64 bit PC utilization of RAM

[Wrongway 0]

hello yous guys,

I just had troubles playing with WOE/WOV/SF2-WOI

and discovered the following.

 

To get full use of ram on a 64 bit machine the motherboard has to be able to handle all ram plus hardware addresses like video cards and stuff.

 

If you want 1GB of full 64 bit useage you need 8GB of RAM.

 

if you want to use all 8GB of that ram you most probably need 16GB capability in your motherboard but install only 8GB of ram.

 

It seems due to harware like a video card with 1GB you will need at least 1GB more capability in your motherboard than the ram you want installed ??

 

It seems that some RAM is wasted if you install 8GB on an 8GB board or 16GB on a 16GB board.

The wasted ram is the space which is dedicated to hardware like video cards etc..

 

NO ram is wasted if you install 8GB on a 16GB motherboard ?

 

Comments ?

[MoonGoose 4]

"It seems due to harware like a video card with 1GB you will need at least 1GB more capability in your motherboard than the ram you want installed ??"

VRAM (videocard ram) doesn't count in the max RAM amount of a motherboard. neither VRAM will merge or share with the system RAM.

 

"To get full use of ram on a 64 bit machine the motherboard has to be able to handle all ram plus hardware addresses like video cards and stuff."

well the hardware addresses occupy a very very few KBs in RAM.

if i could build a new system for games, if DDR3 i'll go with 3 DIMMS 2GB each for 6Gigs. If DDR2 i'll go 4 DIMMS 2GB each for 8Gigs.

my ATI HD4870 with 512mb suffer in newer games even in 1680x1050 with filters up... i say from now on we should use minimum 1Gb video cards and 2Gb video cards for a good system lifetime... and DX11 compliant is a must.

Please explain here what sort of problem you got with WOx games... and post system specs + operating system plz.

[Wrongway 0]

Dont mean to be rude but system specs are not needed here.

Im using a quad core at 2Ghz and DDR2 PC8500 Synchronous ram

overclocked at 500 instead of 400 MHz.

Cas is 5-5-5-18 I think.

 

Im having a problem UNDERSTANDING how these new machines use ram.

 

WOx needs as much ram as possible or you get slight warping effects or

slow frame rates.

 

I have in my machine max ram of 4GB yet it is divided funny like 0 to 3x1024 and 4x1024 to 5x1024

when I use one bios. If I use a later bios the ram is divided differently like

0 to 3327MB and another section 4096MB to 4864MB.

 

All the ram is here yet WIN VISTA does not want to use all of it above the division in it.

 

It seems this is a problem well known to experts and what I see now

is if you want all 4GB to be used you need an 8GB motherboard.

 

If you want 8GB to all be used (64 bit quad coreCPU) Win Vista 64

You need a 16GB motherboard.

 

You can have up to and including 1GB of unusable ram if you max out your motherboard.

 

Or so it seems.

 

This is a general thing and not only WOx problem.

 

I need more than 2 GB on my 64 bit machine to get these modern day games to run right.

 

At this time I would recommend a DDR3 ram of 8GB, 64 bit OS, quad core CPU 3GHz

1GB video card ( dont waste your money on two SLI thingys unless something special is going on)

16 GB motherboard with 1066/1600 FSB capabilities. AND a 64 bit OS like vista ultimate or newer.

I figure with such a machine you will not have the troubles like myself in getting things to run right.

 

My machine is a generation behind whats there today.

Ir seems Architecture has been built only for WINXP yet Im using it for WIN vista 64.

 

I hope it makes sense to you, I was looking for people to comment on this.

Motherboard people are selling boards not really meant for 64 BIT gaming as gaming stuff.

On a 64 bit machine the data words are all 64 bits wide thats 8 bytes so if you want

1Gword of data ram you need 8GB of RAM all used by the system.

According to what I see if you want to use the full capacity of the motherboard

you need to include hardware addresses as well as RAM in its full addressing capability.

 

MACINE adsdresses like VIDEO CARD ( within the video card) + Addresses in audio card + USB + COM + Printer + Whatever + RAM + BIOS

This means you need at least 1GB more of ram slot capability than you want to have free.

 

Synchronous ram MUST HAVE TWO IDENTICAL DDR2 cards to work right and no divided ram.

 

LIKE 2 GB on one card and 1 GB on the other is triple-uncool.

You must have 2GB on one and 2GB on the other.

Or cant realize the true benefits of having Synchronous DDR2 ram.

 

Someone needs to set legal standards in this computer revolution

so we can realize the full potential of our machines.

Without breaking our wallets.

Without a lot of misleading and non-user-friendly socially engineered advertising political propaganda.

Just to sell their old Obsolete Motherboards as if they are State Of The Art.

I really really do not like how these foreign industries are disposing of their obsolete inventory.

 

Cheers :-)

[MoonGoose 4]

well regarding WOx and SF2x series, i saw my SF2 process using 914Mb RAM on Win7 64 when running a merged SF2+SF2V+SF2E with 315 planes and 2000+ weapon folders. in a modded NF4+ campaign (heavy germanyCE with high details, unlimited cockpit, environment mod, unlimited effects) and DX10 mode.

 

anyway the synchronous you're talking about is DUAL CHANNEL or SINGLE CHANNEL.

 

to run DUAL CHANNEL your system needs to see 2 similar (better identicals or paired) banks of ram (similars because they need to run at same timings and need to be the same size and density) on the DUAL CHANNEL slots. (usually paired in colors)

 

if the pair is not similar (different size, different density, different JEDEC timing and speed) they have to be put in SINGLE CHANNEL slots.

 

my system now 4 years old have 2x1Gb TEAMGROUP DDR2 667 clocked at 800 4-4-4-12 and system see 2048Mb ram. now with some browsers open and background apps i have 34% memory used. (122Mb paged, 348Mb cached, 1494Mb available).

when i run SF2 doing a NF4+ campaign, i still have near 500Mb RAM free. no bottlenecks at all, 60FPS all the time. if you want to run ALL on unlimited settings with 60 fixed FPS you need a HD5870 or a old GTX480.

 

the only reason you could go 8Gb or more RAM now is to have a system good for at least 4 years. then you need to get a 5870 or wait the nextgen cards for summer end.

 

4 cores are useless in ThirdWire engine and useless in almost all games... the core i3 is even enough to go GPU limited in.

 

even my E6600@3.6Ghz is still enough to stay GPU limited. and the second core is never occupied at 100% in games.

 

 

 

4Gb ram and a good dualcore CPU with a 4870 is still enough for 1680x1050 with filters.

 

EDIT: i entirely quote you all the line about marketing rules about consumer segment. Hardware potential is impressive but software and operating systems are made (badly) to squeeze resources... to let the hardware manufacturers continue to sell more and more.

Edited July 12, 2010 by MoonGoose

[xclusiv8 35]

Wrongway: It is your slow cpu that is giving you bad frames.

[Wrongway 0]

Wrongway: It is your slow cpu that is giving you bad frames.

 

HERES MY SYSTEM SUMMARY from windows

 

OS Name Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Home Premium

Version 6.0.6002 Service Pack 2 Build 6002

Other OS Description Not Available

OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation

System Name A

System Manufacturer Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd.

System Model G31M-ES2L

System Type x64-based PC

Processor Intel® Core2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz, 3600 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)

BIOS Version/Date Award Software International, Inc. F10, 9/29/2009

SMBIOS Version 2.4

Windows Directory C:\Windows

System Directory C:\Windows\system32

Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1

Locale United States

Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "6.0.6002.18005"

User Name A\GVA

Time Zone US Mountain Standard Time

Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 4.00 GB

Total Physical Memory 3.25 GB

Available Physical Memory 2.63 GB

Total Virtual Memory 4.15 GB

Available Virtual Memory 3.50 GB

Page File Space 1.00 GB

Page File C:\pagefile.sys

 

I have found since using a normal boot from MSCONFIG

instead of a modified boot the numbers now seem right

but still IM not using the FULL ram I have installed

It seems only 3.25G is actually usable as RAM.

I will need a 16GB motherboard with 8GB installed

and the correct chipset so I understand.

WOx now work fine since I set the ram to DDR2-500

and the CAS to 5-7-7-23 with voltage boost of 0.2V

from 1.8 to 2.0.

 

It seems the lower the difference between RAM and CPU

Is the best way to go so like leave the CPU alone

and set the ram as fast as it will work with no errors.

But as you know overclocking anything will shorten the life

of the parts overclocked.

 

It would be so nice if they made a RAM run at

the L2 cache rate it would solve all problems with games.

 

Thanks for your responses.

[Wrongway 0]

THE PC CPU is NOT running faster than 2.4G

so this report is not totally honest.

The MPY is X6 and the clock is 400MHz

and the DDR is X2.5 or 1000MHz

 

Cheers

[MoonGoose 4]

my advice is to set RAM speed 1:1 with FSB (example CPU FSB 400 and ram clock 800 (400x2 as a DDR2).

 

i assure you.. im just playing with all unlimited details, DX10 shaders, modded game, 1680x1050 and no bottlenecks.

 

RAM speed is nearly irrilevant in games.

 

RAM speed is for slightly better compression applications (7-zip) and professional videoediting (adobe premiere)

 

numerous tests with DDR2-800 and DDR3-1333 showed FPS gains in order of 2 or 3 FPS.

 

i suggest you to clock RAM same as FSB and play with timings.

 

im at FSB400 RAM clock 400 (800 DDR) timings 4-4-4-12 and Vmem 2.1

[xclusiv8 35]

i have the same cpu but mine is overclocked to 3.2ghz.

 

how do you measure your cpu speed? the cpu will throttle down it self when it doesnt need all the power so that might be what you are seeing as 2ghz

[Fubar512 1,350]

Are you sure that your OS is installed in 64-bit mode? This line, "Total Physical Memory 3.25 GB", suggests otherwise. A 32-bit OS has that limitation. Also, the maximum physical memory that a 32-bit application (such as any TW game) will utilize, is 1024 mb, and that's irregardless of whether it's running on a 32-bit, or a 64-bit OS.

 

 

EDIT: I stand corrected, a 32-bit app can only utilize 2048 mb (2 gb) of physical memory under a 64-bit OS, not the 1024 mb / 1 gb that I had mentioned earlier. Perhaps this article may be of some assitance to you: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/vista-workshop,1775-7.html

Edited July 13, 2010 by Fubar512

[JediMaster 451]

A 32-bit app can use 2GB of RAM in 32-bit Windows as well. There is a way past that, I forget what it's called, some "large flag" that can increase that amount by a bit, but not to native 64-bit app numbers.

 

Anyway, it indeed sounds like you've got 32-bit Windows installed, not 64-bit. It's really easy to check. Go to the root of your C: drive. You should see Windows and Users folder. Do you see Program Files and Program Files (x86) folders, or Program Files only? If you have the latter, you have 32-bit Windows installed. The 2nd (x86) directory is indicative of a 64-bit install.

 

Just because you have an x64 capable CPU doesn't mean Windows is automatically in 64-bit. I bought a laptop with Vista on it with a 2.4GHz C2D CPU and 4GB RAM. They didn't even offer the choice for a 64-bit install back 2 years ago when I bought it, I've got 32-bit Vista on it and I only see ~3.5GB.

 

 

[MoonGoose 4]

A 32-bit app can use 2GB of RAM in 32-bit Windows as well. There is a way past that, I forget what it's called, some "large flag" that can increase that amount by a bit, but not to native 64-bit app numbers.

 

the flag you say was a setting in WinXP in the boot.ini as a boot parameter /3GB to allocate max 3GB to a single process and 1GB max to the kernel.

[MoonGoose 4]

another thing is that the PAGEFILE recommended setting is 1.5x the RAM amount... so if 4096Mb RAM, pagefile should be 4096+2048=6144Mb

[Wrongway 0]

This is all quite interesting.

My motherboard does not allow 1:1 with the DDR and FSB.

My only choices are as follows: x2,x2.5,x3

and AUTO which chooses one of those or so it seems to me.

I have this belief that the bios lacks the resolution necessary

to properly set the timing and control of the motherboard.

I believe a stand alone program using double precision floating point

is neccssary to properly calculate other compatable numbers

with one that actually works.

I set to whatever then I got choices of

x6 to x9 for the CPU and x2.x2.5,x3 for the DDR2.

My front side bus is listed up to 1066 which is the same as my RAM

DDR8600 or is it DDR8500 ( cant remember )

Also, I know for a fact that when you use high

harmonic numbers you also increase the drift in frequncies

at the higher harmonic numbers.

A small jitter in fundamental frequency is amplified by the harmonic number

of interest, Like X10 at harmonic#10.

The relationship between the various clocks are absolutely critical

to the proper timing and control.

You need either by experimentaion on the part of the manufacturer

or some kind of high resolution program to proper set these numbers.

If they are marginal then even a radio transmission outside

your house might screw up the timing and corrupt data

traveling through your machine.

I have seen data travel on a bus and one bit will lag or lead

all the others by a few nano seconds, this will cause

the bit in question to be late or early at the buffer when

it comes to latch time.

If the temp changes or whatever, it is unpredictable whether or not

that bit gets properly latched. This is a quality control

issue for motherboard makers.

It is imperative, in a computing device, to have

the timing and control be proper before the device leaces the

factory. That all parallel bits arrive at the same time to their

whatever destination.

 

Not sure a device built in china has the same quality

control , as like , germany.

 

But where would you find a german built computer ???

 

Germans are nuts when it comes to precision and accuracy.

or so it seems to me.

They would be the right people to build computers.

 

Thanks for your inputs, they are interesting to read.

 

Also, If i post my IP address, would anyone be interested in trying

a WOx server run ?

 

In like Co-Op mode ?

 

Ill be your sacrificial wing man.

 

: - / : - \ :-O :-|

 

Dont you think they need a greater varity of voices in the game

so you can tell simply by listening which plane is talking ?

I hear only the voice of a cowboy saying you got a whatever on your six

and none are on MY six.

 

In WOx , I never am sure, who is talking to whom.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JediMaster 451]

I'm referring to an app-specifc flag that's set in a 32-bit executable that lets it use more than 2GB of RAM. I think it was called LBA, Large Block Aware?

[Wrongway 0]

I'm referring to an app-specifc flag that's set in a 32-bit executable that lets it use more than 2GB of RAM. I think it was called LBA, Large Block Aware?

 

************************************

 

Yes I have both folders and can only use 64 bit drivers for sound and video stuff.

 

The limit is shown when I run Memtest86+ it shows that i have the first 3GIG of ram

then a skip area then like the remaining 1GB.

 

Harware is breaking the ram into two non uniform pieces.

 

This break point seems related to which bios i install.

 

If I flash with F8 or before the division is 0 to 3G then skip 1G then rest is 4G to 5G.

 

If I flash with F9 or latest F10 the memory divides 0 to 3.25G then rest at 4G to 4.75G

 

F8 or before and windows says all 4G in msconfig boot area will allow all 4G

 

F9+ I will only see about 3.25G max like the other 0.75G is missing or dedicated

to other usage.

 

I think this MB has been designed for XP and not really Vista or above.

 

I need to research this MB thing a bit further to understand the ram useage.

 

*******************************

to get off the trak,

Im watching this mel gibson stuff and its totally silly.

If you understand the guy comes from Austrailia

AND you know what they are like there.

Then,

Anyone thinking Mel is mentally ill just dont like Auzzies

like nazie dont like jus.

Auzzies are normally abrasive people or so it seems to milder cultures.

They are not mentally ill they are just behaviorally offensive.

i have seen the same in US navy people who have been stationed over there for awhile.

They arrive home acting just like mel.

Just imagine "Waltzing Matilda" and you know Auzzies.

"Waltzing Matilda" is the idea of defiance of authority.

*****************************

[JediMaster 451]

Gigabyte's site claims that board is only good for 4GB plus you have an integrated video chip, the GMA 3100. That will steal RAM for itself unless you disable it. Make sure it's set to Enable if no Ext PEG, with Init Display First at PEG. Other than that, I'm not sure which BIOS version would be best for you as I don't have that board.

 

It also seems there are different revisions of the motherboard, but they all claim Vista support. They're still for sale new so I doubt they're obsolete.

 

 

[Wrongway 0]

Yes, I understand what you are saying.

 

As for the obsolete thing, I am going by my Navy

training which says whenever, whatever comes out

to the market it is already obsolete.

New stuff is already on the drawing boards

and like the Military looks 20 years or more

into the future.

 

Or so i understand.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

Regards,

Wrongway, or BF2142:AllaAkBar,Yellow_Stone

 

Whats the highest score one can get in WOx ? I have not been able to do better than 4000 or so yet ? ( for single mission )