Good night everyone - everywhere on earth - Way way way off topic

[Flyby PC 23]

Just a distinction Duce, the nanny state isn't the welfare system, but health and safety requirements which fly in the face of common sense. One example would be kids forced to wear goggles when playing conkers, or teachers having to stand back and watch somebody being assaulted because they're not allowed to lay a hand on the bully. - There are some nanny overtones about paying tax to support spongers who get everything on a plate, but the NHS is something quite separate from that kind of welfare. The 'nanny' sentiment is most commonly expressed when there's a feeling the system has gone to far, or over-reacted. It isn't the system itself, but where the system has failed or got something wrong.

 

I don't buy your self help argument. It's what I meant when I said rich folks will be hiring mercenaries because the army is under funded. It's a delusion. They might feel better about it in the short term, but you don't get a better army out of it, but fractured and ineffective bands of militia all pulling in different directions to suit their own agenda. Who pays for research? A good big 'un is always better than a good little 'un as they say. Don't you think it's fairer for everybody to pay a little less into a collective kitty which supports a centralised army and/or system of healthcare which is open, fair and free to all?

 

And nor do I buy your 'teaching a man to fish' argument either. You're actually expressing a socialist concept which has nothing to do with free market economics. In a ruthless free market economy, why should I as teacher, forfeit my time to teach somebody else to fish? The hungier he gets, the more I can charge per lesson, and if he actually starves to death then there's all the more fish for me and my family. Besides, if I teach him how to fish, he might start teaching others and then I'm out of a job. Teach him to fish? Don't be daft. Fk 'em. He can come and buy my fish, today, and tomorrow, and the day after .....That's the free market economy for you.

 

Teach a man to shoot buffalo, and he'll feed his family for what, about 100 years or so, and see the last 30 million buffalo wiped out to virtual extinction inside 10 years. Self reliant pioneers alright....... of unregulated free market economics.

[Olham 164]

Well, we all know, that the 'previous president' was not so well regarded in Europe;

but that was not the case in the USA; so again: a bit more respect for other people's

views could do us all good.

 

By blaming a president - no matter which one - we make it too easy for ourselves.

Blame the guy for this or that, call him bad names etc. - that all gives the man too

much importance. In a democracy, there are so many more forces active - no president

can get away with a bad idea, if the others don't let him get away with it.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Ah yes Olham...but the fact we all live in a Democracy, which allows us freedom of speech, and with it, freedom to criticise.

 

I take your point though...this isn't the place to conduct a smear campaign (even for long forgotten about Presidents/Prime Ministers etc)

 

So, I will not mention Gordon Brown at all......honest

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Olham, you have hit on one of the core problems in your last post Sir. We do allow our elected officials to get away with anything and everything and then blame them for it. And, IMHO, we do so because, for the most part, the average U.S. citizen does not want to be bothered with having to deal with anything beyond his or her own little world. This condition is the primary reason my country is going to Hell in a hand basket. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't a lot of good folks around here, there are. But we have become so used to having someone else "fix the problem" that we don't dig in and help the way we used to. Instead, we immediately look to Uncle Sam to take care of it. And then we are angered, shocked, and dismayed when it doesn't happen the way WE think it should, or at a cost that is going to affect our own little world and cause us some personal discomfort. You only have to look at the drop in volunteerism over the last five decades to see a blatant illustration of how we, personally, don't want to be bothered. While it's true that many will pitch in to assist during some short term crisis, such as a flood or a hurricane or a forest fire, it is only for that brief moment, and then it's back to business as usual. If anyone here in the United States of America wants to see the real problem with our country, they need only go as far as their bathroom mirror.

 

If you truly believe there are things desperately wrong with your country and you want them to change, then by God go do something about it! Work for change, help a neighbor in need, vote corruption out of office, start a new political party, look to your God to guide you, do what you believe in your heart is right and just, find your way in a nation that seems to have lost its own. Change starts with the individual, not the society. You want the dream of a great and good society? Then go out and live the dream everyday, and don't give up just because it's hard or it didn't change in a week, or a year, or a lifetime. It took nearly a century to build Notre Dame Cathedral and involved tens of thousands of laborers, artisians, and craftsmen commited to the task. How long and how many people do you think it should take to build a strong, just, vibrant nation that can survive the test of time? It is easy to criticize and not work to find solutions, but it changes absolutely nothing. How about we all start rolling up our sleeves, digging in our heels, and putting our backs and brains into fixing what is broken.

 

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[Olham 164]

Well, knowing it's you, Widowmaker - you can't possibly expect an Englishman

to follow the rules, except at Cricket, Snooker and football. (No, forget football).

 

Spot on, Lou! And I'd like to replace just one word:

...do what you believe KNOW in your heart is right...

Cause we all know very well, I think.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Olham Sir, for someone who's native tongue is not English, you honestly have a better command of the language than many who learned it as their first. I agree, "know" is a far better choice in this instance.

 

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[Von Paulus 8]

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Olham, you have hit on one of the core problems in your last post Sir. We do allow our elected officials to get away with anything and everything and then blame them for it. And, IMHO, we do so because, for the most part, the average U.S. citizen does not want to be bothered with having to deal with anything beyond his or her own little world. This condition is the primary reason my country is going to Hell in a hand basket. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't a lot of good folks around here, there are. But we have become so used to having someone else "fix the problem" that we don't dig in and help the way we used to. Instead, we immediately look to Uncle Sam to take care of it. And then we are angered, shocked, and dismayed when it doesn't happen the way WE think it should, or at a cost that is going to affect our own little world and cause us some personal discomfort. You only have to look at the drop in volunteerism over the last five decades to see a blatant illustration of how we, personally, don't want to be bothered. While it's true that many will pitch in to assist during some short term crisis, such as a flood or a hurricane or a forest fire, it is only for that brief moment, and then it's back to business as usual. If anyone here in the United States of America wants to see the real problem with our country, they need only go as far as their bathroom mirror.

 

If you truly believe there are things desperately wrong with your country and you want them to change, then by God go do something about it! Work for change, help a neighbor in need, vote corruption out of office, start a new political party, look to your God to guide you, do what you believe in your heart is right and just, find your way in a nation that seems to have lost its own. Change starts with the individual, not the society. You want the dream of a great and good society? Then go out and live the dream everyday, and don't give up just because it's hard or it didn't change in a week, or a year, or a lifetime. It took nearly a century to build Notre Dame Cathedral and involved tens of thousands of laborers, artisians, and craftsmen commited to the task. How long and how many people do you think it should take to build a strong, just, vibrant nation that can survive the test of time? It is easy to criticize and not work to find solutions, but it changes absolutely nothing. How about we all start rolling up our sleeves, digging in our heels, and putting our backs and brains into fixing what is broken.

 

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You're right RAF. I see the abstention numbers raising with which new election. That's the most civil basic thing to do, to vote and choose your representatives.

When I question people why they don't go the electoral urns and vote , their reply is always the same, that they don't trust anymore in the politicians and their vote won't change a thing. I asked then why not to vote in white, at least it means something that you do care. But no, they prefer to take a walk, go to the beach or whatever. I'm so ashame of my people.

I'm from the time, though I was very younger, where there was a dictatorship ruling my country (for 48 years), and you couldn't vote freely. I will never forget the first democratic elections, there was a run to local ballots. With time, this urge has vanished and was replaced by laziness. When this kind of things happen I know what History tells. Corruption and greed raises. And then to clean all this mess a brand new dictatorship will rise.

This lack of interest in our civic duties acts like a cancer in our democratic system.

[JimAttrill 24]

Sorry to get off US Healthcare for the moment, but regarding the BA strike, what impact will the merger with (or takeover of?) Iberia have? I saw some interesting stats the other day that showed that from a personnel point of view Iberia is about 100% more efficient than BA. Your comment on this OVS please.

 

Of course there are lies, damn lies and statistics ......

[rabu 9]

Well I think we've both made our viewpoints clear enough

We have both chosen the political philosophy that most closely aligns to our individual beliefs (not the other way around)

 

The debate is an old one:

Who is responsible for an individual?

Is the State required to provide for all his needs? (Welfare, Healthcare, etc.)

Or is the individual required to provide for his own needs (self reliance), with the State taking a limited role? (Roads, Municipal Services, etc.)

 

But my closing remarks will be based on a simple saying

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime

...snip....

 

Rabu, I'm sure you'll counter with some left wing website that hails the social success of welfare

...or write it off as right wing propaganda

That's fine, I yield to you the last word

We've beat this dog enough

But the real national opinion on healthcare will be cast come November

 

 

But we aren't doing that, are we? We aren't teaching everyone how to fish, because there aren't enough fish for everyone.. more and more, the fish are all in a private pond owned by those at the top, the "Kings," as it were, who have most of the wealth and the rest have no access to those fish. The Kings have managed to more and more get government to allow them to make more and more money at the expense of most of the rest of the people. They lay off their workers, who have no place else to go, they cut back their wages and benefits, erase their pensions though bankruptcy laws and other means, then hord all the wealth while the infranstructure crumbles and they even sniffle the ability of one to learn to fish, for the dwindling fish available.. we are allowing just the opposite of what you suggest to happen.

 

Yep, I believe in a sharing humanity, where no one needs to suffer, not the survival of the fittest (most wealthy in today's terms or those left in what's left of a shrinking middle class).. we are supposedly above the animal kingdom, though many times I wonder about that too. So, it really comes down to, either you only care about yourself, or you care about everyone else as well.

 

The point you are ignoring is that things aren't at all as simple as you make it out to be.. there are two main considerations that you seem to ignore:

 

We aren't living back in the times when one could easily survive through simply working hard.. ie: farming, trade, etc. We live in a situation of heavy populations with out enough jobs and dependence on national and now global supply, not small rural existence. More and more, the jobs available are only service level, low paying jobs that don't pay enough to support a family, much less keep them healthy and secure. Technology jobs are decreasing as computers (and robots next) take over. The most prosperous years in the USA were in the 50's when tax rates were the highest for those at the top. There was a healthy, well off middle class who could afford to buy a house, raise a family and send their kids to college. Jobs were plentiful, and things were being actually made and sold, not speculation in stock markets, and though those at the top moaned about having to pay so much in taxes, and that it would make prices go up, it did just the opposite and it didn't affect their life styles a smidgen. But starting with the Kennedys, "tax reforms" (loop holes) were slowly passed and then, the later, more drastic "trickle down" theory began to screw down the lid on the coffin.. it obviously didn't work, but it enabled the greedy power elite to get their foot in the door of government and it's been all down hill for the rest of the country, and the world, ever since then.

 

If you are going to set up an economy where most of the wealth is funneled to a small percentage at the top who more and more have almost absolute power, you better try to keep a government in place that doesn't become completely corrupted as their pawns or you will end up with chaos and revolt if nothing is done to take care of your citizens. And then you have to decide if you are going to be a humanitarian and take care of those who can't afford to survive, or say it's their own fault because they are lazy, build bigger walls and hire your own army to keep them out of reach and out of site. It's already happening in other countries and it will happen here too if nothing is done about it. Not a pretty picture...

[Duce Lewis 3]

... ... ... Ahhh, as much as I'd like to respond...

Time to stick a fork in it, it's done

 

Touche' Rabu, good luck in November

Hey, now that we're in the Pub