SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[+EricJ 4,143]

EDIT:
 

That response wasn't anything of the sort of "making any sense":

 

Agreed, the Phantom is a good mud mover but as said, it's a bus and after flying it a bit I give it a thumbs down to it.  I've liked the design as a kid but the way SF2 (as you mentioned) models it just turns me off.  As people may have guessed I prefer the Super Hornet...

Edited October 19, 2014 by EricJ

[cougar_1979 37]

@Kyot54
That was some much appreciated info and a sold post to boot! BTW, the way the sim interprets "light air activity" is striking at times   

EDIT: i'm still not sure about the Phantom. The vanilla ones seam very sluggish at all altitudes, especially with draggy stores. The ones in NF5 seam a bit more lively, but am still in search of a descent NAVY versions. The only time i actually flew with/against F-4s (except the good old Dogfight in the 90's) was actually in Falcon BMS, and the version there was a slatted E i think. Down low it definitely has an edge of the early F-8 they have there. Still.... neither of those (especially the F-8) has had lots of attention pured into it, so i can't vouch for the validity of their flight models.

Now off i go to find a nice F-4 pack to do some Mirage F1, F-8 and MiG match-ups

Edited October 19, 2014 by cougar_1979

[+EricJ 4,143]

Me: F-104A with 4 AIM-9J, gun

Opposition: MIG-21PFM with 2 x Atolls

 

Started above the Fishbed (again its been a while...) and when he finally took off I managed to padlock him and trying to get him to react and almost had a mid-air collision but once he did react he generally outflew me for the better part of the engagement.  He had more energy while I was a bit cornfused as to which way was up and preventing myself from lawn-darting into the ground.  In any event the Mig managed to get on my six a few times and once tried to spike me with an Atoll but given Soviet technology... (date was in 1973) it flew and missed well below me.  After floundering around I managed to stop pulling hard on the stick and once I relaxed a bit (first time ever "combat" flying) I managed to get behind the Mig so I had tone and lock and fired one AIM-9J, which missed, I think.  By this time the Mig-21 was trying to work himself out of my cone but kept maneuvering, keeping firm on the stick and managing to fire another AIM-9J, this time shooting down the enemy fighter.

 

Takeaways:  As mentioned it was my first time ever for fighting the Starfighter so I learned a few things.  Now that I'm a bit more aware I noticed the plane can pull tight and keeping thrust high it was able to sustain the energy, just the Mig-21 moving around so much changed view direction so it was disorienting.  However as I relaxed and was more firm I got a better feel for the jet and able to track the Fishbed quite easy without always using afterburner.  The small size of the Fishbed doesn't help as it's a PITA to see even in WVR fights.  So as such my first one I need to get some more stick time down the road to get a better read but I will say don't mash, be firm and it'll work for you (as some of your Starfighter drivers can say anyway).

[+daddyairplanes 9,892]

to all besmirching the St Louis Slugger........

keep in mind it was initially designed as an Interceptor in an age where dogfights were dead and missiles would kill the bad guys at least 10 miles away.  yeah , Vietnam shattered that myth and all fighters since (such as the Super Bug) have at least paid lip service to that lesson.  but like anything else, play to your strengths and his weaknesses and a brick wall will smash anything in its way.   the Phantom will transition up and down better than anything of its era (MiG17/21).  weps,  well thats why they double tapped Sparrow shots IRL.  as for later in life(the 80s) ,  Phantoms were mainly used for interceptor mission in the ANG and on Midway classes that couldnt handle the Tomcat. all others used it for A2G work  and any kills would have been incidental face shots on ingress or egress. 

[saisran 84]

It's been a long time.. my MKI position is this:

 

[CockpitSeat001]

Position=0.0000,6.25,1.50

 

I remember there was some other modification due to the '13 patch update or so that borked a lot of cockpits, but I think it was this line:

 

OpenCockpit=FALSE

 

Add that to your Cockpit.ini and that may fix that issue in the same [CockpitSeat001]

 

 

Thanks Eric Will Try it out.

 

I thought i got a good fix last night with "the fuselages show from ccockpit set to false". I was fairly satisfied with the result until i looked at the rearview mirror and saw a floating wing. :)

to all besmirching the St Louis Slugger........

keep in mind it was initially designed as an Interceptor in an age where dogfights were dead and missiles would kill the bad guys at least 10 miles away.  yeah , Vietnam shattered that myth and all fighters since (such as the Super Bug) have at least paid lip service to that lesson.  but like anything else, play to your strengths and his weaknesses and a brick wall will smash anything in its way.   the Phantom will transition up and down better than anything of its era (MiG17/21).  weps,  well thats why they double tapped Sparrow shots IRL.  as for later in life(the 80s) ,  Phantoms were mainly used for interceptor mission in the ANG and on Midway classes that couldnt handle the Tomcat. all others used it for A2G work  and any kills would have been incidental face shots on ingress or egress. 

 

I don't think they mean't to besmirch the Phantom. We all know how good the phantom can be once you get used to it. But it dos take a little getting used to when transitioning ftom a more nimble fighter. Personally back when ihave only SFP1 and WOE with no combatace that E model was beast! I flew it more than i flew the eagle.

 

Anyone remember using those AIM-4 Falcons? :)

[+EricJ 4,143]

No problem saisran, as said I had to dig deep in the memory banks to figure it out.

 

I remember Falcons, when I had them F-4E doing strikes, that's about it... had no real faith in them...

[Robert33 2]

@Eric

From what I know about the Starfighter, its one of those planes that demands its pilots to know and respect its limitations and it will respect you back in return.

[+EricJ 4,143]

Fair enough then.

 

I've reinstalled all my SF2 stuff so I'll probably be slightly more active in DACT reports, though requests are always welcome...

[Kyot54 2]

  Sorry for the confusion Eric, I was trying to quote Cougar, without copying the whole post, haven't figured out how to do that yet. First part was me just filling him in on what I've discovered about the MiG-23 to help him out with setting it up as an adversary. Next was my complaining about the F-4 flight model, because I had flown some 1v's and 2v's and felt like I would have done better in a flying greyhound. I think we both agree on that. The last part was me gushing over the Vigilante after having made a self-defense capable (i.e. internal gun) bomber version. I was subtly trying to say I had taken it up against some second and third gen MiGs and it did well.

 

  Dad, sorry, wasn't meaning to dis the real Rhino, just the game flight model. 13-1 Navy kill ratio in Linebacker (with the majority coming from Sidewinders) is good proof the Phantom was maneuverable in the right hands/conditions. And the acceleration and power of the J79's was a good part of that. I'm just fussing that there doesn't seem to be good representation of this reality in game. I'm sure I'd have a lot more fun in the classic Rhino if there were.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             J

[+EricJ 4,143]

  Sorry for the confusion Eric, I was trying to quote Cougar, without copying the whole post, haven't figured out how to do that yet. First part was me just filling him in on what I've discovered about the MiG-23 to help him out with setting it up as an adversary. Next was my complaining about the F-4 flight model, because I had flown some 1v's and 2v's and felt like I would have done better in a flying greyhound. I think we both agree on that. The last part was me gushing over the Vigilante after having made a self-defense capable (i.e. internal gun) bomber version. I was subtly trying to say I had taken it up against some second and third gen MiGs and it did well.

 

  Dad, sorry, wasn't meaning to dis the real Rhino, just the game flight model. 13-1 Navy kill ratio in Linebacker (with the majority coming from Sidewinders) is good proof the Phantom was maneuverable in the right hands/conditions. And the acceleration and power of the J79's was a good part of that. I'm just fussing that there doesn't seem to be good representation of this reality in game. I'm sure I'd have a lot more fun in the classic Rhino if there were.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             J

 

Not your fault man, just thinking and typing at the same time so the poor posting was all me man... but to quote a reply simply press the Quote at the bottom right of the post you want to quote and it'll automatically put the post (as in above) on your post, even on Quick Reply.  I've flown the Vigi myself and left fairly impressed, I just never took the time to trick it out (I may have added bombs... or maybe that was just a mod by somebody else) so no harm done and welcome!

[Kyot54 2]

Thanks Eric. Is there a way to quote only part of the post, without having to quote the whole thing? For like when someone ask or comments on several things in a post and you just want to reply to one? I thought I've seen it done? Maybe it was on another forum though :/ 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     J

[+EricJ 4,143]

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     J

 

Yep if this post works out well

[Kyot54 2]

Ok, I got it, I have to go into the quote and edit there. Roger that. Now, any ideas on how to fix my campaign problem? No bandits showing up in missions. I posted about it in another topic.

[+EricJ 4,143]

Unfortunately no and probably be a good idea to keep it to that topic... The only campaign I've played was Operation Darius (was actually a nice one) and I may have done some DACT writeups but nah man sorry, not a campaign maker, though I did make one though didn't take off (no pun intended) or that's what I thought.  I mainly do skins and the odd DACT then and now.

[cougar_1979 37]

I think i found a very nice USN Phantom N and boy is she a beauty to behold. Eyewatering beauty! I took her up for a few 1 on 1's before going full random mission. I would put her in the same class as the MiG-23, F-104 and Mirage F1 as far as handling goes, with some unique pros and cons of course. She climbs very well, and accelerates too. As you would expect she is not a great turner (still a match for a MiG-21bis) but she has a way with those over the top nose reversals. In fact, few planes i flew so far do it better (one of them being the Cat). Makes it quite easier to swoop down on hapless bandits. Which gives me an idea for a series of (D)ACTS. 23's, 104's, F-4's and F1's duking it out. One on one and two on two, WVR ofcourse. I would like to add the F-8 in the mix, as soon as i find a model that would fit the selection i have (i may have it already i just haven't flown it yet).

Anyway, for the engagement. The starting year is 1971 and it's an escalation of the air war in SE Asia. A flight of 8 NAVY F-4N Phantoms II on a typical fighter sweep mission, get caught up in an erratic furball with some red force MiG-21's. Everyone is air-to air minded (i would guess). Our Phantoms don't carry any gunpods as i feel it would only slow us down. Our We start at angels 16, doing mach 0.9. Then we get a call, multiple bogies, 11 'o clock, 20nm angels 20. Them flying this high could mean only one thing, they came out to play.

I get a cleat set of blips on my radar, that would mean at least 2 separate groups in tight formation. I try to set my flights on the groups, but it would seam that the "attack my target" order only works if you have tally on the bandit. So much for BVR maneuvering. I lock up the left most contact and order wing 3 to attack air. Dropping external tanks and just about the time when flight 3 engages the bogies with sparrows (did i miss on someone calling bandits or did they fire at will). No matter as we are within visual range and i get my first tally on the bogies. MiG-21MF's, comming in hard. I order flght 2 to attack the leading MiG and i engage the trailer. It's bandits, badints, bandits and the furball is on.

Selecting winders, and going into high right turn, trying to reaquire the bandits. There are planes flying in every direction as i scan the sky, it must be at least 6 bandits out there. I set my eyes on one of them and i let him pass as i build up my energy. He dives in and i follow, radar se in boresight mode. I hear a Fox1 and my target goes down in flames. I pick up the next MiG, just to the right and go after him. AAA start popping all around me and scare the living hell out of me, a i think someone is going guns on me. The MiG levels off, i lock him up, select Sparrows, go for Fox1..... and nothing happens..... Fox1 again! This one seams to come off the rail with a working booster. One of my flights get another MiG. Meanwhile, my target dives bellow the horizon and my sparrow goes stupid. I am a slow learner and try to get off another Sparrow while he's in the clutter. Needless to say, this one doesn't even start to guide. I decide to dive in to his level or bellow now and as i do, he does the silliest move possible and starts climbing. I let off my last Sparrow. This one homes in for a while and then just explodes stupid somehere 3/4 to the target. I switch to heaters, and launch right away. Fox2! The gimbal loses sight of the MiG as he pulls hard left and the tone goes in my headset goes down as well. The bandit makes a hard turn thowards me and pull into a displacement rollat over 450 knots. Doing another roll as he's breaking for all he's got. By the time a reaquire him, he has unloaded and regained much of his energy. I decide to do the same and two breaks later i have right on my nose. The growl goes louder and i let him have my second sidewinder. This time he is right up in the sky and the winder brings him down. I turn around to pick up my next target, but it would seam like my little chase with the enemy MiG has took me away from the furball. They appear to be some 20 miles away from me. I get 3 distinct blips on my radar and i decide to intercept. I lock on to one of the blips and move in to ID it. One more MiG goes down in the meantime. The winder gets off a strong growl at whatever is ahead of me, but i can't shoot without making sure it's  not a friendly. Those IR seakers still don't distinguish between red and blue heat emissions. It turns out the plane i had a lock on was that MiG that just got hit. I get a mission complete RTB call, but i still have missiles left and someone seams ot be engaged with MiGs so i decide to stick around some more (mission complete? i must have missed most of the battle even on the radio). I lock on to the contact at my 10 'o clock and turn into it. Someone is getting gragged. I tally the MiG, finally.... and give my wingmen the order to attack. I get a good tone and we both launch. My winder homes in true and it's my second kill. Another one of my wingmen goes down. And i don't even have the slightest of ideas where all of this is happening. As i look around i see mostly my Phantoms flying, so this fight could not have turned out that bad, despite me having a small or no roll in it. I finally see another MiG, 10'o clock high. I padlock it and go in after him setting my wingmen as well. Almost immediately he lets lose a Fox 1 and the MiG is down. This part of the fight seams over (at least we helped a bit) so i scan the sky for more bandits. I get a call at my six and i do a 1-80 to pick it up on my radar. There is definitely something there, at my 12'o clock high. And it's not alone. One of the Phantoms is engaging it. It must be his ehaust that my winder is picking up. I move in closer to get a visual confirmation. Another MiG-21. As i follow him to get a clear shot, my flight gets one more kill. These guys are doing suprisingly well on their own. The MiG spots me and makes a hard left turn, bleeding his energy rapidly. I pull up, roll on my back and dive for him. He reverses into a right break bellow me. At times like this i wish i had a gun. I let some  separation build between us and then follow him in a hard dive. I almost black out as my F-4 buffets trying to stay on the MiG's turning curve. Over the radio i recieve a message that 4 is bingo on fuel. I can't be far away from bingo myself, so this fight has to end soon. Fortunately i finally level off with him perched high at my 12. I come around from the blackout and launch the winder. It's my last one and goes in right for the kill. It's splash 3 for me. It's time to go home. I order a regroup and head for base. The order has not yet sinked in as another MiG goes down. How many of them are there?! And another one! At this point i decide to cut the video short so i can upload it.

Total mission score.... 10 freaking MiGs destroyed. 7 primary and 3 additional. 3 Phantoms were lost as well. I am not used to AI friendlies doing this well when outnumbered. Takeways, in this era avoid shooting at targets bellow the horizon. Also avoid firing your heaters at more then 15-20 degrees angle-off. Aside from that. Keep your Phantom fast and you will have no problems turning with those MiG's, or better yet, Yo-Yo-ing them. And keep a more mindful attention of the battlespace.

[+EricJ 4,143]

That last part agreed, I shoot HUD (keeping the 'winder inside the HUD frame) with older model Sidewinders but sometimes even a 9X shot requires a HUD shot when needed, usually when the target isn't moving too much relative to my position or just an easy shot i do it for giggles.

[Robert33 2]

Don't know how much of this applies to SF2 but I found a copy of the SURE report (F-104 "Manual") online.

 

This might help budding Starfighter aficionados here:

 

http://www.916-starfighter.de/cartoons%20.htm 

[+EricJ 4,143]

Linky no worky...

[Robert33 2]

Hmm... that's odd... works fine with me...

 

Anyway, here's a sample from SURE (Starfighter Utilization Reliability Effort) Report:

 

[+EricJ 4,143]

Well if I backspace and just go with the standard link it works fine, so cool to look at

[Robert33 2]

@EricJ

Yup, its considered a very rare and important historical document as far as the Starfighter community is concerned (as well as probably by many within the aviation community).

 

Last I checked, Lockheed Martin still has the rights to the document itself.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Robert33

[+EricJ 4,143]

Nice, though tomorrow (it's getting late even for me) I may do a F-104/Mig-23 though, seems like the top choice to deal with too.

[Kyot54 2]

    While doing some research on Luftwaffe F-4F's I ended up wikipedia-ing Erich Hartmann. Seems he was decidedly against West Germany getting the F-104, and it ended up being one of the things that lead to his retirement. It goes on to say that operational records proved his point, something like 200+ operational incidents occurred before Germany moved on to the F-4, which they just retired a couple of years ago. Just thought I'd share, feel free to check it out, not hard to find :)

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       J

[cougar_1979 37]

Some shot pre-DACT debrief....
I flew with F-4's, Mirage F1s', F-104's and MiG-23G MLA in preparation for some more in depth DACT reports. I only have the F-8 to test and i should be ready to go. Still.... from my previous Crusaider experience, i don't think that bird belongs here. But enough of that. These 4 birds are roughly equivalent to each other, at least in their clean configurations. They all like to be flown above 400KIAS (or 750km/h - metric). They all accelerate well and climb ok. Having external stores on them affects their capabilities in varied ways. Generally, the larger the plane, the less the penalty. So a Phantom with 4 winders is almost as good as a clean Phantom. Just don't put that 1500lbs gun pod on it (it will be hell to test it in a gun fight). On the other hand, a Zipper with 4 winders is considerably bugged down, in contrast with the same plane packing only 2, or zero missiles. Most of my fights were guns only though (when aplicable), cause i wanted to test the plane, not the weapon systems. 

To my surprise, as far as pure turning ablity, acceleration and overal agility goes, the MLA seams to be about half a step ahead of the competition. It turns very well above 400KIAS, and it regains speed rapidly when unloaded. The closest match to it seams to be the F-104. I think i can see why it was chosen as an aggressor surogate. Flying one against the other felt like flying the F-14A against the Mirage 2000. Almost mirrored sustained and acceleration turn capability with only slight advantages to the 23 in the horizontal. That alone would have made this bird the most "dogfighty" of the bunch if it wasn't for the flaws. First, my greatest bother is the cockpit. It is built like a coffin. I have flown WW2 tactical bombers with pits less claustrophobic then this one.  On top of that, you have a huge blind spot (covered by some kind of metal surface over the canopy) that completely blocks your view along the entire lift vector. How are you supposed to execute vertical maneuvers if you can't look through your lift vector is beyond me. And the thing is really good in the vertical. Then there is the other blind spot, right behind you. The second big issue i have with the plane is the buffet. This thing starts to buffet very early, even at medium angles of attack and the thing only gets worse as you slow down. Drop bellow 750km/h and you'll start to feel the "delay" in your command inputs. Drop even slower and you lose nose authority like in nothing i have flown in SF2 so far. Try avoid doing this when down low as the bird can decide to "wobble" it's nose in random directions which may result in you kissing the treetops or the local countryside.

The F-4 is the pure opposite. Flies like a brick, stable as brick, hard as brick. Even when slow, the plane won't do anything stupid unless you really insist on it. Even then you will get plenty of worning prior to it. It has all the climb and acceleration of the 104 and the 23, but in a more rubust casing. It feels heavy even when in a hard turn. It wond buffer quite as early as the 23, but it won't turn as well either. Not unless you plan your turn in advance and sort of "set it up". Without the drag and weight penatly of the gun pod, it holds a close 3rd place in its dogfighting capability. It has a better visibility from the pit then the 23 (no big surprise there), but worse then the 104. It can easily outlast both on fuel though. Against a clean 104 or 23, your best game is to stay alive long enough for them to dry  out, and your big brick has just about enough of the right stuff to do it and maybe even get a few lucky shots (guns) at the enemy. Throw in the winders (and drop the pod) and the playing field levels fast.

The Mirage F1 is a mixed bag so far. I am not sure where to exactly put it. It feels somewhat like the Phantom and it almost looks like the French wanted to build a plane that would compete with it. But.... it's a somewhat more "temperamental" Phantom. It has more vices in the drity parts of the envelope then the phantom, but less then the 23. It buffets strongly during rapid transitions from transonic to mid subsonic speeds in a loaded turn. It also has a nasty departure when extremely slow. But it also feels somewhat more lively then the phantom and it appears more agile in some aspects. Some may love its bad temper, but personally i prefer the predictability of the F-4.

I won't go much into the 104 beyond what i've already said when describing my impressions of the other birds as i have flown it and wrote about it quite a bit in my recent DACTs. It has few vices. It climbs best of all the other candidates. It rolls fast too. Good acceleration and a good turning ablitly (sustained 7g at 500 or so KIAS). It is not as violent when slow like the 23, but then again it is also much more timid and sluggish at those speeds. Excellent cockpit visiblity. Much better then the other birds. The F1 follows 2ndm but it's far behind.

Well that's about it for now. If anyone has any more experience flying this birds, feel free to jump in at any time. Meanwhile i am off the rest the Crusaider.
Good night gentlemen....

[+EricJ 4,143]

Not bad of a read...

 

Me: TW F-104A with 4 x AIM-9J, gun

Opposition: Mig-23ML with 4 x Aphids and 2 x Apex AAMs, gun.

 

Started off a above the Mig and allowed him to take off.  When he sensed me he tried to force me into an energy circle but I maneuvered to counter and he stopped trying to push that and instead flew generally north in an attempt to weave out of a possible engagement cone. For the most part the aircraft was easy to spot (compared to the Mig-21, which is roughly similar in size) maybe because of the mottled green camo rather than the Fishbed's silver.  Overall I think the AI is either too un-aggressive or for some reason he didn't want to play (may be the poor rearward visibility) but anyway, the Flogger tried to shake me to overshoot (maybe I should have, as I countered with brakes) and he shot in front of me and flew like a lemming (air brakes still open) and I shot him down with a 9J.

 

Takeaways: I think I just anticipate the overshoot and don't overshoot which caused it to be non-aggressive, which to me is boring, so it flew on and I got a solid lock and splashed him.  So next bout I'll actually overshoot and see how that turns out, but learning from the past engagement (as well as the information provided in detail) didn't force me to force the plane, but keeping it firm allowed me to stay with the Flogger.

Edited October 22, 2014 by EricJ