cry babies?

[Scout_51 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/n...a_reservists_dc

 

Worth reading,it HAD to be a numbnuts from california...the rules and regulations ARe known,period..

[Dagger 21]

what a wuss....if you only want to serve in peace time fine,join the peace corps..if you're in the military then this is something that could happen and you know it.sounds like a bad case of running home to mommy cowarditis.

[zagnut 0]

It's like when you sign the dotted line- THEY OWN YOU NOW!!! lol Yeah, it is a back-door draft, but that's always a possibility. They sign, they have to fight when called..... so simple.

[+Fates 63]

I'm gonna get slammed for this...but...hears my opinion:

 

WTH is a revservist? Wouldn't the dictionary define it as something or someone in reserve?

 

Is our military spread so thin that we don't have full active duty personel to fill the slot? Is it because enlistment is down? What is really needed?

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops...deployments.htm

 

There's 116,000 deployed troops in Europe...doing what? My personal opinion is tell them all to give their landlords 1 weeks notice and move the ENTIRE US MILITARY TO IRAQ... Do it once...do it right. Irraticate everything and plant new palm trees.

 

I think this guy has somewhat of a legitamate complaint. He's a reservist....not full active duty...and if the US can replace him with a full active duty soldier...they should have an obligation to do so, especially "When his enlistment ends".

[Scout_51 0]

Is our military spread so thin that we don't have full active duty personel to fill the slot?

yes guy our military IS stretched that bad..after ww2 the national policy was to have enought troops to fight two full wars and a holding one..the policy was to be able to field FULL divisions,something like 18 infantry/Airborne and bout 4 Armored ones..somewhere along the line the ball was dropped,after all the bear had stood down(for a while I sense) and the guys in n.korea where too busy keeping their people occupied,china was discovering the joys of capitalism and we all knew the ayatollah in iran was a dirty old man who was no consequence(except for that little embassy hostage thinggy)..so the military was cut down to bone in some areas,deeper in others..

[Scout_51 0]

It's like when you sign the dotted line- THEY OWN YOU NOW!!! lol Yeah, it is a back-door draft, but that's always a possibility. They sign, they have to fight when called..... so simple.

in a lot of ways it is a draft yep,maybe give impetus to bring the real one back huh?.they know they signing for the us military,thewir id card dont say boy scouts of america or 'only good in peacetime'

[Scout_51 0]

if you're in the military then this is something that could happen and you know

as I said only in california lol,wonder if the guy will pull the ole im gay routine,therefore you have to discharge me....

[navychief 1]

Sorry, I don't have any sympathy for someone who joins the Reserves, and then complains when they are called upon to fullfill their obligation.

 

You know, like when someone in the Reserves admits that they joined for the education benefits, and never thought they would actually have to fight a war. Give me a break. Read the f$%#@ing contract, buttbreath.

 

Navy Chief

[+Fates 63]

The suit against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other military officials names the plaintiff only as John Doe. It says he served with distinction in the Marine Corps and Army for nine years on active duty and three years as a reservist.

 

Looks like he served plenty of time to me NC...not some guy that got in to get some college money.

 

All I'm saying is this:

 

If the US can replace him with a full active duty soldier, or another reservist...they should have an obligation to do so, especially "When his enlistment ends".

 

<C>

Fates

[navychief 1]

Gotta agree with you in that case, Fates. Perhaps the services are just spread too thin. After all, we seem to be the armed forces "of choice" for the entire world.

 

NC

[Scout_51 0]

If the US can replace him with a full active duty soldier, or another reservist...they should have an obligation to do so, especially "When his enlistment ends".

the problem is there are NO full time ad that are available,the ng and reserves were set up for just this purpose,second he just might have a critical mos,third and uppermost he SIGNED the papers,a contract,in other words his word,now he saying his word aint worth nothing? he happily took the money to be in the reserve,he ought as happily do what he is Ordered to..this country IS going to crap with all these f***ing lawsuits!..he joined he signed now DO it.as I said only in ca,bet the flipping 9th court gives him a pass...

[Scout_51 0]

Gotta agree with you in that case, Fates.  Perhaps the services are just spread too thin. After all, we seem to be the armed forces "of choice" for the entire world.

 

NC

yep,we BEEN that...I see clearly the days of crossdecking coming back...like doing a cruise on kitty hawk,come back and month latter go on the Ranger boat

[Foofighter 0]

It looks like we have 380,000 troops deployed overseas. Some in "questionable areas" like Europe, and other in legitimate deployments that are being undermanned like Iraq. Bush's plan to move 70,000 from Europe to Iraq sounds like a smart move to me for obvious reasons. Remember, during the first Gulf War we had 250,000 personnel "over there". It was a "done deal". Outside of a few friendly fire incidents we kicked their asses. But we didn't finish off the problem. Eliminating Saddam's Government the first time. So here we are.

 

During the first Gulf War we had adequate forces to do the job and the Pentagon had Vietnam fresh in their minds enough to keep the politicians from micro-managing it. No McNamara or Rumsfeld middlemen to stop the objectives from being achieved in a reasonable manner. Our only mistake was not going for the 2-point conversion and getting Saddam the first time. Had we done that all of this current BS would be pointless anyway and none of this would be an issue. And a lot of casualties/lives would have been saved.

 

My point in all of this is that if we managed our volunteer forces in a flux like we did during the mid and late 20th century (after and excluding WWI) we wouldn't be in this position and have a need to extend enlistments involuntarily. And this lawsuit wouldn't be spending taxpayer's money.

 

Also,

The arguments of this thread wouldn't even exist. But here we are .

 

Foofighter

[navychief 1]

I personally believe the Draft needs to be reinstated; but am sure the opposition would be fierce.

 

Whatever the case, our armed forces cannot continue to be spread out as they are, and still be able to maintain adequate defense of our country in the event of attack from a major power. At least from what I can see, we are darn near sitting ducks, aren't we?

 

I'd appreciate someone with more knowledge in this area, posting about it.

 

Thanks,

 

Navy Chief

[CowboyTodd41 134]

I'd rather not have the draft reinstated, I'd be first up for the lottery, since I turn 20 next year, although while I oppose I would definently go if I was called.

[Scout_51 0]

we are darn near sitting ducks, aren't we?

as long as things are looked at as 'law enforcement matters' yep we are,as long as folks keep talking bout the rights of those caught IN THE FIELD with weapons aimed at our guys yep..we need to beef up our armed forces and need it done yesterday

[Creepy847 0]

Well from my exp within the combat arms community we all said the same thing about the draft. We prefer to have volunteers around us. Vietnam vets had to deal with new personal that had bad feelings about the war an it showed in theyre performance. On the other hand alot of drafted man did very well an thats been shown in all history.

 

In WW2 it was different cause the world considered Nazi's an Imperlist Japenese evil. Still Im sure you had men who would have prefered to stay home than to be drafted. Im sure folks still minded the draft but they new the stakes of loosing an Im sure disipline was handle much harder than it is now.

 

Now with the glabal situation we have alot to loose with our allies along with 3rd world countries that dont have the resources to protect themselves from these threats. I think a big issue is that some people dont know just how bad these monsters really are an what extremes they will go to for theyre cause. As bad as 911 was it will be small in comparison if these monsters get the right funding an backing an access to WMD's.

 

Everyone knows its just a matter of time before they do but what some people dont want to think about is the devastion these weapons can inflict on us. To prevent this we will have to be forever on our guard an act first than choose to wait an be hit. Pearl Harbor was a small price to pay for an event that was going to happen anyways. It led to millions of deaths an the destruction of major cities thruout the world.

 

Our situation has gravely changed an the stakes are on a scale that cannot be measured. Our military an country has been paying the burden of this war on terror. We tend to spend the most money an most resources protecting ourselves an allies from madmen. I have 2 daughters I would prefer that they could live a life without war but these wars an tryrants are not results of a poor US policy only. They hate us for nothing more than being American an our way of life.

 

These evil assholes are cowards who shield themselves behind other cowards an have common men, women and childeren carry out theyre eveil tasks because theyre either beat down brainwashed or are so use to following that they have lost the ability to think an reason an choose right over wrong. They have access to millions an some cases billions of dollars. Its time for all good people to stop fooling ourselves. We can only push one man so far. We need more troops more resources more money an more incentives for our warriors. These men are fighting an dieing for theyre country but theyre wives an childeren may not feel like that.

 

Im not one to favor a mandatory draft but when I talk to buddies that have just returned I can tell theyre tired. Men are like the equipment they use. Its constantly stressed to maintain your gear so its combat ready. If our troops our pushed beyond theyre mental an physical limits it may be time to think about a draft. We need boots on the ground. It wont be quick but it wont be forever. Our troops need time to come home an live normal for abit before returning to combat duty.

 

Having them come home for 6 months or a year an having to go back is a slap in the face as far as Im concerned. If theres not enough troops to let the combat units rest for a min 1 year then I say we find a way to do it. I made 3 deployments back to back an it wore me out. Iraq is a different monster. These NG units arent use to that an alot of them have no bussiness in Iraq as quickly as they are deployed then thats another issue in itself.

 

I dont know what some people need to see or hear to understand that these monsters are not going to quit. Forever till this day out we are gonna be at war with these monsters till theyre either all dead or so afraid of what will come theyre way if they carry out such acts. We need to bring the war to them. In theyre face night an day. Dont wait around an see what they do. You bring it to them when theyre off balance. Dont let them surprise you surprise them. They want to use violence well theres one thing for sure the US breeds violence we need the right men an women in the right units that only live for the thrill of the chase an kill. Theyre out there an theyre willing to do the work. We also need other troops to fill in the blanks.

 

If anyone thinks that 911 was some kind of fluke then your only kidding yourself. Id like to see you get 10 of your best friends an talk them into doing what those monsters did to us. You wont find a friend evil enough to do it. If you can understand that then you can start to understand the hatred these folks have for our goverment, policies an probably Americans in general. Some might want to say hey theyre only mad at Bush or our polices or presence somewhere but I can assure you this if theyre not dealt with either by force or policy change then they will become stronger an much more dangerous an we can look forwards to decades of war.

 

I would hope that we dont have to change policies because of monsters like Sadam an Binladen. We cant fight major wars all over the globe with limited resources, but we can fight one war smart enough to ensure our warriors they have all the resources an equipment to win. It might take time even years but our troops on the front line need to know that there are others that will fill theyre shoes an that our goverment is not gonna be forced to keep tired troops on the front line. These men need a mental rest an a chance to see hear an touch loved ones. Even more our wounded need to be taken care of physically an mentally. These men are forever changed its the duty of this goverment to take care of them whether its in the field or home.

 

If it takes a draft to do it then Im in agreement with it. Sooner or later we all have to pay our dues. If theres not enough troops for the job then its our President an Goverments duty to get them an ensure the safety of this country. It wont be popular Im sure but if anyone hasnt noticed Im seeing alot of 18 thru 25 year olds coming home with limbs missing an if thats not enough Im seeing folks come from Iraq an turn around an start getting ready to go back.

 

If your 18 thru 30 unmarried, dont you think you could put your personal life on hold for a year or 2. Im too old to go back now but if I was 18 I dont care what school I was accepted to Id be doing my part. And that doesnt mean being in uniform either.

 

In the end you have to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself "AM I DOING ALL I CAN DO TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF MY COUNTRY AN OUR WAY OF LIFE."

 

After 911 everyone was screaming why wasnt something done to prevent this. Well like it or not the President is doing that right now. We learned a hard lesson lets not forget it. If you had someone killed that day then you probably understand more than someone that didnt. For people that havent been directly effected because of the 911 events an war then you should realize it doesnt mean your future is safe.

 

These are my own feelings on this an I dont need to hear insults from the farside. I respect everyones own opinon on the subject.

 

 

R/S

Creepy847

Semper Fi

 

Fly MARAIR

Edited August 19, 2004 by Creepy847

[Scout_51 0]

If our troops our pushed beyond theyre mental an physical limits it may be time to think about a draft

yes it just might be..but this time we need a REAL working draft,no more deferments period..one goes they all go so to speak...no college deferments,no well I have a kid deferment thing,no deferment period NO ONE...we keep the national guard and reserve on active duty for NO more than 2 yrs then they go home and rotate another unit in..of course with a draft it would take a good year to stand up units,but that way the reserves SEE light at the end of the tunnel,and I do agree with you,we need bring Terror to THEM,have THEM looking over THEIR flipping shoulder.need them to wonder where we going go into next,and no I don't think to protect our Country we need the damm un's permission

[Beer 0]

The military reguardless of Branch is a Profession.

 

Pay them like professionals, and you will not need a Draft.

 

Cheers

Beer

[zagnut 0]

Beer-

 

That's the problem, we're not paid like professionals. There are some perks, don't get me wrong, but it amounts to a sales tax break at the PX, a few discounts here and there, and a couple extra hundred dollars per month for cost of living. I've been back on active duty now since May, and wow, nothing changes. Still long hours and hard work. Belive me, I know it pays off in some ways, but I can see why most people don't choose the service as a career or for just a couple of years. I do agree though, that some form of the draft should be put into place, and somehow alleviate those who are so worn out, that they are going to crack.

[Foofighter 0]

NC,

Whatever the case, our armed forces cannot continue to be spread out as they are, and still be able to maintain adequate defense of our country in the event of attack from a major power. At least from what I can see, we are darn near sitting ducks, aren't we?

 

I agree, in my last post on this thread I mentioned this. I thought we did a pretty good job of keeping manpower needs per conflict in the 1900's. This time around I think we didn't and I think Rumsfeld is mostly to blame. When they were planning this the top brass wanted more troops but Rumsfeld was against it and there was a lot of infighting at the Pentagon. Rumsfeld won and look at where we are now. Then on top of all of this (in response to Zagnut's post) they wanted to cut the soldier's pay!

 

How do you think this affects enlistment, Re-enlistment and morale of the current serving personnel?

 

I just don't think that this policy helps the enlistment process and I think this is why we are seriously undermanned.

 

In terms of fear, I live 6 blocks from the White House, 1401 N St. NW 20005, so don't think that I underestimate the threat. I am concerned about it.

 

For the record,

I know that a lot of you guys think I'm "unAmerican", "unpatriotic" or any of those other labels that get thrown around when someone questions the current events and decisions made by the administration. Based on my previous posts.

 

But I'm not,

I just think that if the decisions that have been made (now and 1991) were given more forethought it could have been handled differently and with much better results and far less casualties. Also, with less security concerns and no 500 billion dollar annual deficits.

 

Since we decided to do this, we need more troops and we need to support them better. But people aren't lining up to enlist like they did in WW2 because this time the cause was questionable, they see that they may not be supported adequately, and the pay and benefits aren't worth the risks.

 

We are stretched too thin, but for all the wrong reasons.

 

Foofighter

[+Fates 63]

IMHO, Well said.

 

<C>

Fates

[firehawkordy 34]

Okay, I've been offline for the past few days. I read this the other day and saw about eight shades of red. As most know I served in the Navy for twenty years, on both sides of the fence-active and reserve. During my time in the reserve side, depending on the unit, we were either weekend warriors or on a heavy deployment schedule.

Just prior to my retirement, the ID cards for Reservists were changed from red to green. This was so we wern't treated as second class citizens. We were given unlimited access to the Base's facilities.

With this came the understanding, we were now equals to the Active Duty side and were expected to carry our share of the load. I saw people pull the "I went into the reserve to keep from fighting" routine during Desert Storm. It was not an acceptable excuse then, it is not one now.

My last unit has been rotaing to the big "I" since the beginning. There are only two HCS Squadrons in the Navy, both are in the Reserve side of the house. My shipmates are there now.They are worn out, they are tired. If I could go in one of their places I would, my shipmates need the rest. They let us know how things are going, they understand that theycant just say "I did my deployment , now I'm going home." I dont think it would cross their mind.

I know you are all saying whats the point? My point is, the one NatGaurd that is suing is an exception, he is breaking his Oath and his word. I am ashamed that he is from California. His actions are unexcuseable. I say let him out of his enlistment, I'm sure that he can get out via an Article 13, maybe lets see, with a charge of Derilection of duty, with Failure to obey a Lawful Order thrown in? Let him out, just make sure his dicharge reflects the type of lowlife he is.

I will admit, our troops are spread thin. We need to give them the equipment to work and survive in a combat zone. We need to increase the billets for all branches, the so-called "Peace Divedend" is an abject failure. Untill Congress realises that and gives our troops the funds and resources they need, we will see more of these "civil suits" in the news. And unfortunately, there will be a Shyster lawyer that will take the case instead of laughing the snot out of his office.

[Foofighter 0]

Firehawkordy,

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just looking at the forest rather than the individual tree! I just think that the whole situation is much more important than the individual case, and as a result where will it lead us in the future? Where has it taken us up to this point? At what cost? And where will we be long term as a nation?

 

We bankrupted the Soviet Union and thats how we beat them. On credit. What goes around comes around and at 500 billion annual deficits over the last 3 years under the current administration we're going down financially. We simply can't afford it. We spend more money on the interest (not the principle) of what we owe than we do on national defense. Do the math! If you do not understand this talk to a financial advisor to explain it to you.

 

At some point we are going to have to "pay the Piper". Just like the Soviet Union had to but they couldn't. Our tax dollars are currently paying to dismantle the USSR's Nuclear capability because they can't afford to do it on their own for the same reasons that I mentioned in the previous paragraph! If they ignored this and we ignored this it would be an environmental disaster.

 

Foofighter

[firehawkordy 34]

Foo,

I understand that the amount of money owed on intrest is more than the princable. The gov't must learn to live within it's means. We cut spending on defense, and wasted the savings on social programs that don't work. I am tired of seeing costs cut at the expense of the troops to give that money to an ilegal alien or a fifth generation welfare recipient who is to stupid and lazy to get a job.

We have wasted more money on social reform and welfare than we have on defense.

 

My problem is with the wimp who is suing to get out of his contract, not with how much is spent on the war. Like I said, give the discharge he deserves and make sure he is cut off from any beniffiets. My understanding is that he spent 9 years on active duty. If that is the case, he knew what was involved.

 

Every few years we had to endure a "Rights and Reponsibilies" lecture. One of the things mentioned is this, the military can bring a service member back to active duty up to eight years after his separation from active duty. Even retirement is no shield. Upon my retirement I was transfered to the Fleet Reserve. That means that if my specialty is in critical need I can be called back to active duty up to the age of 60. Dont belive me? ask the guys that had to come back to man the Battleships.

One of my friends father was called back to the New Jersy after being out for ten years.

 

Once you sign the contract, you have made a pact with the devil. The military has you for the next 40 years. You may never get yanked back but the possibillity is there.