SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[cougar_1979 37]

Being in the burner doesn't always yield the best turn performance. As one member said managing your angle and speed can provide better results. Besides the FM on this F-35A seems able to accelerate on full pull in the afterburner with the end result being a blackout and sometimes understeer? :)

I could not agree more. Going for best turn rates and radius is almost always better then going for the best g load.

[cougar_1979 37]

Yeah he wasn' t really pushing that much (compared to the UFO Su-27) so it was easy to keep on his tail or maneuver (as I did several times) and shoot him.  I only applied air brakes so I wouldn't ram him (towards the end).

Good shooting there mate! And even better maintained  "eye on the bandit". 

@zwz, yeah, pretty much so. High energy bleeding maneuvers are almost never a good idea, even when flying one-on-one. Especially in a big and heavy fighter like the Flanker. Eric demostrates the major weakness of such maneuver here, where he uses a mix of rolling scissors and high Yo-Yo to quickly turn the tables on the bandit even after the overshoot. Many Flanker proponents would argue that a Cobra-like maneuver can be used for executing quick shapshots on overshooting planes, but i just don't see how. There are over 360 degrees of sky in every direction, and there is no way in the world to tell where will the enemy overshoot..... if he even does. Once inside the gun envelope (or bubble) even whith an HMS you can't get a good shot at a closely passing enemy. Especially when the closure is high.

 

EDIT: sorry for the double post....

Edited November 7, 2014 by cougar_1979

[Caesar 305]

I could not agree more. Going for best turn rates and radius is almost always better then going for the best g load.

Prezactly!

 

Knowing where your aircraft best sustains its turn vice where it can sustain max "g" is imperative to success.  Also, just because an aircraft can achieve something like 9g does not necessarily mean it will outperform an aircraft that does less.  If an aircraft can sustain, say, 6g at 310 knots (~21 deg/sec and 1450 ft radius at sea level), it will be able to out-turn a 9g aircraft that needs 500 knots to sustain that "g" (~19.5 deg/sec and 2600ft radius at sea level).  So, in the examples of the F-35 vs. Su-35, the trick would be to hold the F-35 in a region where it best performs, vice just shooting for max "g."  Sometimes, this means dropping airspeed, "g" or otherwise.  That's one of the things I've started to use a lot more in recent years; AI in UFO like aircraft have to pull ridiculously high "g" to threaten me, while I hang out at lower speed and lower "g" and can either match their turn in a tighter circle and lower "g" or prevent them from threatening me by cutting off their angles.

[cougar_1979 37]

A bit late (it's been a busy week), but here is the las part of that DACT series. This time it's F-4E VS Mirage F1 and 104 VS MiG-23ML.
As part one, i've uploaded the F-4 VS Mirage sorites. Same conditions apply as in the other fights and i start recording roughly 10nm out.

Hop 1. I fly the F-4. By now i've seen enough of all the planes, so i don't even need to make these fights to see how they perform in comparisson. As a result, i allow myself more "creative freedom" or less strict rules of engagement. We merge on our left, and by the end of my first turn i am already nose-on him. He is not too far behind though (no big surprise as we are roughly similar when transonic), so we go for another neutral pass. This is when i decide to experiment and try to see if i can lure him in a vertical fight and make this video more fun to watch. I pull into the vertical and make a lightly loaded climb to angels 20. He is deep bellow me, on my 10-11 low, so i dive after him. He spots me and turns into me for another high neutral pass. He does not climb though, so it's probably gonna be another turning contest. I use my built up energy to pull some lead and get him on a defensive. He bleeds a lot of energy while breaking and tries to compensate by going nose low. I finally saddle on his 6, but it seams i have build up too much of an energy advantage and unless i break hard i as sure to overshoot. Instead of breaking though, i remember Eric's fight and decide to enter rolling scissors. I roll out a bit, pull up and get above him. Then i roll back in and pull down, waiting to see if he has enough energy to go after me. He pulls up, but he climbs very slowly which means he is probably low on juice. I roll again and try to get in his plane of manuvering. As he gets at the top of his climb and preapres to dive again i pull up after him and get a good snap shot, splashing him out of the sky on the second scissor iteration. Takeaways...... at this point in time, not really anything new. This was my second fight against the F1 in the Phantom. I didn't uplaod the first one, because we went into flat scissors and he stalled out and crashed his plane (the low speed F1 death trap). One thing i am pleased about is that even though i failed to lure him in a vertical fight, the engagement did end in rolling scissors, which are also somewhat rare as the AI prefers the horizontal ones.

Hop 2. Same fight, roles reversed. One difernce i manage to notice, the Phantom is bigger when looking from the front, so i manage to see him earlier. Me merge on the left side again, but this time i fail to get an early nose on. I continue in a lag pursuit, trying to find his turning circle. As he slowly moves into my sights, i manage to get myself on the verge of a blackout and i am forced to unload, leting him fly across my hud. I reengage him and we start to spiral down, step by step with each turn. What i fail to notice is that his aspect has changed and has used a lot of his energy to almost point his nose at me. As he is now a lot slowe then me, he tries to push a nose to nose engagement. I try to get there first and give off a high defelction burst at him, but only a small portion of it hits. Only later do i notice i have failed to set my gunsight in air to air mode, and the thing didn't compute any lead. We make another hard left break and pass each other nose to nose. I set up my gun sight, (a bit late) and prepare for another run. Knowing of the nasty stall however, i am not prepared to go A-4 on him and cut inside his turn. Instead if i can;t get him withou dropping bellow 350KAS, i wll go vertical on my next pass, using the extra energy i have to bounce him from above. Fortune favors me though, and i manage to get a good shot while going head to head with him (jamming one of my guns in the process). Being a smaller target maybe helped a  bit, but it was pure luck that he didn't fly right through my canopy. And i didn't even get a lock on him this time. Final verdict, the F-4 accelerates a bit better in the transonic and handles better at lower speeds, but the F1 is smaller  and completely equal in the high susonic transonic maneuvering fight.

One question i have for you guys. When i flew this sorties, i went for BVR engagements a few times. I tried to give my sparrows (or equivalnet) the extra legs by going faster when approaching but the  dynamic launch zone did not seam to increase. In fact, it was not dynamic at all. The missile shot became available at axactly the same ranges every time. What are your experinces with this? Can the DLZ be expanded at all? Is this modeled in the sim?

[+EricJ 3,934]

Good shooting there mate! And even better maintained  "eye on the bandit". 

@zwz, yeah, pretty much so. High energy bleeding maneuvers are almost never a good idea, even when flying one-on-one. Especially in a big and heavy fighter like the Flanker. Eric demostrates the major weakness of such maneuver here, where he uses a mix of rolling scissors and high Yo-Yo to quickly turn the tables on the bandit even after the overshoot. Many Flanker proponents would argue that a Cobra-like maneuver can be used for executing quick shapshots on overshooting planes, but i just don't see how. There are over 360 degrees of sky in every direction, and there is no way in the world to tell where will the enemy overshoot..... if he even does. Once inside the gun envelope (or bubble) even whith an HMS you can't get a good shot at a closely passing enemy. Especially when the closure is high.

 

EDIT: sorry for the double post....

 

Thanks! I could have... should have mentioned as the Yo-Yo entered the mind when I was both during the engagement and watching the vid.  As mentioned by zwz that the -35 went into a Cobra like attitude (a nugget could have had me dead to rights in all honesty) and it just eventually degenerated from there.  I guess I was expecting a UFO-like attitude and instead looking back it seems it was more defensive than offensive (no gun? going to have to check that out) but I think in that case the Cobra shot was ill-timed and bad angle as he had no shot (which he had until he did what he did).  So basically man I'm scratching my head.  Tomorrow I'll get the Su-37 checked out before I see how that turns out.  Apparently the Super Flankers are just not cutting it.  The MKI however does give some push so maybe I'll "warm up" or just roll and see how the Terminator goes.

Edited November 8, 2014 by EricJ

[Caesar 305]

One question i have for you guys. When i flew this sorties, i went for BVR engagements a few times. I tried to give my sparrows (or equivalnet) the extra legs by going faster when approaching but the  dynamic launch zone did not seam to increase. In fact, it was not dynamic at all. The missile shot became available at axactly the same ranges every time. What are your experinces with this? Can the DLZ be expanded at all? Is this modeled in the sim?

 

Cougar,

 

No, dynamic launch zone is not modeled in this sim, but at the same time, missile performance does require you to know envelopes to an extent.  This is especially true for the AIM-54 in the F-14 SuperPack.  It can be fired from 115NM, but will hit its target only if the target is closing with you (and it also helps to have speed on the jet).  If you try to fire at that range against a target flying perpendicular to your flight path, the missile won't reach.  You have to be around 65-70NM or so to hit a non-closing target.  Running, I still haven't found the max range yet.  It does boil down to how each missile is modeled, however.  Some missiles can still hit a non-closing target at advertised Rmax, which they can't do in reality (e.g. the AIM-7F could hit a closing target at I think 26NM, but 90 degrees angle-off lowered that range to 8NM).

[saisran 84]

Nice post guys. Wasn't able to get back till now. Found an SU-35BM on the SF1 download section (but aren't those supposed to be banned?) but haven't installed it yet. i did however found an updated Mig-29OVT which i am pretty much interested in. So decided to took that for a spin.

 

Mig-29OVT vs FA-18F Super Hornet ( i realized that i need to update my hornets) Guns only.

 

 

The fight took around 4 and a half fun filled mins while i try to get grips on both fighters. The high alpha on the hornet must have pleased the AI as instead of trying to go for a one circle engagement he invited me to a mixed foght of verical reversals and yoyos.

 

Overspeed on the merge at Mach1.50 (man can this plane accelerate). blackout on a right hand turn. Ended up in a head on after 1 turn. A quick pull just to scare the AI a bit. We passed and the Supah went high I followed. As i exited my loop the supah passed underneath and i initiated a left hander to try to get behind his tail. As i got behind his 3/9 line he initiated a downward spiral to aid his turn and speed. I then droped my nose to cut inside his turn and tried for a shot which didnt connect. He went for up which the Mig easily followed. on the way down i had him right in the middle of the piper and pulled. but it seems like i needed a bit more lead. He intiated a right turn and pointed his nose high to to start the yoyo. tried the guns again but still off. He went up again and this time i got a generous amount of lead and pulled the trigger. This time the 30mm connected and ripped off the left stab and the outer flaps.  The supah was wounded but not dead. Sensei always said that if i ever gonna get into a fight, i need to make sure that the other guy wont be able to get back at me. Followed behind the wounded foe and lined im up nice and slow. Two short burst and job done.

 

http://youtu.be/Z0w7c4iVygk 

 

 

The FM of the Mig-29OVT threw e off. Not really sure how a thrust vectoring aircraft handles but i thought it should act kinda like a rear wheel drive car on a drift course.

 

This is what i thought it should do. Pull on the stick exhaust angles up in the same direction as the horizontal stabs Since the exhaust is angled up the tail should dip a bit which points the nose in the direction it intended to go. which should make it feel like it pivots somewhere up front. The OVt feels like it pivots on its tail. like hoisting a long heavy pole up by holding it on its base.

[+EricJ 3,934]

Linky no worky saisran.  I may have the OVT handy but if not I'll get it sometime.  Nice DACT though.

[KJakker 875]

Linky no worky saisran.  I may have the OVT handy but if not I'll get it sometime.  Nice DACT though.

I found what appears to be the proper link on YouTube for you.

 

[cougar_1979 37]

Cougar,

 

No, dynamic launch zone is not modeled in this sim, but at the same time, missile performance does require you to know envelopes to an extent.  This is especially true for the AIM-54 in the F-14 SuperPack.  It can be fired from 115NM, but will hit its target only if the target is closing with you (and it also helps to have speed on the jet).  If you try to fire at that range against a target flying perpendicular to your flight path, the missile won't reach.  You have to be around 65-70NM or so to hit a non-closing target.  Running, I still haven't found the max range yet.  It does boil down to how each missile is modeled, however.  Some missiles can still hit a non-closing target at advertised Rmax, which they can't do in reality (e.g. the AIM-7F could hit a closing target at I think 26NM, but 90 degrees angle-off lowered that range to 8NM).

 

Ahh, that makes sense now. No matter how much juice i added i could never get that extra leg on it. Thanks mate!

I found what appears to be the proper link on YouTube for you.

 

Nice flying. It looks like the gun sight is a bit out of alignement and this is what gave you the aiming difficulties at the start. Judging by your last two shots, you should probably always aim a bit infront of the maneuvering target.

[saisran 84]

Thanks for reposting the Vid KJakker didn't realized that the link wasn't working. Sorry Eric.

 

@Cougar. - it might be but since ive been having difficulty with two other AC today i think im just not putting enough lead. Maybe its from transitioning back and forth from a 20MM vulcan to the 30MMs of the russian cannons. Different ROF, spread and velocity ???

 

Did three Fights today but im afraid i can only post 1 tonight. rest are to follow. 

 

This engagement between the FA-18F and the Mig-29OVT is quite interesting.

 

 

As i found the Bandit over Enemy Airspace with active Air Defense System a new element was thrown in. Dodging SAMs while trying to outmaneuver your opponent and trying to get a gun solution while it AAA illuminates your mirrors is a bit nerve wrecking and a lot of fun.

 

How the OVT met its end will forever remain a mystery. Crashed in pursuit or got hit by his friends SAM/AAA? I havent flown the Hornets a lot especially the F model but i have to say. The scenario i found myself really made the plane shine. The modern ECM, the ample amount of decoys and its great agility gave me confidence to wade though all those ground fire. The Super Hornet is very very responsive. And between the OVT and the F it feels like the 18F is the one that has thrust vectoring.

[Caesar 305]

The new F-5E came out today!  Beautiful model, cockpit is wonderful...figured I'd take it up to see how it handles.

 

Going up against the F-4E (72) in an F-5E (72), at about 10-15k feet, all you need to do is a one-circle fight.  Put the aircraft in about a 6.5g turn with the F-4 at the merge, held the turn, caught up, and shot him down.

 

So, I figured, why not take it up against an F-14?  Using the same F-5E, I brought the aircraft up against an IRIAF F-14A.  I know the AI can't fly the F-14, but it CAN do some stuff before it goes and pisses all the energy away.  In essence, the fight was interesting for about two loops.  At the merge, the F-14 was trying to hot-nose the F-5.  The F-5 maintained angle-off, so as not to risk a 1:1 in a joust, even with a larger opponent.  F-5 pulls into the vertical at the merge, the F-14 rolls on its back and dives.  As the F-5 reaches the apex of the loop, the F-14 reaches the bottom of its own and starts coming back up.  The F-5 notices that the F-14 has burned energy for nose position, and is close to threatening the Tiger.  The F-5 changes course for angle-off, pulling back into the F-14 as the two pass.  Another iteration and the F-5 still has no advantage, however, the AI goes downhill from here.  The two fighters start to level out and the AI is about 80-100 knots below its best sustained turn speed.  It is now only a matter of time.  One thing I will say, the F-14's better alpha makes it able to jink fairly well in spite of its size.  The thing is, the F-14 just about fills the windscreen; it's difficult to miss.  During the first burst, however, the F-5's left gun jammed.  The F-14 takes a hit, but is still flying.  The F-14 is flying efficiently enough that the F-5 needs just over 60 more seconds before it can fire again, this time, setting the right engine alight, and taking some flaps.  The fire goes out, and the F-5 finally shoots down the F-14 about 45 seconds later.  Of note: the right gun jammed right at the same time!

 

Some shots:

 

 

 

 

On the flip side of the coin:

 

Well, that was kind of easy.  The AI F-14 managed to threaten me about twice, but that was it.  How does it handle the F-5?  To find this out, I took an F-14A (74) against an IRIAF F-5E (72).  The F-14 had about 11,500lbs of fuel entering the arena.  Fighting against the F-5 was not difficult, but HITTING it was.  Whereas an F-14, F-15, Su-27 series, MiG-31, etc. are pretty easy to hit, the F-5 is a tiny little target, and it took me over 400 rounds to finally bring the Tiger down; 8 were hits.  The fight went like this:  F-14 goes vertical at the merge, F-5 goes low and into a turn.  F-14 has gravity aiding it, pulls hard as the F-5 passes in altitude on the way up, and shortly after gets on the F-5's tail.  F-14 spends next 5 minutes saddled on the F-5 in a left-hand turn.  The F-14 hit the F-5 early on but didn't disable any of the F-5's flight controls or engine, so it may well have not happened, and the F-5 is finally shot down in a left-hand turn at about 18,000 feet.

 

 

 

 

 

Takeaways:

The new F-5E is a lot of fun to fly.  It's a maneuverable little plane; I'll have to try it against an A-4F or an F-16 (or MiG-17 or MiG-29), since the AI seems to handle those planes a lot better than the larger fighters (well known, that).  Going against the F-5, any 4th Gen fighter shouldn't have a problem so long as you play your advantages, but that sucker is tough to hit thanks to its small size.  I haven't tried the F-4E vs. new F-5E yet, either.  Great job to the team, and if you don't have it yet, download the new Tiger!

[saisran 84]

The new F-5E came out today!  Beautiful model, cockpit is wonderful...figured I'd take it up to see how it handles.

 

Great job to the team, and if you don't have it yet, download the new Tiger!

 

Cool. I'll get one!  And great DACT as always man. 

[+EricJ 3,934]

I had one yesterday but the video got jacked up.  So I'll redo it and see if the video takes hold better.

[+EricJ 3,934]

Me; F/A-18F Block II EPE with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120D, tank, gun

Opposition: F-5E with 2 x AIM-9J/Ns (I think I got the type right... I think).  Guns, tank

 

 

Takeaways: Man I needed every little bit of power with that thing... as you can see the small size of the F-5 throws you off greatly, as when he tried to gun me down I didn't know where he really was (other than in front since I was using padlock) in relation to me.  The first shot was a pure 50/50 chance of even going in the right direction and obviously I got the bad half.  Reviewing the FM its not to my knowledge a UFO its just a really zippy (and small of course) plane that works around you trying to get on you and you just have to use padlock to have an idea.  I'd also like to call the last shot an "Off-boresight" shot but I'd be lying as it was on the right edge of the HUD so I'll claim a HUD shot rather to be honest.  Other than that it's a good indication that I need to use better judgement especially with that fighter, as when it slowed down and decided to level out gave me (and I was glad I could pull around like that or I would have missed the shot.  But it's a tenacious opponent and given the agility of the EPE it still was a challenge.

[Caesar 305]

I did a check against the F-5 in an F-14D; the fight lasted about 45 seconds from the merge.  The more powerful engines allow the F-14B/D to not only turn but accelerate while turning with the F-5, so I was able to get very close and gun the smaller aircraft expediently.  It was largely the same fight, albeit in about one-eighth the time: vertical loop, turn onto the F-5, but with loads of smack on the jet from the GE engines.  Line up at close range, guns, fight's over.  I also was able to take the F-5 up against an F-8E.  The F-8 seems to have similar alpha to the F-5, if not slightly better in between 10 and 15,000 feet, but the Crusader never got nose on.  We wound up in a range of scissors maneuvers, initially, I was about to overshoot the F-8 as I was getting a position of advantage, so I pull into the vertical and the F-8 counters, and we went through about three iterations of rolling scissors.  At the top of one of the loops, I fed in more rudder and some lateral stick to try to slice the nose down, and the scissors started to flatten out. Eventually I was able to get behind the F-8 and gun him, but it was a lot better fight that the AI put up than in a larger fighter!  Still experimenting on both sides of the F-5.  Will likely try some of the other 3rd and 4th gens tonight/tomorrow.

 

ADDED:

 

First additional report: F-5E vs. F-15C (79)

 

In the F-5E against the F-15C (79) I found the fight like an elongated fight against the F-4E.  The F-15C can sustain pretty high "g" but for whatever reason, the AI bungles it.  This was a one circle to the end; just a long left-hand turn.  What was surprising to me was that the AI went into a nose-low circle, which allowed me to sustain energy until the F-15 was on the deck and had to pull up to not become a lawn dart.  Now, maybe like I brought up earlier, the F-15 was at a higher airspeed and couldn't turn as tightly at the given "g," but it would have behooved the AI to do either a vertical press or a sustained altitude turn, which I couldn't easily match in the F-5.  Regardless, the F-15 never got nose on, and when he pulled straight up, like the F-14, the F-15 is hard to miss with guns, and the F-5 bagged the F-15 at about 2 minutes from the merge.

 

On the flip side:

 

The F-15C (79) handled the F-5E (72) without too much difficulty.  I always miss the flaps/slats I have in the F-14 at slow speeds, but the F-15C has a lot of raw power, and if you wind up slow, it doesn't take too long to rebuild energy.  In this case, I did a vertical press, coming down I had a little less authority due to no flaps/slats, but still wound up behind the F-5.  The F-5 was able to keep the fight neutral for about a minute or two because it took me a moment to build back energy while turning with the F-5.  Like the F-15, the F-5 went nose low and I followed, eventually catching up to the small fighter.  Just like the F-15, he had to pull up to avoid the ground, but being the small, nimble little bastard that he is, the F-5 put on some harsh moves for guns-D.  For a moment it almost looked like he'd get the fight neutral again with some harsh twisting followed by a sudden, high-g pull to the right.  Unfortunately for him the F-15 had all the thrust to spare and caught right back up.  In that turn, I was able to land a burst and the F-15 bagged the F-5 at about 3 minutes from the merge.

 

ADDED 2: F-5E vs. F-16C Blk 30

 

So, I'm not sure why, but this fight went just like against the F-15.  Exactly the same.  I'm playing against "Excellent" AI, so I have no idea why it's doing the same damn thing with all of the aircraft, but sustained left-hand nose-down turn, pull up, guns.

 

On the flip side:

 

This time, I didn't do a vertical press, but instead went for a sustained turning fight.  The F-16 does out-turn the F-5 at high speeds, so I had to unload every once in a while to clear the screen (black out), however, I got on the F-5's tail after about three circles, and MAN I forgot how jumpy the F-16 is in the gun pattern!  Half of my problems with hitting the F-5 were caused by how fast the F-16 rolls and pulls.  Like a mosquito on coke or something!  Finally lined the F-5 up and got guns on it at around the 2 minute 30 second mark.

 

Major takeaways:

In the gunfight, the F-5 is absolutely able to hold its own against newer generation aircraft.  On the flip side, like I said above, the F-5 isn't the most difficult opponent for a 4th gen fighter, but for hitting it with the gun!  Its small size and ability to perform sudden jinks make it more difficult to gun at medium to long range than a larger fighter.  Even hitting an F-16 or F-8 was a breeze compared to hitting the F-5.  

[+EricJ 3,934]

BTW Happy Veteran's Day to the US Vets!

[zwz 0]

After reading all these posts I still have no idea what "vertical press" really means. Could some one give a more intuitive explanation?

[+EricJ 3,934]

Er... odd I don't know how to describe it... I stay away from official terms as I'm a more hands on guy. but from what i can think it's pressing the advantage against the attacker in a vertical fight.  Usually "press" is usually in fighter jock terms (Caesar can probably tell it better) is go for the attack, i.e. get aggressive, so if you "press" the attack it means to start pushing for the advantage, etc.  and get the kill regardless of aspect between you and the opposing fighter, and especially if you know you have the advantage, so you push to get into a good firing position.  Admittedly I don't take the time to do research on the stuff, I just go with layman's terms (because really in most sense I approach it that way) since that makes more sense than highfalutin terms.

Edited November 11, 2014 by EricJ

[Centurion-1 1,228]

I am glad you guys are having fun with the F-5E! I sort of figured you might, and indeed it seems to hold it's own vs. 4th gens pretty well in capable hands, as it has proven to do in real-life aggressor squadrons.

 

While testing, the only plane I've really struggled with is the 3W miG-17 which is an excellent turner.

[saisran 84]

I am glad you guys are having fun with the F-5E! I sort of figured you might, and indeed it seems to hold it's own vs. 4th gens pretty well in capable hands, as it has proven to do in real-life aggressor squadrons.

 

While testing, the only plane I've really struggled with is the 3W miG-17 which is an excellent turner.

 

It is very nice. I haven't flown against the Mig-17 but i flew it against a similar small agile plane realeased in the sane time period of the mid 70s.

 

F-5E 74L Vs KfirC1_77 guns only.

 

it was a one circle all the way which lasted for about 2 mins. The F-5 was able to turn with the kifir at almost any regime. It was only a matter of when i would get bored with going round and round in circles and start pressing the fight. In the ended it a brief black out moement, thje kifir going nose low to regain momentum I kept turning at the same altitude until i am right on top of him. drop down and his six kept the turnm. Trigger down. miss, miss, miss. Bleed off energy to under 300Kias and finally got a couple of rounds in the kfir's airframe.

[+EricJ 3,934]

I am glad you guys are having fun with the F-5E! I sort of figured you might, and indeed it seems to hold it's own vs. 4th gens pretty well in capable hands, as it has proven to do in real-life aggressor squadrons.

 

While testing, the only plane I've really struggled with is the 3W miG-17 which is an excellent turner.

 

Its only unfortunate though that we have blow them out of the sky .  I'll get off my butt and get in the F-5 and go with it and see how it goes.  But yeah man great work!

[cougar_1979 37]

Finally a small window in time to write, fly and upload...... it's been a long week....

To conclude these un-dogdighty dogfights, this is the last match-up, the "twins" F-104 VS MiG-23, the G versus the ML

Hop1, standard setup, 25nm neutral position. The video starts at the 10nm mark. Acquiring a radar lock with the F-104G seams a bit harder then with the other planes, so i guess the BVR would be less favorable in this case. Plugging the afterburner to get some initial bust for the merge. Merging at probably over 1000 knots closure. We both start a right nosto to tail two circle turn. With the radar set to boresight i get a nose on target first and cross his path at some 90 degree angle off. Turning again to get inside his circle. 1/4 circle later and i get radar lock, but the bandit has enough energy for a hard right break. I follow his turn but try to maintain a best sustained turn at around 400-450 knots. Trying to turn with him confirms just how close the two AC are matched when high on energy. WE slowly spiral down to ground level. At around time index 3:40 he suddenly decides to pull up of some reason and helps me get an easy six on him. Though only for a moment as he immediately goes in a low Yo-Yo, one i can easily match. From that moment he is all defensive and i got the initiative. The bandit goes through a series of hard breaks, trying to initiate flat scissors, causing him to lose some energy. It still easy to follow him. I get right in the gun parameters and try a several snapshots. He jinks like mad and i have some trouble connecting. Not for long. After a series of 3-4 misses, a small number of tracers finds the wau to his tailpipe and the following burst is off with enough lead to splash him mid air.

Hop2. same fight, roles reversed. The MiG gets an easy lock the 104. I also get the impression that the acceleration is somewhat better in the transonic part of the envelope. However, from previous flights i also know the 23 has a very small endurance when in burner (yes even when compared with the 104) so i will have to be careful not to run out of fuel. I try to replicate the previous engagement, but the low-vis cockpit and the somewhat increased bleed rate then the 104 makes me execute a less then a perfect first turn, so we wind up in a neutral head on. Trying to shorten the total time i'd need for another nose on, i go vetical this time, thinking the extra thrust will provide advantage. Getting your lift vector on the bandit with that huge metal rod/thing right where the bandit will be in a turning fight is no easy tast though. I keep losing sight of him. As i do, he goes vertical himself and i decide to intercept his turn with a sustained left horizontal turn. Even as i manage to awlays keep a good energy advantage over him, as soon as he starts breaking i have trouble followong him in. The 23 suffers a strong buffet, bit just when slow, but when in medium-high angle of attack. At least the thrust isn't an issue. But if continue failing to get a good angle on him, i risk losing the fight on endurance. We both enter a downward spiral trying to give extra energy to out turns. There isn't enough place to go as we are already low, so this fight enters into a long circling match. Exactly what i dreadded the most. I attempt a series of breaks and recoveries to "steal" some angles on him with every turn. And it seams to work, 2-3 itterations later i am very close to him and with only some 20-30 degrees angle off. However we now enter the final part of a gun fight, when good low speed handling and keeping a good eyeball on the bandit is a must. Exaclty what i don't have. What i do have (compared with the Mirage F1), seams to be a good boresight radar, that doesn't suffer in the clutter that much and is "quicker" on finding a target with large angular motion. I try my first shot on him, just a short burst, but it;s a miss as he goes just a wee bit under my hood. I try to follow him but i lose sight of him and by the time i reacquire him his already above me. I set up for rolling scissors. Rolling out, pulling up, my vector on him , pulling into him, our roles reverse, now i am down again. Repeating the process a second time, but this time the bandit uses the energy gained from the dive to try and separate. I unload and go after him. My energy dissadvantage is neutralized rapidly in the shallow dive/unloading and are back where we started. Him breaking, me trying to bleed him dry. 3 turns in a row i get my nose on him, but as i am well outside his turn he shakes me off with ease. On the 4th try i give my nose a bit of the vertical in the attempt of gaining some turning space. As i climb a bit above him, the bandit must have seen this and reverses his turn. I roll in and dive on him. As hi pulls up i get bellow him and we are in rolling scissors again. The energy from  the second dive is quite enough to get me saddled on his six. I give him a shor burst that misses. The second burst is from too close to miss. Just a slight pull on the stick, good lead and he's down in flames. 

The secind fight lasted quite a bit longer. At the start of this series of  fights my rating of the "dogfighting" capabilities of these 4 AC would have been 1- 23, 2- 104. 3 -F-4 and 4 the F1. Now i am no longer that sure. Using dive slashes and excessive vertical maneuvers can change the outcome of the fight quite a bit. And what one plane seams to have more of, the other can compensate for with another quality. Based on MY preffered style of flying, the initial rating has somewhat changed. The low endurance and cockpit visibility of the 23 has made it drop to 2nd or 3rd place. It's performance is however still superior to the other AC. I would guess the later versions (especailly the MLD) would have solved the low speed handling problems and would get the MiG back at the top of the list. The 104G takes the top for me. It has a good cockpit visibility, very solid overal performance (second only to the 23) and no great vices when taking it medium or slow speed (considering the competition). Only the F-4 handles the slow speed better, but i still feel safe and confident when i execute a low altitude break in it. The only disadvantage of the F-104 is the endurance, but it can be offset by it's other advantages. The 4th place still goes to the F1, becuase of the "death trap" low altitude/low speed stalling properties and the slow dogfight radar mode. If it wasn't for the stall especially, it would have tied with the 23 and the F-4 for the 2/3rd spot. Overal impression though, when fighting against other planes with eny of these 4, do not turn. Or if you do, do it with a lot of excess energy available, try to get your angles advantage and if you fail, unload and disengage. Repeat if you must, but unless in an F-4, don't stay in the fight for long. Use your energy advantage to extend and dissenage.

That would be all of tonight gentlemen. Safe flying!

[Robert33 2]

@Cougar

Thank you for the DACTs. They are very interesting to say the least especially the Flogger vs Starfighter matchup. Based on the video, it looks like you had the easiest time with the F-104 though the MiG23 is pretty close.

 

@everyone

I've been reading a bit into British aviation and got intrigued with the BAC Lightning. According to the available info on the web, it was the best dogfighter among the 50s interceptors, capable of giving F-104s a run for their money in speed and acceleration, pulling 9Gs as well as still being pointable at low-speeds. There are even accounts that it took down early Eagles in WVR exercises. Any takers into checking how well the Lightning stacks up to its contemporaries from the 50s and some of the planes in the 70s?

[saisran 84]

@Cougar

Thank you for the DACTs. They are very interesting to say the least especially the Flogger vs Starfighter matchup. Based on the video, it looks like you had the easiest time with the F-104 though the MiG23 is pretty close.

 

@everyone

I've been reading a bit into British aviation and got intrigued with the BAC Lightning. According to the available info on the web, it was the best dogfighter among the 50s interceptors, capable of giving F-104s a run for their money in speed and acceleration, pulling 9Gs as well as still being pointable at low-speeds. There are even accounts that it took down early Eagles in WVR exercises. Any takers into checking how well the Lightning stacks up to its contemporaries from the 50s and some of the planes in the 70s?

 

Tried the basic lightning model from TW a while back. Again im not sure bout the FM's accuracy but i couldn't really turn with it any better than the F-104 as we know pulling G's above 430Kias is a sure recipe for a black out.