night fighters about at that time. Could find an ammo dump and make a big bang

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

I understand that people love scouts more than two-seaters but my big wish for the next add-on would be two-seaters.

 

think about it like this. the newest add-on had the Nieuport 23,24, 28, the Fokker E.V, and the DH5. there's not a SINGLE two-seater in the bunch! and if we don't have two-seaters out there some of the missions aren't going to be very interesting!

 

fixing the BE2 variants seem pretty important-- if not enjoyable! because right now we have a BE12 with the performance of the BE2e standing in for the entirety of the war! it would also be keen if we could get some of the home-defence variants included in the future.

 

but if we're willing to settle for that sort of compromise I would suggest the Voisin. the reason being is that the Farman, while easily more numerous early on, gets dropped altogether in the middle of the war. the Voisin III served from the first months of the war. the Voisin V and VIII soldiered on as low level attack planes and night bombers during 1916-17. by 1918 the noticeably different Voisin X was still serving as a night bomber with as many as 100 in action by the end of the war. since the Voisin and Farman had comparable performance, it makes sense to pick the one that served longer.

 

the Morane Parasol (single-seat and two-seater variants) it even got used by Bavarian squadrons in the form of the Pfalz A.I/E.III.

 

the DH4/9 served with British and American units-- and would be nice to have.

 

the Salmson 2a2 served widely with the French and the United States-- but, conversely, the Breguet XIV was used in even larger numbers by the French, and served with three Belgian and two American squads.

 

if there is a scout included it would be nice to have the Morane Parasol and the Morane Saulnier N and P (aka "Bullet" types)

Edited December 27, 2009 by Waldemar Kurtz

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

If we look at planes that might be 'easy' for the Devs to do (we must always remember that what seems easy to us may not in fact be easy to do at all) the Fe2d comes to mind. All it needs is a change to the Fe2B undercarriage and the RR engine with more power. Then I could do some night bombing missions with the squadrons numbered from 100 onwards. Might be a bit boring though with no real night fighters about at that time. Could find an ammo dump and make a big bang

 

it might not be THAT boring, given that by the end of the war the Germans had developed night-bombing tactics to a degree that Fritz Gerhard Anders, C.O of Jasta 73, scored his last five victories at night. (most of these were Voisin Xs)

 

and if the AI can "see in the dark" it might be more interesting than you'd care for!

[Hasse Wind 46]

 

fixing the BE2 variants seem pretty important-- if not enjoyable! because right now we have a BE12 with the performance of the BE2e standing in for the entirety of the war! it would also be keen if we could get some of the home-defence variants included in the future.

 

 

That's a very good point, Waldemar. I'd also like to see this changed in the future. It should be easier to change the performance of an existing crate than having to build completely new types of aircraft for the sim. (But what do I know!) And we already have variants of Albatros and SE5, so why not the BE.

 

And as for the French, it would be nice to see the Dorand AR series of two-seater recon planes, which were used by quite a few French squadrons in 1917-1918, before the much better Salmsons and Breguets became common. And of course the Salmsons and Breguets are a must in the future, because they were extremely important recon/bomber planes for the Entente, with very large numbers built.

 

The devs sure have their hands full with our wishes for new crates.

[Olham 164]

Waldemar Kurtz: ...the Morane Parasol (single-seat and two-seater variants) it even got used

by Bavarian squadrons in the form of the Pfalz A.I/E.III.

If that's true, that would mean, with making just one model, both sides could have a new plane?

 

Cause I agree with you - the Eindecker would be more fun, if it had less dangerous opponents

early on. To fight a Nieuport Bebe in a wingwarper, is almost suicide - but a Morane Parasol - that

could be done.

[ConradB 0]

The trouble is, that there were so many different types that were used during the war. And many were just stop gap measures until better machines could be developed. Like the Siemens-Schuckert DI DIa and DIb. A complete ripoff of the N-17, but meant to help with the by then obselete monplanes from Fokker and Pfalz. It was powered by a 110hp Siemans-Halske geared rotory where the engine spun in the opposite direction from the prop. By the time they were being built in numbers, the Albatrios fightr was already available, so most of Siemans-Schuckert DI models were sent to the Russian Front.

 

It's just that there were so many different types that were used throughout the war, it will take time to develope them all. Can't happen overnight is all.

[Rickitycrate 10]

This thread is a fun read. It sounds like we are all looking forward to "what's next". That's good. I hope the sales of the HITR add-on were good and the devs. are indeed encouraged to create some more planes for P3.

 

Some kind of work is underway for P4 it seems. Not knowing what engine is being used for P4 I don't know what can be carried over from P3. If it is a new engine I do not know how much of P3 can be carried over, ported, transferred or whatever the technical term is. Does a new engine mean starting from scratch? Or will add-ons for P3 also be a further developement of P4?

 

Team OBD has not done me wrong. I am not privvy to what is going on back at the "office". I find I do not worry, what with the track record of team OBD. I hope they don't mind our fun bit of speculation.

[OvS 8]

It's just that there were so many different types that were used throughout the war, it will take time to develope them all. Can't happen overnight is all.

 

Same point as Olham and just as correct. We could sit here and debate the need for each plane until the sun burns out, but in truth, with only 2 modelers, and limited time, we do what we can do based on need, design complexity and effect to the game. We like to make models that carry as long as possible, especially with the 2-seaters. Hence why the Stutter and the DFW C.V were the primary choices for us. They spanned the most time scale in the game. The DFW being the best of all from early war to late.

 

But hearing all this and your opinions really matter to us, and it all get considered. I'd like to see on the German side the Rumpler and Albatros C.III models. On the French, a Cauldron, Farman, or even the Dorand AR-1. The Brits... tough one... Big Ack and variants of the BE2c and FE2b.

 

All things considered, don't worry... we NEVER rest and the stew is already being prepared for whatever we release next. :)

 

OvS

[Duce Lewis 3]

It's really nice to be able to discuss new options for the sim and being given some consideration

Thanks for chewing the fat with us OVS!

Now that I have mt N.28, I'm quite happy, but here's my wish list for the next 5

IIRC the next add-on is to be 2-seaters so I'll concentrate there

1. Salmson 2

2. Breguet BXIV

3. Albatross CIII

4. Rumpler CI

5. Spwith Snipe - Not a 2 seater but this plane has the fun factor

 

 

[ConradB 0]

Since were talkin' 2 seaters,

 

how about 4 downward firing Spandaus:

 

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/a/1178/59/1/11

 

Or the good ole Aviatik C Series. Very pleasant looking aeroplane series. The "chimney" style exhaust stack.

 

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/o/1123/59/0/4

 

THe LVG is also nice looking,

 

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/o/1326/59/0/2

 

But there are so many to choose from, like the Aviatik would do well for the 1915 - 1916 period, until newer designs replaced it like the Rumpler.

[Olham 164]

Well, just for the fun factor, I would pick the Siemens Schuckert D III for German fighters.

Although not really fast, it had an excellent climb, which made it a good interceptor, and

it would get the pilot out of trouble by climbing away.

The German Wikipedia gives much more information than the English, so I give you that

link here.

 

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens-Schuckert_D.III

 

The French should get the Morane Parasol and the N type.

[+Johan217 5]

Apart from a number of early war types, I think the addition of a French 2-seater (Breguet 14) and medium/heavy bombers (Handley Page O and AEG G IV or Gotha) would fill a gap, even if they are only available as AI aircraft.

[Creaghorn 10]

most important IMO, twoseaters. especially early two seaters for all sides. the primary reason why there was airfight at all. reason why there was airfighting is to prevent reconoissance the other side. they were the primary target.

 

IMO aircraft who are tough to handle and maybe not so popular also belong to the campaign as the more popular ones. if you have a career in a squadron the question was not what somebody wants to fly, but what they got equipped with, and the pilot had to handle with it. if he liked it or not. so tough AC are a hughe part of immersion beeing in a campaign.

[JimAttrill 24]

Here is a story about the Big Ack or A-W F.K.8:

 

Designed by Frederick Koolhoven, the F.K.8 - known as the 'Big Ack' by its crews - equipped Nos 2, 8, I0, 35 and 82 Squadrons on the Western Front in late I9I7.

 

Its I60 hp Beardmore engine gave it a top speed of around 90 mph and it carried an armament of one synchronized Vickers gun, operated by the pilot, and a Lewis gun in the rear cockpit. Although heavy on the controls, especially the ailerons and elevators, it was well built and robust, could absorb a lot of battle damage and was well liked by its crews. Major K. D. P. Murray, No I0 Squadron's commanding officer, said of it:

 

 

 

'The big A-W was slow, but my pilots liked it for the particular job hey had to do, and never regarded themselves as "cold meat". Owing to the nature of their work, they were rarely in a position to attack, but when attacked, as they were frequently enough, they gave a good enough account of themselves.'

 

One of No I0 Squadron's crews who definitely gave a good account of themselves were Captain John Pattern and Lieutenant Leycester, who took off together on a photo-reconnaissance sortie on 29 November I9I7. Pattern himself, shortly before his death (he was then in his nineties), told the story to the author:

 

 

 

‘I was due to go home on leave the following day, and when you had been warned for leave you weren't supposed to fly. But after several days of fog and rain the weather had finally cleared and there were reports of large enemy troop movements south of Passchendaele, so as the Squadron's most experienced pilot I was detailed to go out and get the photographs that were urgently needed. It wasn't that I was a particularly good pilot; it was just that most of the others were dead. On average, a crew doing our sort of job, flying straight and level over the enemy lines, could expect to last three weeks before being shot down. Some of us, myself included, were lucky; I had been shot down only a week before, and had walked out of the wreck with only a few scratches. That was one of the good points about the big A-W: it was so strongly built that crews could often walk away from the most horrendous crashes.'

 

On that November morning, Pattern and Leycester - it was their seventh mission together - took off from Abeele and climbed to 5,000 feet, heading towards Ypres and the front line. Unknown to them, some thirty miles away another pilot was also taking off from an airfield near Lille. He was Lieuten­ant Erwin Boehme, a Staffel commander in the Richthofen Jagdgeschwader.

 

This was a big day in Boehme's life. In a few hours' time he was due to receive Germany's highest award for gallantry - the Ordre Pour le Merite or 'Blue Max' as it was nicknamed - from the hands of the Kaiser himself. The medal was Boehme's reward for shooting down twenty-four British and French aircraft, but to him its significance was much greater. It would help to remove a burden of guilt he had carried for a year now, since October I9I6.

 

Together with his Staffel commander, Oswald Boelcke - the most famous German air ace of that time - he had been involved in a dogfight with some British aircraft. Boehme had made a slight error of judgement. His wingtip had touched Boelcke's and the ace's aircraft had gone down, breaking up as it fell. Boelcke had been killed instantly. Desolate, Boehme had gone to his tent on landing and taken out his revolver, intent on committing suicide, but had been prevented by von Richthofen. Now, in November I9I7, Boehme commanded Boelcke's old unit, Jagdstaffel 2. Boehme headed for the front line, accompanied by five more Albatros Scouts, intent on claiming one more victim before he received his decoration. That victim should have been John Pattern, whose F.K.8 was crossing the front line just north of Westhoek. Pattern takes up the story:

 

'About a quarter of a mile on the enemy side of the lines, I turned south-east and Leycester started to work his cameras. The anti-aircraft fire, which had been intense, had stopped, but I didn't take much notice. I should have known better; it was a sure sign that enemy fighters were in the vicinity. Suddenly, I heard the clatter of Leycester's machine-gun above the roar of the engine. I looked round to see what he was shooting at, and nearly had a heart attack. Slanting down from above, getting nicely into position thirty yards behind my tail, was an Albatros. I immediately heaved the old A-W round in a split-arse turn, tighter I think than I had ever turned before. I felt a flash of panic as I lost sight of the Hun, but Leycester must have been able to see him all right as he kept on firing. My sudden turn had done the trick. The Albatros overshot and suddenly appeared right in front of me. Because of the relative motion of our two aircraft, he seemed to hang motionless, suspended in mid-air. I could see the pilot's face as he looked back at me. I sent a two-second burst of Vickers fire into him. His aircraft seemed to flutter, then slid out of sight below my starboard wing. I was pretty certain that I had hit his petrol tank. Behind me, Leycester was still blazing away. He was using tracer, and it may have been one of his bullets that ignited the petrol pouring from the Hun's ruptured tank. When I caught sight of the Albatros again, it was burning like a torch and side-slipping towards the ground, trailing a streamer of smoke. For an instant I saw the German pilot, looking down over the side of the cockpit. Then the smoke and flames enveloped him. I pushed the A-W's nose down and headed flat out for home, aware that the other Hun scouts were coming down fast after me. They would probably have got me, too, if some friendly fighters had not come along just in time and driven them away. To say that I was relieved would be the understatement of the century. In due course I learned the name of the man I had shot down, but I didn't take much notice at the time. It was not until fifty years later that I came across the full story of Erwin Boehme's career in some book or other. My first reaction was that if I had known who he was at the time he attacked me, I would have shoved the A-W's nose down and landed in the nearest available field. But then, maybe I wouldn't have. Who knows? All I do know is how lucky Leycester and I were, on that day in Flanders.

 

 

 

From “Aces’ Twilight”, Robert Jackson. (Underlining mine)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I am all for additional B/R planes and some early war kites being added to OFF's already impressive line-up. However, I do understand the point made by OvS about the fun factor when it comes to flying them. Johan's idea of including some of the heavy bombers as AI would be excellent just so we could have the opportunity to attack them in the campaigns, rather than only seeing them in the stand-alone missions. Same goes for the Zeppelin. But I am very content with the sim as it stands right now and I know the devs are busy with Phase 4, so I will take whatever happens to come down the pike...cough, cough...Snipe and SS DIII...cough, cough, cough...Morane Parasol and Voisin...cough...

 

 

.

[Olham 164]

RAF_Louvert: Johan's idea of including some of the heavy bombers as AI would be excellent

just so we could have the opportunity to attack them in the campaigns...

 

Indeed - that would raise the immersion AND the fun factor, to attack and bring down the

"Real Big Ones".

[zoomzoom 2]

Good Point you made earlier Olham. A Morane-Saulnier, and a Taube type would help fill out the earlier war period nicely. And they are both Shoulder wing monoplanes, an element not yet seen.......very cool.

 

ZZ.

 

Ahem....shoulder wing other than the Fok EIII of course.

Edited December 28, 2009 by zoomzoom

[OvS 8]

It's really nice to be able to discuss new options for the sim and being given some consideration

Thanks for chewing the fat with us OVS!

Now that I have mt N.28, I'm quite happy, but here's my wish list for the next 5

IIRC the next add-on is to be 2-seaters so I'll concentrate there

1. Salmson 2

2. Breguet BXIV

3. Albatross CIII

4. Rumpler CI

5. Spwith Snipe - Not a 2 seater but this plane has the fun factor

 

 

 

No problem Duce, it's always good to listen to the needs of the players. :)

 

You could break the need list down to a few per nationality based on imiportance to the game as well as value to the campaign.

 

Huns:

Rumpler C.I (C.Ia and C.II) - this plane type was introduced in 1915 and with a few engine swaps, lasted the entire war, much like the DFW.

Halberstad CL.II - a leathal answer to the Brisfit. Used extensively in an attack/bomber role. Often used as escort to other 2-seaters

Albatros C.III - Early to Mid war. Excellent bomber/recon crate.

Aviatik C.I - Early war only - phased out by Albatros C.II and C.III

Pfalz D.XII - late war compliment to the Fokker D.VII series used mostly by Bavarian units in the southern sectors.

AEG type bombers - Night operations

Gotha - used only in Koghol/Boghol 3 and for bombing LHR. Other than that, non-factor in game.

SSW D.III/D.IV - Would be fun to have in the game, saw limited action and had the same mystery behind it as the Fokker E.V. Many mechanical issues with it's engines.

Fokker E.I/E.II and E.IV - Early war expansion.

Fokker D.II/D.III - not as favorable as the Halberstad D.II but saw action

Albatros D.I - Early war and the start of the Albatros 'revolution'

Roland D.II and older variants.

 

Brits:

Snipe - Late war did not see much action as the war was over before it could really make a deep impact. Much like the Pfalz D.XII and Fokker D.VIII.

Airco DH4 - would help with Yanks as well. Great 2-seater.

Big Ack - same as above. Another British workhorse.

Vickers Gunbus - excellent for early war. Many German victories were listed as 'Vickers Type', covering the Entente's early reliance on pusher type planes based on this planes design/profile.

Martinsyde G.100 - first used as a fighter, then better suited for a bomber

BE2a - earlier BE2c variant with pilot/observer reversed.

 

French:

Voisin III - Early war

Cauldron G.IV - heavily used early war aircraft. Classic look of an old WWI plane.

Dorand AR-1 - good mid-war 2 seater for the French, rather than relying on the Sopwith Strutter as an all purpose plane.

Breguet B-14 - perfect for the French to finish the war with and also adding to the USAS as they used it as well.

 

Belgian... oooo! Would be nice!

Hanriot HD-1

 

 

Feel free to add more to the list. It would be nice to have a running one we could use to draw from.

 

OvS