Good night everyone - everywhere on earth - Way way way off topic

[Flyby PC 23]

When I see people lining up to get into £900,000.00 of debt to buy a crappy house costing £350,000.00, which I reckon costs less than £100,000.00 to build with a 50 year design lifespan, you don't have to be a genius to realise it's going to end in tears.

 

Why is it worth £350,000.00? - because the one next door is! Yeah????

 

What I find depressing is the same clowns in suits who created this house of cards are lauded as the experts who're going to fix everything.

 

 

The solution isn't difficult. If you want to buy something for £350,000.00, first of all have £350,000.00, and secondly, make sure what you're buying is actually worth £350,000.00.

 

You'll sleep like a baby.

 

 

 

 

[OvS 8]

So far so good guys... keep all emotions in check, and on subject... this is a very good topic!

 

Belive me... I feel it in NY, and have strong opinions about the guy called Barry... but I will restrain myself and simply monitor this one.

 

 

:)

 

 

All the best!

 

OvS

[Von Paulus 8]

Belive me... I feel it in NY, and have strong opinions about the guy called Barry... but I will restrain myself and simply monitor this one.

 

Sorry but not being an American, who is that Barry? If you write the second name I'll google it.

[FastCargo 412]

Quite honestly, we have it easy.

 

I want you to take note of what the human race has suffered through since the existence of modern Homo Sapien:

 

1. Multiple Ice Ages

2. The Black Plague...estimated to have killed 13 to 22% of the world's population...some countries approached 70% mortality...think about what that would mean in modern numbers.

 

Those are the biggies...there are tons of smaller events that humans have suffered through, survived and eventually thrived from.

 

Individually, we may suffer, but in the long run, I fully expect the human race to progress.

 

FC

[Fortiesboy 3]

When I see people lining up to get into £900,000.00 of debt to buy a crappy house costing £350,000.00, which I reckon costs less than £100,000.00 to build with a 50 year design lifespan, you don't have to be a genius to realise it's going to end in tears.

 

I agree

 

 

The solution isn't difficult. If you want to buy something for £350,000.00, first of all have £350,000.00, and secondly, make sure what you're buying is actually worth £350,000.00.

 

No, the solution is difficult. If you haven't got a home and if you haven't got £350,000!.

 

Most people need a home. Most responding here will have a home or a mortgage keeping them in a home, so Mr McCawber economics can apply to most other possessions, but some people can be trying their damndest working 60 hours a week, but still be in a position where buying a home is impossible.

All because of greedy suits.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I agree totally with FB...As I said earlier..the situation we find ourselves in is because of GREED.

 

Greedy Business Moguls...Greedy Bankers, GREED GREED GREED...I have Millions...and I want MORE!!!

 

Here's £50 for those starving African's (they bring it on themselves you know?...I would give £100...but they'd probably just buy guns with it)

 

Yes...that's right..I am Paul McCartney...I have more Millions than you poor people will ever have!...I use it to rescue Lobsters don't ya know?....Cos I'm a C****

[Olham 164]

Widowmaker in top-form again! But you're right, greed is definitely a major factor.

 

Greed, and the fact that it doesn't seem to be quenchable for so many of these diggers.

I wish, they could really find peace and enjoyment in something, love for something or

someone. Then it would be enough to have a wife and kids, a home, a garden, a car or

motorbike, or maybe even both, that's okay still - and something like "Over Flanders fields"

 

What I mean is - greed seems to be the desperate attempt to fill a hole inside you, were

the love should be.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Olham

[Mr. Lucky 0]

Widowmaker in top-form again! But you're right, greed is definitely a major factor.

 

Greed, and the fact that it doesn't seem to be quenchable for so many of these diggers.

I wish, they could really find peace and enjoyment in something, love for something or

someone. Then it would be enough to have a wife and kids, a home, a garden, a car or

motorbike, or maybe even both, that's okay still - and something like "Over Flanders fields"

 

What I mean is - greed seems to be the desperate attempt to fill a hole inside you, were

the love should be.

 

 

It's because they want what everyone wants. HAPPINESS. But they never get it because they don't realize that those things: millions, big houses, etc. don't make you happy. You need to find happiness first. Then they can experience life from that vantage point and this infectious greed goes away. (In the best of all possible worlds). But, this greed is drummed into us from conception. Because of that greed and more, we are taught. bombarded, brain washed that we must have these these things or our lives are meaningless. How many kids do you see starting out anting the 350,000 house that they'll pay three times that amount for over the life of the mortgage? It's a vicious cycle that can't be stopped unless by catastrophic means because it's too endemic. One of the great things about this country is what I did, which, if I were a young kid I'd do over.I bought a small piece of cheap land and built my own small house. All for less than 25,000. If I need more room, I can add on. But, most importantly, I satisfied a basic human need without lining the pockets of a greedy 'suit' so he can have a 5 million dollar birthday party. The establishment has us in it's grips from the beginning, takes away our self-reliance and laughs while we joyously dance our way into their economic prisons.

 

Fortiesboy is partially right. What he left out is that the home shouldn't cost 350,000 to begin with. Theses 'economists' scratch their heads and run models but can't realize that when the cost of basic necessities is driven extremely high outside of market forces like housing, food, utilities and fuel, then there's no sustaining foundation and things will collapse. We can only hope that a movement develops over the generations where the people become more self-reliant, a 'black market' system grows to undermine the current economic machine and the governments are forced to get their tendrils out of our lives and do what they are mandated to do by the people.

[OvS 8]

Widowmaker in top-form again! But you're right, greed is definitely a major factor.

 

Greed, and the fact that it doesn't seem to be quenchable for so many of these diggers.

I wish, they could really find peace and enjoyment in something, love for something or

someone. Then it would be enough to have a wife and kids, a home, a garden, a car or

motorbike, or maybe even both, that's okay still - and something like "Over Flanders fields"

 

What I mean is - greed seems to be the desperate attempt to fill a hole inside you, were

the love should be.

 

I agree... greed is killing everything. Right now, the cabin crew of BA (my employer) is on strike, basically for reasons of greed... the company is not giving in, and wants to take from the union for reasons of greed. It really sad to see this. The whole airline will suffer, and many will loose their job, possibly yours truly as well... for greed.

 

Obama just signed a bill into law that gives 'free' governmental health insurance to all... derived from the greed of insurance companies, and companies not willing to give their employees proper health beneifts... all based on reasons of greed.

 

How is it a CEO can haul in 700% more than the average employee he has working for him? Greed. The bonuses of many of these CEO's would easily afford the average employee of that company a very fair and equitable amount of health insurance... like it used to be back in the 70's and 80's. We wouldn't need all of these governmental programs at all. Every employee of every company around the world should have the basics to survive. It's what we are there for, to not only make a living, but to provide a life for our familes and ourselves. The others that are out of work can then have government backed insurance, and the elderly can fend for themselves... errr.. sorry... just kidding... they should automatically be covered.... not matter what is wrong with them... period.

 

Not any more.

 

OvS

Edited March 27, 2010 by OvS

[Olham 164]

James, I hope and wish for you, that you will keep your job.

I have followed the debates - or should I say: battles - for and against a general health insurance in the US.

I was very surprised about all the commotion and anger.

I do not know the reasons, that may speak against it; I only know the positive side.

Here in Germany, we have a "general health insurance", and also many ways to pay for a (more expensive)

"private health insurance". So all people have a basic health care; and those who pay for more, get more.

 

It seems to me, as if there is an almost desperate trend going on, to drag out and store as much money as

any possible.

When will it be realised by those who do that, that you cannot inflate the value of one working man's hour,

of one bag of rice or wheat - it is still only one bag of rice or wheat; you can still only bake the same amount

of bred loafs of it.

Their gigantic virtual value bubble must burst.

But not on the expenses of the normal working taxed working man.

Let them wipe the virtual value out with a wet sponge on a blackboard.

Let it burst to the banks' and finance managers' expenses - let it burst virtually -

and then let them all realise: a bag of wheat is a bag of wheat again - no more. And no less!

Edited March 27, 2010 by Olham

[Hasse Wind 46]

Endless greed combined with increasingly globalized capitalism of major corporations (government of the corporations, by the corporations and for the corporations) is a problem that I hope will be solved in the future before things get completely out of hand. In the past, even big corporations had at least some sense of patriotism, but that doesn't exist anymore, only the small companies are still interested in supporting their local communities. And the big corporations will always find some s**thole where people are so poor that they are willing to accept any kind of barbaric treatment and work almost 24/7 to make a few bucks to support them and their families. It's pretty difficult to try to compete with that in the West.

 

More people should be introduced to OFF. It would increase their happiness and they would become less greedy.

[Wallaroo 0]

THE man c0000:

So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them . . .

 

UK Widowmaker c2010:

Well, at the end of the day, we as Human Beings have brought it on ourselves. There is enough food to feed the entire worlds population, but we don't. There is fundamental greed throughout the Western Cultures of the world, where the Stupidly Rich give the least, and take the most....and Catch has said it perfectly! Until we start to give as well as receive, we are on the slippery slope...and if that leads to the demise of mankind..we have no-one to blame but ourselves...and the planet will be a much nicer place when we're gone!

 

IMHO:

It's not the fault of media moguls - it's not the fault of poltico-economic philosophies/theories/parties/governments. The blame lies with us - me and you. THE man had it right!

[rabu 9]

THE man c0000:

So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them . . .

 

UK Widowmaker c2010:

Well, at the end of the day, we as Human Beings have brought it on ourselves. There is enough food to feed the entire worlds population, but we don't. There is fundamental greed throughout the Western Cultures of the world, where the Stupidly Rich give the least, and take the most....and Catch has said it perfectly! Until we start to give as well as receive, we are on the slippery slope...and if that leads to the demise of mankind..we have no-one to blame but ourselves...and the planet will be a much nicer place when we're gone!

 

IMHO:

It's not the fault of media moguls - it's not the fault of poltico-economic philosophies/theories/parties/governments. The blame lies with us - me and you. THE man had it right!

 

 

Speak for your self?

Greed.. First you have to have more then you need, and that exists for only about 10% of this country. Wanting more in order to have the basic comforts of living in a country this wealthy.. a home, good food, comfort, the ability to send ones kids to college.. the ability to even be able to afford to pay to have kids and raise them. The ability to have time for recreation and enjoyment.. most people in this country want these things and DON'T have them.. that isn't greed. "THAT man" would have also said, thow the money lenders out, etc.

 

Greed and corruption have taken over a lot of our government and the only blame I see is that most of us have let that happen by not getting involved and informed about how this country is run and what is really happening. A lot of our population has been dupped into accepting policies that only benefit the very rich, accepting token benefits, going along with fear politics, and not realizing how much the changes will eventually come back to haunt them.. and we are now seeing this, BIG TIME. And these policies of greed and exploitation are also being spred to take advantage of other countries, and are also now back fireing on us and the rest of the world.

 

I wouldn't want to be a young person growing up in this counry today, it's bad enough at my age, I feel very fortunate to have the little bit that I still do have, on the positive side, I have no guilt about being greedy.

[themightysrc 5]

"Right now, the cabin crew of BA (my employer) is on strike, basically for reasons of greed"

 

Whilst you qualified this statement by referring also to BA management, I would like to place on record my view. The workers at BA are being systematically bullied by their management in an attempt to deunionise - and therefore neuter - the workforce. Willie Walsh has a long history of such attempts at macho management in other positions, and he has not changed his spots. Unite members are absolutely entitled to defend their terms and conditions against this form of intimidation and blackmail. It is regrettable that any industrial dispute is also portrayed - at least in the UK media - as being the fault of unions and the workforce. Let us be clear: BA had good industrial relations with their workforce prior to Walsh's arrival, and now they lie in the gutter. I'm certainly not going to blame people whose only crime is to stand up for their T&Cs.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Have to disagree with you on one of your points Rabu.

 

When you have a population (such as those in the US and UK) who drive around one person in a car...when 1/3 of the population is morbidly Obese...when the UK owes £1 Trillion in debt, and half the worlds population earn in a lifetime, what my household earns in 12 months....that sounds pretty much like greed to me!

[carrick58 23]

I was showing some of the WWI airplane pics to my oldest Grandson the other day. The one he commented on was the pic of MvR landing by a victim. His coment went something like " look hes going for the guys wallet " Sad to say he is a Teenager.

[rabu 9]

Have to disagree with you on one of your points Rabu.

 

When you have a population (such as those in the US and UK) who drive around one person in a car...when 1/3 of the population is morbidly Obese...when the UK owes £1 Trillion in debt, and half the worlds population earn in a lifetime, what my household earns in 12 months....that sounds pretty much like greed to me!

 

True, but now you're looking at non relative comparisons.. Yes, you can look at a country that is rich like the US, UK, etc. and when you compare them to poor countries it looks like true greed and is in many ways, but on what level? There is no excuse for having the same poor conditions in a country that is rich, like the USA where there are areas of almost every state with similar poor conditions with hungry kids and adults who can't afford anything or can't get jobs and the social programs have been cut back more and more. And it's interesting that percentage wise, the middle class (what's left of it) and lower middle class are more generous in trying to help others then those with the most money, when you look at the relative amounts of their charitable contributions compared to their earnings.. they've done studies on it. The growing number of families in the USA are having a hard time making it, I'm sure it's the same in the UK. They may have a car or two, but usually both parents are forced to work, they are loosing their houses because of being laid off or because of health issues and they can't afford to send their kids to college, not to mention all the other problems going on. Play things, cars, TV's, etc., have gotten cheaper over the years while necessities like food and shelter health and education have sky rocketed. Meanwhile, those at the top just get richer, at the expense of the rest of the population and those in the other poor countries that they have exploited for their own greed.

 

So, yea, even poor families in the UK may be the envy of someone living in a poor country, but that doesn't mean they are greedy, IMHO. I also hope that though education we can make changes though, cut out a lot of the waste you mention, and help other countries develop and improve their conditions. I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about it though, I think those with power have too much to do much about them.. hope I'm wrong.

 

[catch 81]

Setting achievable goals. Saving. Discipline. And even OMG ..... going without. These are not fashionable. Too old school.

 

People seem to just want it all right here right now without any effort or discipline or planning. They think it is their right. What a load of bollocks. No wonder the world's in a mess. The masses have been conned but oh so stupid for falling for the fairytale. Greenspan. What a jerk.

[Flyby PC 23]

Setting achievable goals. Saving. Discipline. And even OMG ..... going without. These are not fashionable. Too old school.

 

People seem to just want it all right here right now without any effort or discipline or planning. They think it is their right. What a load of bollocks. No wonder the world's in a mess. The masses have been conned but oh so stupid for falling for the fairytale. Greenspan. What a jerk.

 

 

Greed isn't new. Not so long ago the sun never set on the British Empire.

 

I think the problem is the level of expectation we have. We expect we'll be able to afford to buy a house. We expect we'll be able to afford a car. We expect there'll be a place at University for our children. We expect we'll have a good pension when we retire.

 

In the past, people might hope for these things, but wouldn't take any of them for granted.

 

In 1953, the percentage of home ownership in the UK was 35%. It's now 70%, and we're constantly reminded how first time buyers need to get on the property ladder now or fall into the bottomless pit of despair. We're encouraged to raise our aspirations higher and higher, and it's this which makes our society so easy to manipulate and exploit.

 

We all need to start living within our means, - whatever those means are. Money you borrow is never yours. Once your in debt, 'they've' got you.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Flyby PC

[Wallaroo 0]

It seems we're all happy to acknowledge the problem - and apportion blame - but what about the answer to it?

I still say THE man (JC) gave us the answer: 'So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them . . .' (Matthew 7:12)

Even if that means giving away to someone in real need what we've got and really don't need.

But I keep forgetting - everybody's need is the same as mine, isn't it?

We all need just a little bit more.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Rabu

 

Your points are very valid...I think what I am trying to say, is that it's the unfair distribution of wealth (which may or may not be put down to greed) that I have always had a problem with.

Yes, the Middle class are suffering hardship in the economic crises, but Wallaroo may, quite justifyably say imho..that it's been a long time coming.

 

The poor have always suffered... I have personal experience of what it's like to be homeless and hungry.

 

It's all relative I guess, but the middle class (certainly in the UK) have lived it up...spending money they don't have, on their big houses...expensive cars..and top notch consumer products....and now the bottom has fallen out of their fantasy world...and they are upset about it, trying to blame the Banks, Credit Companies and government...when, in fact it's their own fault.

 

I am not finger pointing...for the simple reason...I was one of them! (though having, I hope.. a modicum of common sense, I could see what was coming, so pulled the reigns in before disaster struck.)

 

Quite a few people who I know didn't...and are now paying the price sadly...

 

I would have thought that the government too, could have seen it coming...especially after (what was effectively.. A run on the Banks!) that we were headed into stormy waters...but no...they continued to spend, spend, spend...and use our Tax Money, to bail out the fat cat Bankers!

 

But that's democracy I guess...which is of course, the very WORST way to run a Country...(until you look at the alternatives!)

 

BTW...this is a great discussion, and thank you OvS for keeping it open!!

Edited March 29, 2010 by UK_Widowmaker

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Setting achievable goals. Saving. Discipline. And even OMG ..... going without. These are not fashionable. Too old school.

 

People seem to just want it all right here right now without any effort or discipline or planning. They think it is their right. What a load of bollocks. No wonder the world's in a mess. The masses have been conned but oh so stupid for falling for the fairytale. Greenspan. What a jerk.

 

 

My sentiments exactly

[Olham 164]

Thanks all for your contributions. I think it's okay mostly here - we can talk about politics,

as long as we don't start going on about specific persons.

It can still be generally described without using specific names. That keeps it a debate,

instead of making it a flame war. Thanks you guys.

[OvS 8]

"Right now, the cabin crew of BA (my employer) is on strike, basically for reasons of greed"

 

Whilst you qualified this statement by referring also to BA management, I would like to place on record my view. The workers at BA are being systematically bullied by their management in an attempt to deunionise - and therefore neuter - the workforce. Willie Walsh has a long history of such attempts at macho management in other positions, and he has not changed his spots. Unite members are absolutely entitled to defend their terms and conditions against this form of intimidation and blackmail. It is regrettable that any industrial dispute is also portrayed - at least in the UK media - as being the fault of unions and the workforce. Let us be clear: BA had good industrial relations with their workforce prior to Walsh's arrival, and now they lie in the gutter. I'm certainly not going to blame people whose only crime is to stand up for their T&Cs.

 

Then you guys need to get your point out louder... over here, it's not being portrayed that way. I support the Cabin, not Willie. And you're 100% right... he destroyed Aer Lingus, why in hell BA hired him no one knows, but he's really working the email, intranet, and other BA media sources to make the cabin crew look really bad. Meanwhile, you hear nothing from the Cabin other than they're on strike, and don't care. I constantly argue with fellow employees about the point that he's pushing us into the gutter, but for whatever reason my 16 years with the company doesn't seem to convince people enough that this is the WORST BA I've ever seen. Worst than Ayling... which many considered to be the beginning of the end.

 

From a fellow laborist's point of view, stick it to him. If we go down, at least we fought to the end. After this, BA will never be the same anyway...

 

I think what really make me and many of the Brits I work with angry is the turn-face attitude of PM Brown, who was supported by Unite and the Labor Party. He's backing Willie. I just hope in the end, somehow, Willie is ousted by the Board. I love BA, and have since I started 16 years ago. It was a lot of fun, I've seen the world, I've met a ton of wonderful people... but now it's being compared to Pan Am, which was lost due to poor management. I hope the fate of BA is not the same.

 

OvS

Edited March 29, 2010 by OvS

[zoomzoom 2]

"More people should be introduced to OFF. It would increase their happiness and they would become less greedy. "

 

 

 

True...........But now I want a REAL ALbatros DVa.

 

 

ZZ.