Does anybody know when was AA-11 actually introduced?

[SFP1Ace]

As above, the information I was able to pull out from net (wikipedia, google, you know, usual stuff since I'm lacking any good hard cover sources) was inconsistent and scarce. Some say early '80s other late '80s etc. Cutting to the chase it's just something I need to mod NF4+ '86 campaign. I'm just trying to find out if in 1986 MiG 29s 23s and Su 27s were already carrying AA-11 instead of AA-8? Thanks in advance for all the solid intel anyone can provide!

[Gr.Viper]

A Russian book on AA missiles says R-73 entered service June 1984 but no info on deployment.

[SFP1Ace]

A Russian book on AA missiles says R-73 entered service June 1984 but no info on deployment.

 

Thanks, every piece of info is invaluable to me :]

[Guest rscsjsuso5]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-11.htm

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-8.htm

[Fubar512]

In his book "Fulcrum" Alexander Zuyev does refer to a loadout consisting of 2x R60M, 2x R-73, and 2x R-27 as being typical for a MiG-29 during the year that he defected with one (1989).

Edited July 31, 2010 by Fubar512

[SFP1Ace]

http://www.fas.org/m...e/row/aa-11.htm

 

http://www.fas.org/m...le/row/aa-8.htm

 

Thanks, but I read it before. It confirms the 1984 date but it's too vague. Other source mentioned 1987, and that early MIGs 29 were equipped with aa-8 and only later on with AA-11. So when was this later on? 1985,1986 or, say, 1989? Or maybe Soviets started equipping Su-27 from 1984 and MIG 29s and 23s from 1988 or later?Maybe someone's got a book or a monography on the topic? It's just this kind of knowledge that I seek, cheers.

[SFP1Ace]

In his book "Fulcrum" Alexander Zuyev does refer to a loadout consisting of 2x R60M, 2x R-73, and 2x R-27 as being typical for a MiG-29 during the year that he defected with one (1989).

 

Thanks Fubar, we're slowly getting there, but still the crucial year is 1986 (cough, NF4+, cough ).

[Gr.Viper]

Make R-73 a part of the standard loadout but supply only a few campaign squadrons with it. Mark their location on the map and feel uneasy flying into their territory.

[SFP1Ace]

Make R-73 a part of the standard loadout but supply only a few campaign squadrons with it. Mark their location on the map and feel uneasy flying into their territory.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well, to create a year specific versions say MIG-29_86, SU-27_86, MIG-23MLD_86. The case of MIG-23MLD is easier - in '86 campaign there 3 sqs so I could equip just one (from what I found on the net in the '80s only some regiments of mig-23mld where carrying aa-11 so that would make sense). But there's only 1 sq of 29s and 27s each. I would have to create additional squadrons just to carry alternative loadout and combined with AA-11 it would bump the difficulty way too much I think. Plus I don't wanna stray too much from the vision creators of the original '86 campaign intented, just wan't to enhance it slightly :). And I'm also aiming for realism too so if I get the proof that in '86 AA-11 was NOT part of a standard loadout then it will have to go. Thanks for the ideas though

[Gr.Viper]

Is it possible to limit supply to all squadrons so that they get a huge stock of older missiles but only occasional shipments of R-73? This way they'd use older missiles most of the time but sometimes surprise you.

[SFP1Ace]

Do you mean adding something like this in campaign.ini for squadrons in question:

 

Supply[001].WeaponType=R-73

Supply[001].Quantity=6

 

But weren't specific supply parameters removed in SF2 series? Does it even work?

 

UPDATE: from SF2 knowledge base

 

It seems Weapons loadouts for player squadrons are NO longer required in SF2 – that’s these bits:

 

Supply[001].WeaponType=Shafrir1

Supply[001].Quantity=60

Supply[002].WeaponType=Matra530

Etc………

Edited August 1, 2010 by SFP1Ace

[SFP1Ace]

from http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/MiG-29-4.htm

 

R-73 (AA-11) "ARCHER" Missile Family:

R-73M1 off-boresight version utilized with helmet mounted sight

R-73M2 training missile shape with seeker head

R-73E APU-73-1D pylon

R-73U

purpose: highly maneuverable dogfight missile

design bureau: Vympel

development: early 1980's

first airborne tests: 1989

first delivered IOC: 1992

 

See? Even more confusing....

[Gr.Viper]

When you find so many discrepanices, it's not the question of how it really was, but whether or not you want it in the game.

 

are NO longer required in SF2

No longer required or no longer used even if present?

[SFP1Ace]

No tak, that's very true. I want it in game only if it complies with historical reality :) There are so many things IN SF2 we can't control and make realistic (avionics, mission planning, refueling, you name it...) but at least we can control (to a degree, depending whether the object's been modelled at all) is order of battle, right? So I'm aiming to create a little bit more realistic setting within the game's engine limits...I guess I'm a detail freak ( to a degree ;) - I would have to remove Su-27 sq as I'm pretty sure that in 1986 they weren't deployed anywhere near East Germany, rather than to Kola Peninsula). anyway I just order another book on soviet and russian a-a & a-g missiles, somehow I trust printed sources more than websites (irrational?).

 

The second question - I really have no idea, I would probably have to try it and see, but I really don't feel like doing it :D

Edited August 1, 2010 by SFP1Ace

[+Dave]

Ace

 

We can get down to the details but I can bet, if you have the 1986 scenario, any SU-27 units would of been moved for a situation like this. A large scale war changes everything. Units are brought up to frontline service out of their normal element all the time. Weapons in testing get used all the time It's the nature of war. It's unpredictable. So a person can be an all hard core detail freak and say "no this isn't happening" or have fun. We researched and drew many conclusions on what could happen and what unit would be where and what unit might be moved. So I'm not sure what your goal is here. The point of NF4+ was so no one has to do anything with it. Just download, drag, drop, fly.

[SFP1Ace]

The thought of Su-27 squadrons being deployed to EGermany in the event of war has actually crossed my mind, but only after posting my previous message. . Anyways I just mentioned Su-27 in the context of being umm, "a detail freak to a degree" and even then, like you said, it would up for a debate. I surely don't intend to remove Su-27 as it would just remove too much fun, and fun is important, right? Right know I'm just like a puppy running around, trying to take a bite at everything SF2 engine has to offer as far as customization goes. After a while my head will cool off and I'll probably settle with stock settings + great 3rd party mods (NF4+ baby!) + maybe some minor little little tweakos of my own (YAY)! Until then please bare with me. Thanks to everybody for participating in this discussion! Let your fighters never brake down, let your missiles alway hit their targets, let your girlfriends.... oh I'd better shut up :wink2:.

[+Monty CZ]

did you know this site?

http://warfare.ru/?catid=262&linkid=1673

Monty CZ

[SFP1Ace]

Thanks Monty, great find, I didn't know this one. To make things even more complicated the book on russian a2a & a2g missiles I received yesterday mentions 1985, Jane's webstite 1987, LOL. I guess it's really up to how much i wanna it in game. I think I'll follow Fubar's info and create a loadout of 2x R60M, 2x R-73, and 2x R-27. Or I'll toss a coin ;). Thanks to everybody for chiming in with you knowledge/opinions.

Edited August 5, 2010 by SFP1Ace

[Wraith27]

Hello!

 

Maby I add one interesting information to this discussion that I found in polish forum:

 

It said that some early version of MiG-29 can't use R-73 and R-60 missile in the same time. The only correct loadouts are: 2xR27+4xR-73 or 2xR27+4xR60. It is a problem with SUW-29 system ( weapon control system (?)) wich can't distinguish two types of IR missiles. Later SUW-29S system can do this.

 

Full version in Polish http://81.210.9.116/~apacz/smf/index.php?topic=9959.0

[SFP1Ace]

Dzięki Ciacho! Now this is getting curiouser and curiouser . Can we contribute it to Soviet intelligence effort in spreading misinformation, among western countries, about it's armament?

Edited August 5, 2010 by SFP1Ace