tractor vs pusher heat

[thewoo1 0]

guys I read where hawker was an innovator for fleeced lined boots for his dh2 pilots... so I wondered did motors on WW! planes produce heat that would penetrateb the flimsy separation between pilot and motor... all pics i see guys are bundled up.... would a tractor be warmer than a pusher... inline vs rotary?

[Olham 164]

From all pictures of pilots about to make a sortie, I gained the impression, that it was always rather cold up there.

Theoretically, the tractor should give some warmth in front of you. But they didn't seem to have any systems to

channel the warm air down to the bottom of the cockpit.

If it could have been done at all, then only from an inline engine. Too difficult to catch and use the warm air coming

off from a rotary, I suppose. And even then: you would have had to make sure to gain and use ONLY warm air,

without any petrol or oil fumes, which would have effected the pilot.

 

So, boots were by far the simplest solution.

What I am wondering about is: I think I have read somewhere about electric heating in dresses (and boot?).

Does anyone know about that? A dynamo could easily be driven by a running engine.

[Lewie 7]

guys I read where hawker was an innovator for fleeced lined boots for his dh2 pilots... so I wondered did motors on WW! planes produce heat that would penetrateb the flimsy separation between pilot and motor... all pics i see guys are bundled up.... would a tractor be warmer than a pusher... inline vs rotary?

 

I've ridden enough motorcycles in cold weather to make a guess that the tractor airplanes would probably have not radiated enough heat to made much difference, especially the rotaries, which required that their heat and exhaust be channeled away from the aircraft. With the rotary, in addition to the unmuffled exhaust poured out a fine vapor of unburnt Castor oil.

 

Also most WWI aircraft with water cooled engines seemed to have mounted their radiators well outside the cockpit. Open cockpits with a fair amount of opening between the coaming and the pilot, no matter how bulky the flying Sidcot, there would be a substantial loss of warm air even if present.

 

A.V. Roe was on to something with the 1912 Type "F" monoplane..

 

[Lewie 7]

 

 

So, boots were by far the simplest solution.

What I am wondering about is: I think I have read somewhere about electric heating in dresses (and boot?).

Does anyone know about that? A dynamo could easily be driven by a running engine.

 

Yes, in fact the RFC did start to include electrically heated suits and such for the FE2B crews during the Winter of '17 You can understand why. I also believe the Caproni CA33 bomber gunners wore heated suits, those little cages they stood in must have been miserable without heat. Didn't the high altitude Rumpler CVI with the Maybach 260 hp engine have oxygen tanks and heat for both pilot and gunner/observer?

[Hasse Wind 46]

Didn't the high altitude Rumpler CVI with the Maybach 260 hp engine have oxygen tanks and heat for both pilot and gunner/observer?

 

Yes, it did. And I imagine they also equipped other similar planes with them later in the war. Quite a few of the German two-seaters were able to fly at really high altitudes, so their crews would have appreciated it.

[Dej 17]

So, boots were by far the simplest solution.

What I am wondering about is: I think I have read somewhere about electric heating in dresses (and boot?).

Does anyone know about that? A dynamo could easily be driven by a running engine.

 

Both sides had developed electrical heating for flying gear by 1917, powered by small strut-mounted propeller-driven genreators. The British had also developed the Sidcot suit, a one-piece fur- or fleece-lined outfit that did a far better job of keeping the wearer warm than previous attempts. So effective was it in fact that a German pilot who brought down a British pilot alive would be quick to claim his Sidcot suit, von Schliech and Rudolf Stark each had one from such a victory

[Lewie 7]

besides in a tail wind would the pusher be any warmer ?

 

With an unmentionable wind-chill, how much could engine heat affect the pilot ?

 

I feel that Hawker just happened to be flying a DH2 at the time

 

In a tail wind there wouldn't be any air being blown backwards, as the airmass the plane is flying through is relative to the actual speed of the aircraft. That's why the Germans had a natural occuring advantage with the prevailing Westerly airflow over France. It tended to make the trip back West for the slower Obs flights take longer.

[Olham 164]

I found something about the Rumpler C.VII in Wikipedia - unfortunately only so detailed in the German version -

the English one is much shorter - see here:

http://de.wikipedia....ki/Rumpler_C.VI

 

"Der noch erfolgreichere C.VII kam 1917 mit Tastfunkgerät ausgestattet oder in der Variante Rumpler C.VII

als hervorragender Fotoaufklärer mit Reihenbildkamera zum Einsatz, wobei sogar zur Gewichtsverringerung

auf das Piloten-MG verzichtet wurde, dafür aber der Besatzung durch Sauerstoffgeräte und elektrisch beheizbare

Fliegermonturen das Arbeiten in über 7.000 m Höhe ermöglichte. C.IV und C.VII waren in großer Höhe noch

so schnell, dass sie sich einem Angriff von alliierten Jägern leicht entziehen konnten – ein großer Vorteil, da die

Fotoaufklärung zum Teil weit jenseits der Frontlinien über gegnerischem Gebiet durchgeführt werden musste.

Beide Typen blieben bis Kriegsende im Einsatz."

 

"The even more successfull C.VII came to service fitted with a morse device, or in the variant Rumpler C.VII

as an outstanding photo reconnaisance plane with a sequential camera; where the pilot-MG was abandoned

for the benefits of giving the crew an oxygen apparatus and electrically heated flying suits, allowing them to work

at 7.000 Meter (23.000 ft). C.VI and C.VII were so fast at high altitude, that they could easily withdraw from any

attacks by Entente fighters - a big advantage, because a great deal of the photo reconnaisance had to be flown

far beyond the front lines over enemy terrain. Both types remained in service until the end of the war."

Edited January 24, 2011 by Olham

[Hasse Wind 46]

I'd LOVE to fly one of those Rumplers in P4. With proper improvements made to the recon mission types, of course.

[Bullethead 12]

I've ridden enough motorcycles in cold weather to make a guess that the tractor airplanes would probably have not radiated enough heat to made much difference

 

Amen to that. Plus, looking at photos of inline pilots like MvR suiting up and reading their memoirs about what they wore, you get the impressions that engine heat either hadn't been invented or wasn't sufficient. Otherwise there'd have been no heated suits.

 

BTW, pleased to make your acquaintance. You still owe me your new-guy drink though

 

I'd LOVE to fly one of those Rumplers in P4. With proper improvements made to the recon mission types, of course.

 

Hear hear! Another call for more 2-seaters in P4, Snipes be damned

 

BTW, at over 20,000 feet in Europe, the ambient temperature IIRC is sub-zero F, and then there's the wind chill. WW2 B17 crewmen, many of whom were effectively in open cockpits due to openings for guns, reported the cold as utterly brutal, even with their electric suits.

[Olham 164]

Yeah, Bullet is right there, Lewie - what a bout drinks? Welcome to OFF!

And if you send me a PM with your town and country, I'll add you to the OFF Forum Pilots maps.

 

And to make that clear - I have also voted for more two-seaters in P4.

I need some variation in my claim reports.

Mmuahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!

[carrick58 23]

:drinks:I remember reading that a Pilot mentioned that a pusher was colder. I will look for the Reference

[von Baur 54]

BTW, at over 20,000 feet in Europe, the ambient temperature IIRC is sub-zero F, and then there's the wind chill. WW2 B17 crewmen, many of whom were effectively in open cockpits due to openings for guns, reported the cold as utterly brutal, even with their electric suits.

 

Personal experience, skydiving in South Carolina summers. Hot as...well, a South Carolina summer...on the ground, but the thermometer on the Cessna 172's airvent almost always read in the low 40's to high 30's at altitude (typically only 7,500 feet). Extrapolate that any way you will, on whatever continent you like and whatever latitude you're operating at and it's damned cold upstairs. Logic dictates that a tractor would provide better protection from the wind than a pusher but not enough to make it comfortable or even bearable. As others have mentioned, with fuel and ammunition sitting practically in most pilots' laps (fuel particularly on the German machines), they probably didn't want to channel too much heat toward the cockpit. The real he-men IMO were the FE gunners, out in the front of that nacelle with no cover above the knees.

[Bullethead 12]

The real he-men IMO were the FE gunners, out in the front of that nacelle with no cover above the knees.

 

And without even a chair to sit in . Man, their legs must have gotten stiff, not to mention the wind blowing up between their legs.

[Creaghorn 10]

don't know about this subject, but mccudden wrote in his book that he didn't like pushers, because there is lacking the warmth, which is usually coming from the hot engine and the propeller in front. so some kind of warmth there must have been i think

[RAF_Louvert 101]

,

 

To a freezing man even a warm thought is welcomed.

 

.

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

don't know about this subject, but mccudden wrote in his book that he didn't like pushers, because there is lacking the warmth, which is usually coming from the hot engine and the propeller in front. so some kind of warmth there must have been i think

 

Creaghorn,

 

I have read somewhere, can't remember if it was in a book or on the 'net that James McCudden had cut an opening in the firewall of his SE5A and rigged a door that he could open and shut to provide some warmth.

 

If anyone can provide more info I would be greatly interested.

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

[Lewie 7]

Amen to that. Plus, looking at photos of inline pilots like MvR suiting up and reading their memoirs about what they wore, you get the impressions that engine heat either hadn't been invented or wasn't sufficient. Otherwise there'd have been no heated suits.

 

BTW, pleased to make your acquaintance. You still owe me your new-guy drink though

 

 

 

Hear hear! Another call for more 2-seaters in P4, Snipes be damned

 

 

Thanks for the welcome Bullethead Virtual beer round on me..

 

I have this love of oddball two seaters, I've got the rough 3D models of a Farman H20, a Farman H22 seaplane, Farman F40, and a SPAD 11.

 

One plane that I notice that gets considerable lack of attention in most WI sims is the AR1 and AR2 The Avions Reconnaissance or the ' Antique Rattletraps' as the US service crews flying under the French referred to them.

 

They were supposed to be a better replacement for the obsolescent Farman and Voison pushers, but because of Renault's quality and delivery problems with their newer water cooled "V" engines, they didn't get the newer 220 HP Renault but had to use the first version of the water cooled V-8 which was only 180 HP, and they weren't much a an improvement over the Farman F40 because of the engine ad airframe weight.

 

I'm going to make a virtual AR-1 here someday, it was fairly common in French bomber/obs squads during the later parts of 1917.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Rugbyfan1972 wrote:

I have read somewhere, can't remember if it was in a book or on the 'net that James McCudden had cut an opening in the firewall of his SE5A and rigged a door that he could open and shut to provide some warmth.

 

If anyone can provide more info I would be greatly interested.

 

Quite right Rugbyfan. It is mentioned in several sources, one being Christopher Cole's "McCudden VC". In this book he notes that James had a hole cut in the engine bulkhead and then fitted it with a shutter. This allowed him to open it so that heat from the engine could enter the cockpit. Not sure how effective it was, but it had to be better than nothing at all.

 

.

[Bullethead 12]

I'm going to make a virtual AR-1 here someday, it was fairly common in French bomber/obs squads during the later parts of 1917.

 

I hope this will be in P4 because we have no true French 2-seaters at all right now and, as you say, it was quite important. But if not, please make one for us. We always need more planes ;).

[Lewie 7]

I hope this will be in P4 because we have no true French 2-seaters at all right now and, as you say, it was quite important. But if not, please make one for us. We always need more planes ;).

 

I'll have to figure out what 3D format you guys normally use for CFS3-OFF. I can import to a lot of different formats but scaling is also important.