SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Slartibartfast 153]

Tried again against the Su-27 with an F-4G!!! No gun no winders just 2 Sparrows sat in the back now thats a tough fight... but to make people happy it seems as though the planform for the Flanker hides the chaff he pops out so always do a look up shoot and you should nail him most of the time... it works for me about 80% of the time... and thats with a 7F...

 

And your right anyway you look at the F-4 it just doesn't have the get up and go to go toe to toe with a Flanker...

Edited June 5, 2011 by Slartibartfast

[+EricJ 4,210]

Indeed mate... it's a good bomber or BVR killer but hey that's just how I feel...

 

Me: F/A-18A with 2 x AIM-9L and 2 x AIM-7 Sparrows, centerline fuel tank.

Opposition: 2 F-35A with 8 x AIM-9X and 4 x AIM-120

 

It seems that it's a scenario or glitch in the Matrix that this fight started off different than a previous fight. In any case one broke off and circled around me almost getting to my six so I pulled off and went for the mover. He comes around after a vertical energy circle and I manage to get out of it again by going vertical, checking on his lead, which is heading NW steadily, okay it's not going to be difficult. So I get back in the fight and eventually the first Lightning II starts again to pull an energy circle but he's moving slow enough to fire a missile and I give him a Lima and it tracks, shooting him down. Next... I tried to get a BVR kill against the remaining Lightning II but the current radar set isn't working... so I accelerate to get within range, which by this time was knife fight due to the stealth features of my target. The first Sparrow goes off and goes stoopid, missing him cleanly due to countermeasures and maneuvering. So after that it's more energy circles and blacking out most of the time due to my burners being on and he's just a tough bastich to begin with. I eventually get over top of him and try the coup de grace with a Lima and it totally misses, more to maneuvering than flares he drops while it plowed into the ground. At one point the Lightning II managed to get his nose on me and he tried to spike me with a 9X, missing due to luck rather than any warning (saw the smoke trail and then took the screenshot). After pulling out of another blackout I have my gun and Sparrow left. I locked him up for a Sparrow kill but he was moving to fast and in another circle for an effective shot, so I switched to guns, managing at one point to fire a burst but was too far left to hit him. Also while in a circle I was too close (min range for Sparrow) and decided to work him or get into a better position. After the Min warning he extended and turned generally east, with me leveling off and hoping my last Sparrow shot would work. It tracked and cleanly blew him up.

 

Takeaways is mainly dealing with a wily adversary and weapons management over aircraft handling. The reason I say this is because the Lightning II is evenly matched in maneuverability, but then again care should be taken for speed and burner use. After that weapons management is another concern. The Lightning II still had more advanced weaponry but my "old skool" stuff still worked.

[+EricJ 4,210]

Me: MiG-29A German with 4 x R-73 and 2 x R-27R, centerline tank

Opposition: Two Su-27s with 4 x R-73 and 4 x R-27R and guns

 

This went pretty fast so I only have two shots available. Started off with both breaking around. I tend to go after the wingman who started an energy fight. Versus the Flanker the Fulcrum has a better turn rate even with a full fuel load. I followed him, seeing a shot available and taking it. The Archer tracked but was defeated (imagine that) but a combination of maneuver and flares. The lead Flanker began coming around and started to get the chirp from it's radar, and at some point loosing off an Archer of it's own, and his went stoopid on me though I dropped flares as a countermeasure. In response I fired an Archer, this time smacking him in the face, destroying him. Between this point I did fire a second Archer but it also went stoopid with the remaining Flanker either leveling off and me taking the last shot with the last Archer with it tracking and killing the remaining Flanker.

 

Takeaways. Sometimes the dual Flankers either gang up or one goes north and one comes around. This time it was a gang fight and another way of describing battle management. I had the wingman defensive while the lead was offensive, taking it's shot when it could. Thankfully my shot worked better than his did or of course the fight would have been very different. Always move move move and think fast when dealing 1 v 2 with other aircraft.

[+EricJ 4,210]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X and 8 x AIM-120

Opposition: Two Mirage 2000-S5 with 2 x Matra 550 and 2 Super 530 (I assume)

 

Started the fight off closer to get both aircraft into the fight from the beginning (seems there is a "detection bubble" that I have to break to effect this) and go for the wingman while the lead is turning hard to get me. At this point it's a blur... sorta. I go for the maneuver plane while the lead is working his way around. The wingman is pointing SW while lead is the same. However lead gets his nose around and tries to spike me with a Matra 550, missing purely by maneuver than countermeasures though they (I think were deployed) in any case lead heads south and I wheel around, going for the wingman. I lock up the wingman who by now extends more and I give him a 9X to get him out of the fight. After the screenshot I concentrate on the lead, who is coming around. As I work with the lead the 9X did it's job and the wingman is down. After this... it's about the energy circle and how the M2000 can do it nearly forever. I managed to get into a position for a HOBS shot, but from the accompanying screenshot, it's not my day as it sails skyward, not earthward into the lead aircraft. I try quite a few HOBS shots with the AMRAAM and no joy, the M2000 is just too maneuverable. After a while the M2000 slows down somewhat, and I manage a near HOBS shot with my sixth AMRAAM, destroying him.

 

Takeaways. The M2000 is a beast and was described as such before. Two against one is again move move move and try your damndest to get him into a workable position for a good shot. Unfortunately the vertical escape from the circle isn't always the best when dealing with the Mirage and should be attempted but realize that the M2000 will work itself into a better position quicker, but be defensive too as he may get his nose around quicker. I tried to reverse into a low position but he's got a lot of energy, giving my plane a workout despite the advantages it has right now. Plus tactical patience as I expended six AMRAAMs, and two 9Xs for two kills. Not a good ratio with all things considered.

[Caesar 305]

Okay, we're doing a classic one this time (no video). After reading EricJ's F/A-18F vs. Mirage 2000C, I figured I'd give the Big Cat a shot at it. I've fought against the 2000 1v1 with success, so what's another one? In this case, I fought a 1v2 twice in an F-14A Tomcat (using SidDogg's awesome VF-51 skin). Both fights were complete inside of 2 mins.

 

Fight 1:

F-14A: 4x AIM-9M, 4x AIM-7F, 75% fuel, gun, no tanks

Mirage 2000C-S1: 2x Matra 550, 2x Super 530, 100% fuel, gun, no tanks

 

Fight started with an initial one-circle pull into the threat. Sustained turn of about 7g, Mirage lead begins pulling into me, wing man keeps going straight. I get on wingie's tail and fire a pair of Mikes at him, both hitting and killing. I now go searching for lead. Start getting intermittent RHAW gear warnings, but no lock. Spot him to my ten o'clock, and pull hard into him. He's not going for a sustained turn, for some reason and is doing a moderate pull/release/pull/release to ease his nose onto me. The Ironworks bird smoothly gets nose-on before the Mirage, Fox 2! AWG-9 gets boresight right after I fire Mike 3. Because the Mirage initially is coming nose-on, I pull away and deploy flares, then notice he starts pulling away from his attack to evade the heater. I begin to roll back into him to shoot again if necessary, but it is not. The heater hits him in the face.

 

 

Initial Pull

 

Fox 2!

 

Good Kill

 

Fox 2, roll away

 

Pull back, good kill

 

Fight 2:

F-14A: 4x AIM-9L, 4x AIM-7F, 75% fuel, gun, no tanks

Mirage 2000C-S1: 2x Matra 550, 2x Super 530, 100% fuel, gun, no tanks

 

Exact same as above, no joke. It simply takes 20 seconds less for me to acquire and shoot Mirage lead.

 

Tone, Fox 2 at Wingman

 

Splash 1

 

Splash 2

 

Good Kills, RTB

 

 

Takeaways:

Maybe I need to take on the S5, because the S1 didn't seem to be fighting as much as lazing on a Sunday afternoon. "Oh, there's a Tomcat in the air? Really? He's trying to kill us? We can't have that, can....oh dear, #2 just bought it. Well, that, good sir, shall not stand as gentlemanlyCONFOUND IT! Bastard has now shot at me! Certainly my flares can save...*STATIC*"

 

Antics aside, it seems to me anyhow that the AI doesn't handle the Mirage 2000C very well.

[+EricJ 4,210]

I tend to start about ehhh... probably a few miles behind them so they both decide to "act" and take me out. If you start further away the wingie will peel off while lead stays on track. Honestly I've never seen the 2000 fly in real life so to me it's a matter of conjecture if it handles as it should in real life.

[Caesar 305]

True! I'll have to try to screw with the ranges and try again. It's a bit strange to me that some aircraft press pretty hard in a 1v2(F-16, F-29, Su-27) but others don't (at least for me, F-14, F-15, Mirage 2000C and some others). From what I gather, the Mirage 2000 handles similarly to the F-16 IRL, but with worse sustained turn performance (bleeds speed like a delta, since it is a delta). Will do some changes to range later and see how that affects the fight.

 

EDIT: My typical start is neutral (i.e. we're both facing away from each other) about 2 miles apart. You use something similar?

Edited June 11, 2011 by Caesar

[+EricJ 4,210]

I think SF2 doesn't model the speed-bleed like you mentioned as it seems it can maintain it's energy quite well. Down the road it starts to slow down (hence the AMRAAM shot, or I just got lucky...) but that's after a few minutes. I'm usually behind the aircraft and let them come around and then get in the fight, so essentially I'm in a superior position (can get a good hind shot) but may try what you do to see how that works out.

 

But yeah some aircraft when they have a lot of energy are more aggressive. The F-15 used to be my favorite but now it's looking like the Flanker is a good "warm up" aircraft but sometimes it can be pretty passive, but I think where I start is looking good to get them both on me therefore making the bouts more exciting.

Edited June 11, 2011 by EricJ

[+EricJ 4,210]

Me: F/A-18F EPE with 2 x AIM-9X and 8 x AIM-120

Opposition: Two Mirage 2000-S5s with 2 x Matra 550 and 2 x Super 530

 

Decided for a redux as the previous bout... well wasn't too good. In any case like Ceasar I started "neutral" with each flights facing north and south respectively. Once I acquired my first target I came around and today... was interesting as I got the radar warning tones from the 2000C's radar. If my mind serves me right one of them went low and came up and tried to spike me with a Matra 550, missing by pure maneuver as opposed to countermeasures (deer in the headlights) coming up overshooting, while trying to turn into me. His buddy also came up low pointing towards me coming hard low while I turned back into my first target, which at that point was "hanging" so I fed him a 9X with it tracking him and shooting him down. Re-targeted the last one remaining which came up, in which I assumed he launched a missile but didn't as he came up from the ground, entering into an energy circle. Unlike last time I defeated it with a vertical push and rolled over, targeting him with my remaining 9X. He slowed up and I took the shot downing him.

 

Takeaways. This time it was more manageable and easier than last one. Don't know why but then again I learned from my past mistakes which enabled me to take care of both Mirages in 1 minute 59 seconds. The improvement over last one was more tactical patience (even though it went faster) which culminated in better 9X management, ensuring I had a better FOV in order for it to track.

[Caesar 305]

Okay, we're in 1v4 territory this time. A brand spankin' new F-14B from VF-74 Bedevilers is going to go at it with four MiG-23MLA Floggers over Israel.

 

Loadouts:

F-14B Tomcat: 4x AIM-9L, 4x AIM-7M, gun, 75% fuel, no tanks

MiG-23 MLA's: 4x AA-8, 2x AA-7, gun, 100% fuel, no tanks

 

Honestly, this one isn't very exciting for the simple fact that all the weapons worked perfectly (good news for me!) Looking over my shoulder, I see the formation to my 7 o'clock and immediately begin turning hard into them (7g or so). Three of the Floggers pull away, while the fourth begins to wind around to my tails.

 

 

As I continue through the turn, I select AIM-9 and get visual on one of the bandits. FOX 2! Wait a minute, that sucker's going for a different one...FOX 2 again! I boresight the third flogger and let a Sparrow loose on him - immediately goes stupid, so I send a second. At this point, I began cycling visual on the opposing fighters to try to find which one has headed for my six, and am pleasantly surprised as I cycle through, to find that two of the four have been hit and killed, the third hit and wounded. I send a heater his way to finish the job.

 

 

At this point, I start getting RHAW gear warnings - seems like MiG leader, who broke into me at the beginning, has just gotten himself into a firing position. I angle my Turkey Beast to put him on my 9 o'clock, only to find him closing to within visual range. If he can get an AA-8 off, I might be in a bit of trouble (all aspect). As I'm pulling into him, now to close inside of minimum range, he lets loose an AA-7, which does not track.

 

 

We pass, and I roll the F-14 to pull into a one-circle fight. I've got one heater, two sparrow and 676 rounds of 20mm left, so I'm feeling pretty good. Continue the turn and get on MiG leader's tail pretty quick. FOX 2; he deploys flares, but the missile isn't fooled. Shot down, game over.

 

 

Crews looking at the carnage

 

Takeaways: MiG leader's wingmen really could have pressed harder this match. As it stands, the Flogger's overall poor turn rate kept lead from capitalizing on his potential advantage while I was shooting down his wingmen. Also, like I said, all of my missiles worked right except for one, which just about nullified the number advantage within the first 30 to 45 seconds of the fight. It'd have been a LOT harder if I had been missing and wound up in a 1v3 with no heaters left. Not too shabby, baby!

[+EricJ 4,210]

Nice looking skin.... I have to eventually get into that when I get the chance.

[Caesar 305]

Thanks! It's still a WIP - finding the aircraft BuNo's right now and making some adjustments. Will upload sometime within...say...2 weeks? HARR!

[+EricJ 4,210]

http://www.markstyling.com/

 

Found this last night and detailing the stuff out of my Super Hornet PSDs but this may help...

[Caesar 305]

Thank you good sir, will check it out.

[+daddyairplanes 10,151]

either of you two ever find it amusing that the high practicioners of Naval ACM are Army and Air Force?

[+EricJ 4,210]

Now that you mention it... it is true Guess Navy jets are just cooler...

[Caesar 305]

Hrmmm...good point. Well, I did have a hankerin' for a Century-Series brawl (it will probably end in disaster for me) - will see what happens tonight!

[+EricJ 4,210]

I did a sorta early DACT with a Phantom and an F-100D. I started out behind it and managed to lock onto it. The main reason was for radar use because when I was on the Iraq-Iran terrain I literally flew under some F-4s and wanted to get a better feel for the radar itself. Anyways, considering my inexperience with ACM I managed to land a few shots with what I believe were -9Ds or Js. In any case what ended up happening was since I was in F-4E we flew around with me trying to gun him down but obviously back then they built them Ford tough so I ended up in a stalemate.

[Caesar 305]

Okay, gang, we're goin' back to the past! Specifically, July of 1964, where we find the duels of the F-101A against the F-100D (and vice-versa!)

 

This is more of a learning experience than an instruction, so bear with me; and anyone good with the century fighters, feel free to chime in. One thing's for damn sure, after getting into a furball with these planes, it really makes you appreciate the leap forward in technology with later aircraft. True stick and rudder planes, where limits must be honored and understood. Fights #1 and 2 were me in the F-101A, while #3 and 4 were me in the F-100D. General takeaways are that the F-101A, for being equipped with 4 guns, is not a good fighter for close range, thanks to that T-tail configuration and deep stall/departure characteristics, but man, can it GO! The F-100D feels heavily underpowered, but at least is manageable at slow speeds. All fights were done on HARD FM.

 

Fight #1 & 2:

F-101A: 4x 20mm cannon, 100% internal fuel

F-100D: 4x 20mm cannon, 4x AIM-9B, 100% internal fuel

 

Fight started with a one-circle fight, with me having the disadvantage early on (the F-100D pulling inside of my circle). The key factor for this was something I remembered about the One-Oh-Wonder: 1G per 100KIAS; so at 400KIAS, don't press beyond 4G; at 600KIAS, don't press beyond 6G. At 1.2M, the plane handled 10G well (not intended, but the plane peaked a few times at those numbers). Anyhow, after we pass, I begin to roll into the vertical (or list lazily to the vertical, as the Voodoo has a pretty poor roll rate). This starts a series of loops. The loops go from about 12k to about 26k, back to about 12k feet. After about three loops, the Super Saber is out of energy...now's my chance! I'm still high above him, low on energy, so I begin to pull into the bandit at about 3.5g. Unfortunately, I can see him regaining energy, and he's pulling away. I figure I'm building smack pretty good, I should be able to press harder. Well at about 380KIAS, 5g, the Voodoo departs. The aircraft is flopping around in the wind, then enters a spin. Oh damn, we've got a problem.

 

 

Loopin'

 

Departure

 

The Super Saber sees this and calmly comes around horizontally as I spin through his altitude, continuing to descend. He rolls in to finish me off while I'm still trying to recover the damn Wonder. Unfortunately for him, the flat spin makes him have to dive and somewhat corkscrew as my plane is a bit unpredictable. He fires a burst which catches the tail end of the Voodoo. Plugging in the blower, he's trying to maintain his solution diving. He fires again, missing, and again, missing, and I suddenly realize something: we're gonna collide! The flailing Voodoo is still non-responsive and the Saber driver is so focused on killing me that he has taken a course that will put his plane through mine. His attack lops off both his starboard wing and my vertical stabilizer, as well as my port wing. Then, something happens that I never expect...he plows into the ground and Red Crown clears me with a "Mission Complete." Wow; won with half of an airplane, still spiraling out of control.

 

 

 

Fight #2 started similarly, but after my initial vertical loop press, I realized the Super Saber wasn't running outta' energy fast enough. I changed tactics to start an energy circle. Not good, with the limits of the Voodoo, I can't press much beyond 8g effectively at high speeds. At speeds below .92M, I'm limited to between 4 and 6g. I start looping again, and this finally does bring his energy down. Again, I try for a press, this time being sure not to let the "g" or alpha build too much. This meant I couldn't get a solution, and the -100 got away. The fight went on like this for no-kidding 10 minutes and included at least one more departure, but which I recovered from, until, thanks to the Voodoo's huge internal fuel supply, I ran the -100 outta gas. He began to run, no blower, away from me. Now I can get him. Get on his tail, but have too much closure. And he's still survival-oriented, because as I get into gun parameters, he pulls hard into me. I overshoot, and begin a high yo-yo to get back on the Saber's tail. It works, and I set up again. Same deal, but I've cut throttles and worked into a good firing solution. The Saber again breaks into me hard, and I basically say "screw it!" - I got lead and pull back on the trigger to those four big 20mm's. The Super Saber's turn put it right in the path of the bullets and his plane is torn apart in front of the Voodoo.

 

 

 

Good Kill

 

Okay, time to try the Super Saber.

 

One-circle and me and the Voodoo are jockying for position as we pass twice in an extended horizontal scissors. The Saber's superior turn performance start to show through at about the third iteration, which I also gave some vertical to. I end up on the Voodoo's tail and get tone from the AIM-9B. FOX 2! The first one guides, but runs outta smack before it hits the One-Oh-Wonder. I try to close, but the Saber does NOT have the thrust of the Voodoo. The -101 is trying to run, so I send another -9B his way, which strikes him and takes off his rudder. Good! A stick and rudder plane without a rudder ought to be easy to kill! Would that that were the case. The Voodoo driver is smart - full blower and run like a bitch. I will admit, I've used that one before, but in a 1v1? Boooo! He's predictable, but I can't climb with him. Fire the remaining -9B's, both come off the rails stupid, and I can't catch the Voodoo. End result: Voodoo damaged, Saber fine, but not definite end.

 

 

Hit, No Kill, Knock It Off

 

Fight #2 I damn well was making sure that Voodoo was going down! Start the fight as a two-circle engagement and...what? The Voodoo's got nose-on first? Well, whatever, roll low and ruin his gun shot. Horizontal scissors ensues and I again end up on his tail. FOX 2 twice! Nothing. Great. Well, fortunately, the Voodoo driver has been wasting his energy maneuvering to shake the heaters, and I've now actually closed on him with the Saber (not an easy feat). Get him inside of gun range, boresight, lead and shoot. The Voodoo detonates off of my nose.

 

 

Fox 2, Twice! Nuthin'!

 

Gettin' a gun solution

 

Good Kill on the Voodoo!

 

Takeaways: I love the Voodoo, but it is far from a turning fighter, or even a vertical fighter. I can see the plane making slashing attacks, or sneaking up on someone (if they manage to miss the huge jet) and gunning them in the ass. On the other hand, the Super Saber's lack of thrust was heavily impairing. I'm starting to think I ought to take it up against a MiG Master (F-8) since the major reason I was able to beat the Voodoo so easily in it was because of its superior turning performance. All of these jets were flying before all-aspect missiles, which means that getting onto an opponent's tail for a gun solution or IR-missile shot was imperative. It seems to me that the Super Saber was the better jet to do so (at least in the world of SF2).

[Slartibartfast 153]

either of you two ever find it amusing that the high practicioners of Naval ACM are Army and Air Force?

 

Makes me smile... but hey I am ex-RAF as well and I have a penchant for flying A-4 Scooters... go figure...

 

And on that note tonight when I get home I will be having an A-4 Fest Random Dogfighting against anything that comes my way with an Echo... could get interesting...

[+daddyairplanes 10,151]

Ceasar, thought the Voodoo was designed as a long range escort fighter it was a VERY unforgiving plane and liked to spin at too low an airspeed or high an AOA. and with its super high wing loading low airspeed was pretty high and high AOA was pretty low! its main two useful roles were as a one way nuclear bomber and recce bird, both down low and bbblazin fast. and i didn't typo blazin! Recce voodoos even went faster in vietnam than the Phantoms they were supposed to replace. but as a fight i believe its settled on role was actually as a Genie launcher.

 

 

matter of fact on a side note most of the century series was built for one of two things.. speed or nuclear capability. missile were to make dogfighting obsolete. unfortuneatly Mikoyan didn't get the memo. and then we were needed to work on Saturday....

Edited June 28, 2011 by daddyairplanes

[Slartibartfast 153]

Air Force Vs Marines...

 

1v1

 

My Ride for the night A-4M 2 Aim-9H 2 drop tanks

 

The opponent... 1 x F-4E(78) 3 Aim-7 Sparrow 4 Aim-9J

 

Terrain Anatolia

 

Okay on the table today was placed an F-4E to be taken down and he had all the cards as my loadout was simulating a Recon run where he was Air to Air all the way... Take off was easy as said than done... and headed towards the play area. No SAM's up for this one when we went to play over the water-ish... Anyway he got to bounce me and popped a Sparrow at me which I out manouvered even the the tanks on as I reefed into a max G Turn...punching the tanks as I went he then popped a Sidewinder at me and squirted the gun at me all missing. I continued my turn as he overshot me and I got tone for the winder held it for 2 seconds and fired, his flares saved his rhino hide... I stayed in his six say about 2 miles back as he had gone over the top of me at around the speed of heat... I ducked the nose to gain some speed and popped my second winder at him same result flares everywhere and a clean miss. Now it was down to if I could catch him which normally I wouldn't be able to but he was jinking and juking like a good un... I steadly closed him down chasing that dark dark smoke and got a gun solution on him and hosed him from about 400 yards taking his tail clean off... and thats all the fat lady wrote...

 

 

My Ride

 

 

Come back here...

 

 

I said come back here and die like an Aviator...

 

 

Wuss ooorar to the marines...

 

Take away nothing much he overshot and then ran...

[Caesar 305]

@Daddyairplanes - yeah, I knew the Voodoo was prone to departures, but I had forgotten how much so! Really is a hand full WVR! I was also anticipating slightly worse performance out of the Super Saber, but it had a pretty good showing in spite of its lack of thrust. Will have to go some more Century Series fights. I hear good things about the -102...but if only it had a gun!

 

@Slarti - Nice kill on the Phantom!

[+EricJ 4,210]

Makes me want to do a Scooter DACT... I think if I get a good template I can reskin the G into an E or F for Aggressor work, or fight as is and still get results.

[Slartibartfast 153]

@Daddyairplanes - yeah, I knew the Voodoo was prone to departures, but I had forgotten how much so! Really is a hand full WVR! I was also anticipating slightly worse performance out of the Super Saber, but it had a pretty good showing in spite of its lack of thrust. Will have to go some more Century Series fights. I hear good things about the -102...but if only it had a gun!

 

@Slarti - Nice kill on the Phantom!

 

 

Makes me want to do a Scooter DACT... I think if I get a good template I can reskin the G into an E or F for Aggressor work, or fight as is and still get results.

At Caesar... wasnt much of a fight to be honest just lately me and the computer have a thing going she goes for high speed slash and runs but rarely mixes it with me, story of my life... only hard part of the kill was chasing him down...

 

At EricJ... go as is and and see how you do... and on your skinning might have to mod an F as a Super Fox... though I think someone has already done this...

Edited June 28, 2011 by Slartibartfast