Thoughts on Gaming

[CaptSopwith 26]

Okay guys, bear with me. I'm finishing PhD applications and writing my final papers over the next 12-24 hours and Lord knows I need a break! So I thought I'd write up some thoughts on something fun as a respite from the labors of an academic.

 

During the 15-20 minute breaks I've taken in the last few days while working, I've been playing a lot of Call of Duty 4 on my PC. I've played all of the COD games and I'll likely wind up with Black Ops for Christmas - as I asked for it a few months back (I should have asked for TrackIR lol). And I've noticed a perceptible difference in how I feel after playing a CoD game versus flying a mission in OFF. Now, take the following with a grain of salt - your mileage may vary - these are just my own odd opinions.

 

First, both are immensely fun - no doubt. But a game of CoD (which on the PC features up to 50 people all blasting away on a single map) is a frantic, run and shoot affair. There are always targets in front of you. You sit, clicking away on your mouse, sending rounds downrange while taking fire from all directions. Push too far up the map and your opponents start spawning behind you (we call it a spawn flip). Take cover for too long and you're labeled a "camper" (can you imagine what they'd think of Trench Warfare!? ). Do too well and you must be hacking. Etc. I end a game of CoD feeling hopped up - like a junkie getting a fix, wanting another kill, but never feeling really satisfied.

 

Fire up a mission in OFF, on the other hand, and it's a completely different experience. By COD comparisons its a much slower game. You fly, you look around, you wait. On any given mission you might have one or two dogfights - but usually you'll see dots in the distance and never encounter much trouble (at least when you fly in 1915 as I am). And I feel so much better after a mission in OFF. Is it tense and exciting? Absolutely! But it is so much enjoyable than a quick, manic game of shooting up in CoD. I feel satisfied with the time (and I'm very aware of my time these days lol) I invested in my choice of game. OFF feels great to play, immensely satisfying to fly, and after I'm finished, I feel refreshed and inspired to get back to work.

 

I played one more game of CoD today - and wound up being banned from a server. Why? Because I took cover for too long and hopped to get out of a window. Silly me! It was at that moment when I came to my senses, thought "What the hell am I doing here?" and went back to my OFF career. I flew another Fokker EIII mission, saw no trouble over the lines, and landed safely without ever firing a shot. And I felt great!

 

I guess my rambling point is this. While the gaming community at large seems to view us as a group of fringe oddballs who worry about details that your average CoD player could care less about - I'd much rather be a "fringe oddball" of a "niche" community, than continuing to battle among the masses who think war games should be fought by running into the streets, shooting as many people as they can before they are mowed down, and then repeating. While CoD had its hooks in me for the last three years - I just don't get it anymore. It reeks of the mindless lather, rinse, repeat gaming that seems to be flooding the market these days.

 

It's time to suit up again - put back on the goggles, dust off my old pilots and give OFF the attention it deserves. Thank God my old Sidewinder 2 joystick (which I've had since 2000) still works!

 

Cheers!

Edited December 9, 2010 by _CaptSopwith

[Slartibartfast 153]

Sometimes just being able to play a game with a chance of being shot at is a whole lot more interesting and fun than something like COD or MW2 etc... OFF is a good brain workout not a point and shoot which I think appeals to us in a different way also sometimes just the challenge of keeping a plane flying without being shot at etc for example FSX yes I own a copy with Air Hauler great addon as well just delivering cargo from airport a to airport b is a fine example of feeling as though you have done something without the fire and splatterness of the afformentioned shooters though at present I am blasting through Fallout New Vegas!!! But had a fly in Air Hauler earlier a Cessna flight of 150 miles and it left me feeling the same as you more relaxed... So I see it this way keep the Ennie flying and bring back your pilots and may your flights be peaceful mixed with complete madness...

[Olham 164]

I will repeat it again: the difference to other games is - "Over Flanders Fields" is NOT a game.

It is so much more, and above all other things, it is a deep bow of respect for all the young fellers who flew these crates in real life.

Cause, if you jump into it with that "winning the war single-handedly" mentality - it will teach you just that: respect.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Olham

[carrick58 23]

I am in agreement with Herr Olham. OFF is a different Fish.

[Mr_Dirt 1]

It is a different fish and let us be glad the Dev team isn't caught up in designing a sim for microsoft, because the masses would want a flying first person shooter! not the fine sim we all love. I am happy being a "fringe oddball."

[Hellshade 110]

For what it's worth, my opinion is the difference between OFF and games like CoD or even Wings of Prey is the emotional investment. In CoD and Wings of Prey you are given a mission to complete and your goal is to complete the mission. No matter how good the story and graphics might be, you don't get to make any choices outside of the mission they've given you. Enemies will appear at certain points and your job is to figure out how to kill them. Everytime you die, *poof* you start over again with the same exact scenerio until you unlock the strategy that gets you past it. No personal growth of your on-screen avatar and no real penalty. You don't die in Call of Duty. You Reload your last saved game. Basically, you've got nothing to lose.

 

In Over Flanders Fields, you create your pilot in your imagination first, give him a name, choose the county he flies for, choose fighters or bombers, choose the squadron he flies in and even what time frame in the war he will start his career. Before you ever get your first mission in OFF, you are more emotionally invested in your on-screen avatar than most other games ever let you become. In Call of Duty and Wings of Prey, they tell you who you are and what you are doing. You get to figure out how. In OFF, you choose everything except the mission...and then you can make a choice to disregard that if you wish and head off the flight plan to wherever you think you'll be needed most.

 

If you make a kill, you don't even get automatic credit for it in OFF like you do in WoP and CoD. You have to prove you got it to the powers that be. And kills are hard in OFF. Because they are hard, when you make one, you feel like you've accomplished something. In CoD, if you havent made 20 kills in 30 seconds you are considered a terrible player. The easier something is to have, the less emotionally valuable it is to you. The harder you have to work for something, the more it means to you when you finally get it. So CoD gets your blood pumping and you all hyped up about making kills before being killed...but it isn't emotionally satisfying no matter how many you get because most of them come so easily and so often. In OFF, your blood starts pumpng when you see the dots in the sky and you realize that your squadron and theirs are probably going to end up in a dogfight that could cost you your characters life. You don't get to reload the last mission if you die. You're dead and have to create a new pilot. Everything you've worked for with that pilot is on the line every moment that you are in the air. So with OFF kills being harder to get and with dying having a real penalty that makes you feel like you've got something to lose, OFF is always going to offer a deeper, more emotionally fulfilling experience.

 

That's not to say that WoP and CoD Black OPs arent fun. I own them both and they both are a trip to play. But eventually the same missions are going to get stale. With OFF, I can always start a new pilot in a new type of plane in a different time period of the war and get all new challenges to face. To sum it up, I'll say what I've said before:

 

In CoD you are simply trying to complete a mission.

In OFF you are trying to fight and survive a war.

 

The emotional difference is considerable.

 

Hellshade

[CaptSopwith 26]

I completely agree with what everyone has said here. As usual, Hellshade, you completely hit the nail on the head. This passage particularly hit home:

If you make a kill, you don't even get automatic credit for it in OFF like you do in WoP and CoD. You have to prove you got it to the powers that be. And kills are hard in OFF. Because they are hard, when you make one, you feel like you've accomplished something. In CoD, if you havent made 20 kills in 30 seconds you are considered a terrible player. The easier something is to have, the less emotionally valuable it is to you. The harder you have to work for something, the more it means to you when you finally get it. So CoD gets your blood pumping and you all hyped up about making kills before being killed...but it isn't emotionally satisfying no matter how many you get because most of them come so easily and so often. In OFF, your blood starts pumpng when you see the dots in the sky and you realize that your squadron and theirs are probably going to end up in a dogfight that could cost you your characters life. You don't get to reload the last mission if you die. You're dead and have to create a new pilot. Everything you've worked for with that pilot is on the line every moment that you are in the air. So with OFF kills being harder to get and with dying having a real penalty that makes you feel like you've got something to lose, OFF is always going to offer a deeper, more emotionally fulfilling experience.

 

I think that is a brilliant summary to why sims like OFF keep us coming back for more, years after they're released. Heck, why else would RB have lived on so long? As Otto pointed out in another thread, it was hardly a perfect product when it was released and it needed years of patches to bring it up to our standards. But it had the same core elements that OFF holds today - the creation of your own pilot, the choice of flying missions in a way you think will work best, and the ultimate investment - death = death. There is no respawn point, only the black and white animation of your pilot being buried. It hits home in a deeply emotional way.

 

And while the technology has moved forward since those days - OFF models airplanes with details that the modders during RB3D's glory days could only dream of - that core dynamic (pun intended lol) is what makes sims like these magical experiences.

[themightysrc 5]

I've said it once before and I'll bore you all with it again: it's the theatre of the mind.

 

Now I've not played COD, but I've done my fair share of RPGing in the past, and what I've identified - for me at least - is this. An FPS game, as advertised by the industry, is invariably rather like the rather macabre zombie shoot-em-up arcade games so beloved of games arcades in British seaside towns: lots of sturm und drang; highly pumped up; absolutely in-yer-face; points based; stage based; level based; reaction heavy. And yet - with all that sensory up front input, there's little more than a pile of points at the end of it.

 

There's no 'me'; there's no 'my experience' - and this is where the differentiation to good ol' RPG comes in. Rather like OFF - or RB3D, or even, perhaps RoF (although I doubt it) - your D&D, Traveller and similar games invested a huge amount in both staying alive and in your putting yourself in that position. You actually live(d) a full time life, which, I suspect, is why British tabloids went overboard in the 80s trying to persuade us that D&D et al were stealing our kids' lives away. In a way, they were correct: to do it well, you did have to get involved at a deep level: the theatre of the mind.

 

So what does this have to do with OFF? Simple. Many of us can relate back to the RPG scene and just think that way. COD etc are all very well, but when faced between that and actually living out a novel or a play in 360 degree full techicolour glory as a pilot in WWI, which do you think has greater purchase? There's no question in my mind.

 

Cheers,

Si

[77Scout 3]

The state of gaming is, in my mind, a pretty sad affair. We really haven't advanced much in 20 years other than better graphics. Its mostly scripted storey-lines and linear game play, with little replay value. Thanks God we have a few enlightened companies making games like our beloved OFF, that are open ended, unscripted, and never the same way twice no matter how many times you play.

 

Capt. Sopwith, if you get tired of the 'run and gun' arcade stuff, you might look into ARMA2 for a more realistic infantry combat experience...it is more of an infantry simulator that a game.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I'm an avid gamer myself..I play anything from First Person Shooters, to Military Strategy Games, to Flightsims...I've even been known to play Farming Simulator!

 

I'm too old and slow to play MP shooters these days, I was never very good anyway, and found myself getting increasingly annoyed at getting killed every 10 seconds.

 

As I 'mature disgracefully' I find myself even moving away from 'killing'

 

I play FSX more and more these days, especially as I hope to work Airside @ NCL next season.

I have killed so many sprites in my 20 yrs of gaming, that it's starting to get a little tiresome tbh.

 

The thrill of OFF and FSX...and the fact that you don't play a game...it's totally open ended appeals to my gaming habits these days.

 

I'm tired of all the Modern Shooters....long since bored of the CoD and MOH games...I tried to get back into it with Black ops...but found myself bored stiff in the first chapter...same old same old.

 

A huge amount of pleasure for me these days comes from Skinning...which I do a lot of in OFF...and increasingly in FSX....I guess at 49...I'm kind of mellowing somewhat...and get pleasure out of watching my son run over perfectly innocent people in Mafia and GTA...

[Javito1986 14]

Funny you should mention D&D games because I'm playing through Baldur's Gate right now (first ever playthrough, though I've played similar games before). I tend to agree with the consensus. When I play OFF I play it like you would a RPG, I live the life of my little RFC pilot just as much as I do when I travel the Forgotten Realms.

 

CoD and Halo are a completely different kind of gaming. They're much more visceral, the gratification is immediate. They require a different frame of mind! Some years ago when Halo 3 was released I spent a few weeks playing its multiplayer with my friends. We were doing that demolition game where you have to run the bomb into the opponent's base and detonate it. It struck me that really it's no different than playing a sport. I felt that sense of competition, had fun ordering my teammates around, and it was quite satisfying to "score a goal" at the end of it. I get the same feeling from CoD multiplayer, particularly stuff like Domination/Sabotage/Headquarters. StarCraft 2 is likewise practically a sport, but a 1v1 kinda deal. They're all great in their own right and lots of fun.

 

That said, they don't at all light up my imagination like OFF does. The battle of Arras is ongoing in my RFC game, and when I fly over the front, see the gas clouds, the big arty bombardments, the sky filled with flak, I'm always inspired to hit up the bookstore and buy a book about it all.

[themightysrc 5]

"When I play OFF I play it like you would a RPG, I live the life of my little RFC pilot just as much as I do when I travel the Forgotten Realms."

 

Thanks Jav - it's nice to know that it's not just me that sees the difference and what it implies. Clearly WM has got something like it too, and Olham's been there forever. It's immersion. You either believe and care about your life in OFF or else it becomes CoD. I don't care how others treat it, but I do understand some of the psychological imperatives behind how we think - I hope! - and I find it a fascinating, if rather too late :^( adjunct to a subject that I was involved with 30 years back.

 

30 years back. s**t. That's just made me sit up and think.

 

Cheers,

Si

[OvS 8]

Coming from a user that's been around games since my old Sears Super Video arcade (Sears Intellivision version) back in 1979, so what's that... 30+ years now.... all I can say is you are comparing apples to oranges. FPS games are scripted, and follow a path. They are all the same, regardless of the time-period for which they represent. Even Far Cry2, which is about as open-ended as a FPS can get... it became very mundane... kill this guy, buy this weapon, kill that guy, drive here, kill the other guy... blow that up... etc. Whereas Sims are a totally different ball game (pardon the pun there). All FPS games are winnable with a simple formula... find the sniper rife, kill as many as possible at long range, then storm the rest with maximum fire-power.

 

I first flew a simulator in 1982, with Sublogic's Flight Simulator II on my C64. I still have the original maps and books for it. It was everything I needed then to learn how to fly... and that's the difference, you actually LEARN something in a sim, because it simulated the real thing. What do I learn in a FPS? How to beat it? Use GOD mode? How to find cover and toss a grenade? Flight Sim II progressed me into aviation, and onwards. I doubt I could ever say that about COD4... it doesn't even help when I am getting my ass shot off while playing Airsoft with my friends.

 

BUT.... each has it's level of fun and enjoyment. I mean, how many times can you take your 152 out of Gabreski, up over Long Island and shoot the NDB approach for runway 36 into KFRG? Wish I has some mavericks under my wings so I can light up the CT when he tells me to go around for the missed approach. ;)

 

All the best,

 

OvS

Edited December 11, 2010 by OvS

[CaptSopwith 26]

You gents are reminding me why I love reading this forum. I'm really enjoying hearing your thoughts on this topic - as well as getting a glimpse as to what you play when you aren't patrolling the front.

 

Overall, the impression I get is that OFF is more satisfying because there is a psychological and emotional investment in the game. And I have to agree. Back in my younger days - playing Red Baron II while I was still in high school and had no idea just how much damn free time I had back then! - I would use a separate program to keep a running journal of all of my pilots' experiences. Unfortunately, the program I used was CM11 which was tied right to RB, so the moment my pilot died, he vanished from CM11, right along with his journal! What I would give to have written all of that down in Word - I'd have a novel by now! Anyway, there was definitely an emotional tie to my virtual pilot. Ten plus years on and I can still recall certain missions like they happened yesterday. One involved me flying with Lanoe Hawker in No24 squadron in February 1916. We wound up in a horrible furball and once I ran out of ammunition - found myself faced with the need to retreat from behind enemy lines for the first time. I played RB's system for all it was worth - ground hopping and using the giant river basins that cut through the trenches to avoid ground fire. OFF would never let me get away with that but back in 1999, you could!

 

And that's the interesting thing. I can remember certain moments in games like Call of Duty, or Fallout, that stick out. But ten years later, I still remember that mission.

 

And here's an interesting point that I'm sure Olham will enjoy - I flew that mission in real time. And darn if I don't recall it as if I actually did it! Every mission I time compressed my way through is a blur, but the real time, real world, real danger missions that I managed to escape from are the ones I recall.

 

I'll be curious to see what Black Ops is like - if I wind up getting it. My old college friends and I tend to bond together over games of Call of Duty. I've never been able to convince them to give flight simming a try. The few that have crashed instantaneously and refuse to even attempt to fight me - even though I assure them that only 1 pilot has ever survived the war in the ten plus years I've been fighting the Great War! They don't seem too convinced! But I bet any of the veterans on here could hand me my butt any day of the week.

[JFM 18]

To me, they're all games. People just have different opinions as regards what game/sim is more "real" than another and then defend/justify their preferences.

 

For instance, I think hitting an "E" or "I" key simulates nothing regarding starting an engine--I've flown a lot of airplanes and none of them had an E or I button in the cockpit--but others justify this lack of reality because it saves them time or relieves what they consider to be a tedious task. Except real flying is comprised of tedious tasks, but to simulate this reality would be too much reality for many, even though a combat sortie was mostly flying and very little combat. So in order to make a game more fun people can dial back these preferences (mixture, auto-rudder, vulnerability, unlimited ammo, etc) to tailor the game/sim to their perception of what constitutes real/simulated.

 

Do you know what octane fuel your plane uses? Oil weight? Have you done a weight and balance? What's the reference datum? Do you let the engine warm up? Do you do an engine runup? What's the air pressure/air temperature/dew point/density altitude? What's the freezing level? What's the wind speed and direction? What do you do if you pick up rime ice? (Oh, wait a minute, there is no icing.) What are the magnetic compass errors and why aren't there any in the game/sim? What's the magnetic variation where you are flying? Real pilots are familiar with these things and IMO they should be simulated but that would bore many, so for entertainment value they are ignored, scaled back and/or made selectable so you can bypass the too-real part of the sim and get to the fun/game part, shooting at stuff. I agree some games/sims get to the shooting part a whole lot easier/faster than others, but ultimately that's the entertainment people seek in all combat sims; the money shot, so to speak. Nothing wrong with that; it's fun!

 

But does that make a game or a flight simulator, i.e. "a training device or apparatus that simulates certain conditions of actual flight or of flight operations"? I believe many or all of us focus on the caveat "certain conditions" and how that is defined, which leads us back to my post's first paragraph.

[Mr_Dirt 1]

OVS you are an airsofter. My son has my field all mowed up in strips with bunches of pallets for hiding behind. He and his friends have a great time playing at least once a month. They asked me to play, but I did not like the bruises ans whelps I saw on them. I told them I would play if I could use my 270 cal. They did not like that idea I just could not understand why LOL.

[Olham 164]

OvS: I mean, how many times can you take your 152 out of Gabreski, up over Long Island and shoot the NDB approach for runway 36 into KFRG?

Wish I has some mavericks under my wings so I can light up the CT when he tells me to go around for the missed approach. ;)

 

Bordeauxred Baron: "Vee don't know yet vott ziss means, butt our intelligenz iss workink on der code - we ssink zee Americans are plannink somessink!"

[Ras 0]

Ive been gone most of the last couple of months and been heavily involved in single player of the DCS /A-10. Yeah, Ii know. Its a jet and I should have my fingers slapped. But that sim is so realistic it is unbelivable. And would dearly love to get involved in multiplayer. But from what I have heard regarding that sim; ROF; and the first person shooters, is that you have a bunch of "kids" out there unless you can find a group that is of your similar tastes, which is often a mature person. And I don't think too many are mature until they have some real life experiences and tragedies. I've heard of the Boys of 60 and etc and always meant to give it a try. I tried MP before the HITR came out and could never connect at all. ANyhow hope all is well. I did do some OFF flying the other day just to keep from getting too rusty. Best to all of you

Edited December 12, 2010 by Ras

[OvS 8]

OVS you are an airsofter. My son has my field all mowed up in strips with bunches of pallets for hiding behind. He and his friends have a great time playing at least once a month. They asked me to play, but I did not like the bruises ans whelps I saw on them. I told them I would play if I could use my 270 cal. They did not like that idea I just could not understand why LOL.

 

 

Dirt,

 

Yes, you're crazy not playing!! It is A LOT of fun. Not sure why they have welts on them, are you sure they're not paintballing? Airsoft, if you wear any clothes other than a t-shirt, dosen't hurt unless you get hit on exposed skin. I have a standard Classic Army AR-15. It's very close to the exact weight of the real thing, and no doubt not a cheap Toys R Us rip-off. With Airsoft, it is dirt cheap once the initial investment in the gun, battery and charger is made. Other than that, I pay about $20 for 4000 BB's. The BB's are larger and less destructive than metal BB's, as you probably know already. You can't shoot out any car windows with them.

 

So pick up your rifle and get in the game soldier... go have fun with the boys. Airsoft is a game where guys our age can be kids again... except there is no 'I got you' called out from your cheating friend that barely sees the nape of your ass behind a tree. If you get a cheater on the field, believe me, he knows he's a cheat real fast.

 

Also... the guns are freakin' awesome!! I fired a SAW in the local Airsoft shop near my house (he had an indoor test range set up)... Holy Christ, it felt real, and blew rounds off at about 700-800 RPM. I looked at my nephew who was standing next to me and said... 'Kid, if I buy this... pray you're on my team'.

 

Unfortunately, It was out of budget... :(

 

All the best,

 

OvS

[Mr_Dirt 1]

OVS they get some whelps we they fire at each other to close plus many times it is hot and their arms are bare. No it is airsoft their playing. They have some very realistic guns. One has an Ak that is really convincing. Another has a Thompson. My son has a sniper rifle and a Gilly suit, his joy is getting a knife kill. The main reason I do not play is a heart problem so running up and down the field becomes a problem, I might try the sniper rifle and Gilly suit this spring. My son has several guns as do most his friends they invite everyone they can and provide guns and BB'S. Like you said so much better than paintballing and if someone cheats everyone knows it and he becomes a marked man. They all have automatic weapons and even a grenade launcher they did not like and sold. I like what they do it is a lot better than some trouble they could get into. They all thank me for use of a 6 acre field every time they come. The field has grown up in cedars and tall weeds so they have a blast. I know they would enjoy inviting you and yours to play to bad it is so far. How is the Nova coming along?

Take Care and Happy Holidays John

[OvS 8]

Ah, yes... close range, can't do it. It does hurt. I got shot in the face during one game inadvertantly as I was lying down behind a tree. It was a luck shot. Hurt like hell for a little while as he was within 20 feet. Most players simply shout 'safe-kill' and it's done. You go and respawn at the check-point... but there are the few that have to make their point... then I make mine as well next round. Hurts when the gun goes off at your a$$... accidentally of course.. ;)

 

Sorry about the heart... yeah, maybe build a redoubt and hang-out there. Or you can play the POW, and let them free you against the enemy... etc. It's anyone's game as long as everyone has fun. Sniper in the Gilly's suit sound real good too. That's always fun. I hear guys even use claymore mines as well. I've seen the grenade launchers, they look cool, but not sure how well they work. By the sounds of what you son feels, not too good... but it looks intimidating. ;)

 

The Nova... going slow, but good. In fact, I was working on it (FINALLY!!!) yesterday. My wife and kid were out for the day, so I slipped into the garage for a little 'me' time. It's totally stripped down now, I took out the cargo glass yesterday, and the drip-rail chrome. I'm going to start stripping the paint maybe this week if it's not too cold. Then she's finally off to the body guy. The doors, and tailgate are all done, and sprayed in the Butternut yellow I wanted. they look awesome so far. I can't wait to get the body to him. Not much to do. It's all original steel and needs very little work, but what it does need it needs badly.

 

Thanks for asking!

 

All the best,

 

OvS

[Bullethead 12]

Yes, you're crazy not playing!! It is A LOT of fun. Not sure why they have welts on them, are you sure they're not paintballing? Airsoft, if you wear any clothes other than a t-shirt, dosen't hurt unless you get hit on exposed skin. I have a standard Classic Army AR-15. It's very close to the exact weight of the real thing, and no doubt not a cheap Toys R Us rip-off. With Airsoft, it is dirt cheap once the initial investment in the gun, battery and charger is made. Other than that, I pay about $20 for 4000 BB's. The BB's are larger and less destructive than metal BB's, as you probably know already. You can't shoot out any car windows with them.

 

When I was a kid, we used regular BB guns, Airsoft and paintball not yet having been invented . Paintball didn't come out until I was in the Marines, when we were all over it.

 

Regardless of the weapons, however, imposing rules that stop a player from continuing on despite being hit has never worked, at least in my experience. Nobody wants to miss out on the fun, so it's always come down to having to inflict enough pain to make the other guy need to catch his breath for a few minutes. Either shoot him hundreds of times or beat him up in hand-to-hand combat, which happened a lot because guys would charge through a hail of fire to tackle you. It's a macho thing, after all . At the end of the day, we'd all be as beaten up as if we'd been playing tackle football. But it's all good, clean fun , especially if there's beer afterwards.

 

Also, there's the fact that the popularity these days of such games has introduced a wider, more sheltered audience to the useful concepts of infantry tactics and the futility of trying to impose "laws of war" on something as brutal as combat.

[Mr_Dirt 1]

Glad to hear about the Nova, but I bet it will be cold only a high in the teens here in Mo today with high winds sure is nasty outside. I bet Lou and the fellows up north are really getting it I saw where the Metrodome roof collapsed last night. I could be president in a game they play, you have to escort the president from one end of the field to the other without him being shot. I would rather do the sniping I think never liked politics. You are right BH about how you cannot get someone to play dead when the fun is on, but most honor the rules and respawn. Like you also said if they do not you sure get shot up at full automatic. Ovs they have talked about the claymore I would not be surprised to see one this year maybe. I tell them BH not to forget the men and women who have served their countries so they may play soldier. I was born on Dec 7 and when people wish me happy birthday I tell them to think of the men who died that day instead. It is my small way of getting people to think about the cost of Freedom.

Thanks John