BulletHead , could you comment?

[Guest British_eh]

BH _ "Fokker D.VII, which really had cantilever wings--the interplane struts were just there to make the staff happy. Also, the Dr.I could lose it's whole upper wing but leave the lower 2 OK. That happened to MvR once."

 

Sounds interesting. No expert on MvR, but am interested from a Dr.1 point of view. Could you tell me where I could find this report?

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[Bullethead 12]

Sounds interesting. No expert on MvR, but am interested from a Dr.1 point of view. Could you tell me where I could find this report?

 

In his autobiography. There's the line, "My Fokker triplane suddenly became a biplane." He kept it rightside up and crashed painfully.

[Luther1517 0]

British_eh,

If you would like to read more about the technical aspects of the Dr.I (and many other aircraft), checkout this NASA document. You can't save it to your HD, only the short cut. Some of it is kinda' deep unless you have a Masters in Mech or Areo Eng, but it is still fun to read. It has several good head-to-head comparisons of various A/C. Hope this is of value to you.

 

 

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-468/cover.htm

[Creaghorn 10]

that happened to LvR, not MvR,

[Olham 164]

Good to have a spare third wing, ey? (Sorry, folks, couldn't resist).

 

Creaghorn is right. It happened to LvR on 13. March 1918 in combat,

at 4000 Meter (about 13.000 feet).

 

"Thank god the machine did not go into a dive! With both remaining wings

I could still bring it into a normal glide, but only (flying) straight ahead,

as the rudder no longer functioned."

(from "The Red Baron - Beyond the Legend" by Peter Kilduff)

[Bullethead 12]

Creaghorn is right. It happened to LvR on 13. March 1918 in combat,

at 4000 Meter (about 13.000 feet).

 

Well, it was easy to google the quote. Yup, it was LvR. Strange, I don't recall ever reading his book, and am actually unsure if he even wrote one. Coulda sworn that was in MvR's book.

[Olham 164]

As they where brothers, you could still be right it was in Manfred's book, Bullethead.

[Creaghorn 10]

it was in MvR's book as an epilogue from LvR. it was where he discribed what it was like to fly with his brother and some of his experiences and childhood etc. from his point of view. the picture of LvR with the wires in his face was the result of this incident. i think he never knew the upper wings just collapsed. from what he had written he thought he got hit by ack ack and because of this there was a loud crank and the upper wings were gone.

[Olham 164]

Yep, Creaghorn, it must have been hard to realise what was going on around you.

I find it hard even in a sim often enough - and I have a "pause" button!

[zoomzoom 2]

Yeah....I've seen a pic of his face after that little incident, in a head/jaw brace sorta thingy. Quite ugly, and its not the light impact type of experience he made it out to be.

 

ZZ.

[Guest British_eh]

Hi there:

 

Thanks BH and Luther1517 for your stuff. I am familiar with LvR and so when I first saw your note, it sent a pang of curiosity over this way.

 

In my ( stupid) quest for more info on the Dr.1, I have found some interesting stuff. For instance the dive speed was reputed to be better than one would think and 140 mph is the resaerch number. Interestingly this betters the Sop Camel, at 130 mph.

 

From what I understand the Dr.1 in OFF has had one refit during it's tenure. Does it need to be tweaked agian? The other day it was me against 3 Bristol Fighters. I knocked one down, and holed another, but in the end, I was into a forced landing, which I survived. I am thinking the in general, one on one, or even against 2, as an accomplished pilot, even Aces, you should win. Three does present challenges though. My concern was the aerial manoeuvers that the Brisfits were able to do. I only had about 30 % fuel load, so I should have been able to better them in a turn. Not so, as it seemed about equal. So does the better AI turning than the players plane more than equal the advantage of a real pilot. Yes, I think so, but there comes a point, especailly cognizant at 3:1 odds, that it is just not possible to win with lady luck on your side.

 

I should be able to outclimb a SPAD XIII but in that battle, 3:1 odds, I survived agian, but it was a forced landing.

 

Can or should our planes be able to turn better than the AI, when it's clear that the aircraft in it's day, the Dr.1, could in fact out turn all perhaps except the Nieuport, Camel, and Tripe?

 

I am educationaly biased, but for the short time it was on the Front, it was the best fighter. It didn't kill pilots like the Camel, and from all accounts, was a slightly better preformer, and easier to maintain, than the Tripe. Perhaps it's time for me to build one that reflects what the literature says. In viewing Mikeal Carlsons , (http://www.aerodrome.se/ ) flights in his exact replica, ( even the 110 hp LeRhone engine), it "floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee". He has several vids that are quite complelling as to the characteristics of the aircraft.

 

Regards,

 

British_eh

[Olham 164]

Fine and detailed thoughts there, British_eh.

And again: we should not compare the Tripe and the Dr.1 in a competative way.

The Tripe entered service almost a year before the Dr.1.

Seen in the light of aircraft technology development in those days, that was a long time.

That becomes really obvious by comparing the 1915 Fokker E III Eindecker

to the 1918 Fokker D VII or the SPAD XIII - the development in only 4 years.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Olham, I realize you said we shouldn't compare the two, but I do find it interesting that while the DR1 designers used the Tripe as their springboard, they seem to completely ignore the aileron system used on the Sopwith. Frank Tallman noted in his book "Flying the Old Planes" that the Tripe he flew had much nicer aileron control than the DR1 he tested, (which he described as very heavy). None-the-less, the DR1 was one of the finest "knife fighters" in the War.

 

.

[Olham 164]

What is a "knife fighter", Lou?

 

Here is a video of Mikael Carlson flying his Dr.1 - I enjoyed the bits,

that show him close up in the cockpit in flight; gives you a feel for

your next sortie with OFF!

(His Dreidecker has the original engine!)

 

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Olham, a knife fighter would be someone, or in this case something, deadly agile in very close quarters. He can move and turn so quickly in a close-in fight that he'll cut you before you know what happened.

 

.

[Rickitycrate 10]

I love your pic beneath the sig Lou

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Hey, thanks RC. I found it apropos.

 

.

[JFM 18]

Hi, Guys,

 

Just want to add that LvR did not lose the upper wing of Dr.I 454/17 on 13 March--he exaggerated the damage. He lost a fair bit of fabric and had aileron troubles--the rudder has nothing to do with the wings--but several photos of the crash landing all show the upper wing was there.

 

Behold:

 

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

WHAT'S THIS?! A fighter pilot exaggerating about his brave exploits and daring escapes. No such thing. That's like insinuating fishermen are less than completely honest about the one that got away.

 

.

[Bullethead 12]

Just want to add that LvR did not lose the upper wing of Dr.I 454/17 on 13 March--he exaggerated the damage. ... Behold

 

Question.... Where is the center section of the wing?

 

The caption of the photo says he suffered a "leading edge failure", but the leading is is all that's left. And it's intact, except on the starboard tip where it hit the ground. But all the rest of the upper wing structure between the ailerons is GONE.

 

Anyway, it appears he lost a bit more than 1/2 his top wing area and the little bits that were left at each end and in between don't inspire confidence. So I'd say he EFFECTIVELY lost his upper wing, even if some of it was still attached.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I'm rather fond of how thrilled the soilder looks who had to guard the wreck. I can just about imagine what he was thinking...

 

"Gott im Himmel! Just let me get back to zee mess hall before Schmidt has eaten all zee sauerbraten!"

 

.

[JFM 18]

It is impossible to determine in that photograph how much damage occurred from the terrain impact and/or post-crash examination. One thing is patently clear: LvR's triplane did not "become a biplane," as has been incorrectly stated. The main spar and left and right wings are well visible, still attached to the interplane struts. Compromise of structural integrity damaged ribs and fabric, certainly, but he had well enough wing left to reach earth safely until power lines necessitated low-altitude maneuvering that his damaged plane could not handle and he lost it at the end. Documents show that if the entire Dr.I upper wing, or even most of it, failed and/or departed the airplane, it crashed--a la Gontermann and Pastor; dead. That LvR was able to bring it down to earth in a controlled manner from 4,000 metres is testimony that he was still getting enough lift from the upper wing (that had not departed the airplane) to prevent a fatal dive.

 

Another shot of this event. As compared to the previous photo, note the difference in the wing fabric position and further damage to the right upper wing; unmistakeable evidence of post-crash examination that further betrayed the true extent of damage prior to terrain impact.

 

 

LvR's words [my emphasis]: "Then I heard a loud crash in my machine! It was hit. Only too late I noticed what was wrong. My Fokker triplane suddenly became a biplane. It is a horrible feeling to be minus one wing at four thousand meters. I quickly broke away from my Englishman. He was really quite stupid and did not follow me. Nothing would have been easier than to shoot me down in this condition. With both remaining wings I could still bring it into a normal glide, but only straight ahead, as the rudder no longer functioned." The bold indicates exaggeration. If his upper wing and ailerons were gone and his rudder didn't work, how did he "quickly break away"? An argument can be made that LvR was speaking figuratively but what the rudder had to do with anything regarding structural failure of the upper wing ribs is beyond me. There is debate whether this wing failed as a result of the poor construction that plagued other Dr.Is or if he was hit by return fire, but it is possible his rudder and/or cables could have been damaged by gunfire or debris.

[ConradB 0]

Question.... Where is the center section of the wing?

 

The caption of the photo says he suffered a "leading edge failure", but the leading is is all that's left. And it's intact, except on the starboard tip where it hit the ground. But all the rest of the upper wing structure between the ailerons is GONE.

 

Anyway, it appears he lost a bit more than 1/2 his top wing area and the little bits that were left at each end and in between don't inspire confidence. So I'd say he EFFECTIVELY lost his upper wing, even if some of it was still attached.

 

That's actually the box-spar. Look a the remaining ribs on to portside. It passes through them at midpoint. Lothar was just luckier than Gontermann and Pastor. I read the story a long time ago, but it was something to do with the fabric coming loose from the top plane of the wing, and that it damaged or caused the loss of the starboard aileron. Again, it was a long time ago that I had read the story. It was in one of the books I used to get from the library. The thing is, if you lose the fabric from either the top or bottom side, it effectively disrupts the lifting quality of the wing, and it can cause terrible stability problems. But it appears that Lothar had good skill in handling his crate, and a lot of luck, as it could have easily claimed his life. The facial injuries he received would have been from coming into contact with the butts of the spandaus. They are not very forgiving.

[Olham 164]

Although it was said by Fokker himself, that the Dreidecker did not really need a third wing,

it seems it was not the upper one you could have left out.

Strange thing here is, that not only just the fabric was ripped off, but all ribs are missing!

They are broken off right behind the main wing box bar, and I wonder, if this was another

damage caused by condensed water, that could not evapourate out anywhere and made

the wooden parts rott?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Olham

[Bullethead 12]

It is impossible to determine in that photograph how much damage occurred from the terrain impact and/or post-crash examination. One thing is patently clear: LvR's triplane did not "become a biplane," as has been incorrectly stated. The main spar and left and right wings are well visible, still attached to the interplane struts.

 

Actually, you can tell quite a lot from these pictures. It's clear that the central ribs failed at the rear side of the leading edge, which was a D-shaped assembly. The front spart formed the vertical part of the D, and it was planked from there to the actual leading edge. Every part of the ribs from there back is no longer attached to the airplane.

 

The impact with the ground threw the remaining shreds of central upper fabric forward over the leading edge, so that it hung down in front. Had the rear parts of the central ribs still been attached to this fabric, they would have gone with it and would be seen either hanging over the front of the wing, or on the ground just in front of the plane. They certainly didn't go the other way and hang down behind the upper front spar, or you'd be able to see them through the gap between the upper and central wings.

 

So where is all this missing structure, amounting to about 3/4 of the cord of most of the upper wing ribs, the upper rear spar, and upper trailing edge? The only possible explanation is that separated in flight just as LvR said. Then it came down by a different path to land a considerable distance away from the crash site.

 

Compromise of structural integrity damaged ribs and fabric, certainly, but he had well enough wing left to reach earth safely until power lines necessitated low-altitude maneuvering that his damaged plane could not handle and he lost it at the end. Documents show that if the entire Dr.I upper wing, or even most of it, failed and/or departed the airplane, it crashed--a la Gontermann and Pastor; dead. That LvR was able to bring it down to earth in a controlled manner from 4,000 metres is testimony that he was still getting enough lift from the upper wing (that had not departed the airplane) to prevent a fatal dive.

 

It looks to me more like a matter of luck. LvR suffered a rather different type of failure from the fatal crashes, which left him with a controllable airplane. The other guys' planes broke in different places and apparently what they had left was not controllable. OTOH, it's possible that the other guys might have had controllable airplanes but where KO'd or even killed by wreckage smacking them upside their heads or stabbing them in the chest.

 

Here's Gontermann's wreck: http://www.pourlemerite.org/wwi/air/gontermannplane.gif

 

At first glance this looks quite similar to like LvR's wreck, but note that the remaining piece of the upper wing is in fact the TRAILING EDGE lying upside down as it flipped forward on ground impact. See the aileron in the foreground? So Gontermann did indeed suffer a leading edge failure, unlike LvR. This probably resulted in very large assymetrial drag and lift due to different amounts of wing and wreckage remaining on both sides. And because Gontermann's failure occured well in front of the cockpit instead of essentially over it as with LvR, it's possible he took some wreckage in the face.

 

Also note that Gontermann seems to have hit the ground at about the same angle and speed as LvR, given the similar positions of and damage to their fuselages. So assuming he was still alive when he hit the ground, he MIGHT have survived the impact. And OTOH, LvR might have been killed, too. So there's another bit of luck. At the bottom line, Gontermann MIGHT actually have been under a fair amount of control all the way to the ground, then died on impact, due to an unlucky bounce or being stabbed by a piece of wreckage.

 

Here's Pastor's wreck: http://www.fokkerdr1.com/Dr1-121-17_02.jpg

 

He seems to have hit the ground rather steeper and harder than either LvR or Gontermann, indicating either a much less controllable plane or that he was incapacitated before impact. Otherwise, though, his wreck is much more like Gontermann's than LvR's. Note that again, it's his trailing edge that remains.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that all 3 of these guys were flying biplanes when they hit. All of their upper wings were effectively destroyed. Sure, none of them had come off completely, but what was left sure wasn't contributing to lift. And in the case of at least Pastor and probably Gontermann, the remains were doing more harm than good.