To the devs: Sneaking up on Scouts without getting noticed

[Olham 164]

JFM wrote in another thread, that it would be great, if one could come down on, or sneak up on a victim, who wouldn't notice him at all;

but that he thought, it might be impossible to program an AI like that.

 

Now I just thought of the old "random generators" I had in my synthesizers. They produced "random decisions", how the sound should be.

Could it perhaps be programmed, that an opponent coming down on a plane, or sneaking up on it, wouldn't be noticed;

by using the method of such a "random generator" - which would offer a 50% (or whatever) chance, that the attacker won't be noticed?

Wouldn't that raise the level of immersion even more again?

[77Scout 3]

I have seen in the various game files where CSF3 has parameters for pilot eyesight, plus airplane files seem to have arcs of vision for pilots and gunners so maybe the blind-spots that a real pilot would have can be simulated for the AI. That would be great.

 

if anyone knows, I would be interested to know if CFS3 does actually model the AI as having eyes that look only in one direction at a time, and if their view is blocked by aircraft and clouds. Or do the AI simply have omni-directional Superman vision?

[von Baur 54]

I don't believe the AI have super vision. More than once I've had enemy scouts pass me by in a position of strength rather than attack. Also, I've managed to stalk opponents and get within meters below and behind without any indication that they've noticed me.

 

 

[Olham 164]

I believe to have noticed, that their vision and attention depends on their tasks.

So they don't seem to be very aware, when they do a strafing or bombing run on a given target.

But right now, some minutes ago, I saw a patrol of Nieuport 24bis crossing high overhead.

Their Labels were still white, which means very often, that they may pass me without notice.

But these guys were on a patrol, and they spotted us and came down to attack.

 

As for clouds, 77Scout, they do not see through clouds - at least, when the cloud setting is on "5"

(which doesn't eat that much resources, by the way).

[Hellshade 110]

I don't want to sneak up on the scouts. I want them to see me...and be scared.

 

Hellshade

[Olham 164]

Okay, Hellshade, okay! If you are one of those guys, who'd paint their fighter red...

But sometimes, some may want to fly like Albert Ball? Or Guynemer - out of the sun!

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

Okay, Hellshade, okay! If you are one of those guys, who'd paint their fighter red...

But sometimes, some may want to fly like Albert Ball?

 

Olham,

 

After seeing his video's, I am convinced that Hellshade does fly like Albert Ball "attack at every opportunity and sod the risk". LOL

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

[Hellshade 110]

Okay, Hellshade, okay! If you are one of those guys, who'd paint their fighter red...

But sometimes, some may want to fly like Albert Ball? Or Guynemer - out of the sun!

 

I want them to be apprehensive the moment they see my plane. I want them to give me begrudging respect as I work my way through the furball, damaging or destroying anything that crosses my path. I want them to feel a shiver of fear as they see me latch onto their 6 and I want the shiver to turn to desperation as they try every trick they know to shake me, but I stay locked on their tail. I want them to know the fear of the Almighty as they hear the first reports of my guns. I want them to know terror and regret for even climbing into the cockpit that day as my rounds shred their flesh and rip into their engine. I want them to feel hopeless as their wreck of a plane tumbles out of the sky, speeding towards their imminent death. Most of all, I want all of his wingman to see it happen. I cannot kill every man, but I can kill their will to fight.

 

I'm sure Winder is programing all of that into P4 as we speak.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Hellshade

[Olham 164]

Okay, now we know what you want - reality is a different matter.

So, we Germans are not so very easily impressed by such performance. Well, maybe a little bit - but we wouldn't admit it.

When I see and read your way of fighting - may I ask: did you ever cross the 17 hour mark?

I guess, your fighting style can only be done in a twin-guns Triplane?

Edited March 10, 2011 by Olham

[shredward 12]

The pen of the bard lives on in our noble Hellshade. Makes you want to run shrieking over the barricade. Bravo Hellshade!!!

 

And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,

Whose limbs were made in England, show us here

The mettle of your pasture; let us swear

That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;

For there is none of you so mean and base,

That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.

I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit, and upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

 

Bravo!!!!

shredward

[Wayfarer 5]

I want them to be apprehensive the moment they see my plane. I want them to give me begrudging respect as I work my way through the furball, damaging or destroying anything that crosses my path. I want them to feel a shiver of fear as they see me latch onto their 6 and I want the shiver to turn to desperation as they try every trick they know to shake me, but I stay locked on their tail. I want them to know the fear of the Almighty as they hear the first reports of my guns. I want them to know terror and regret for even climbing into the cockpit that day as my rounds shred their flesh and rip into their engine. I want them to feel hopeless as their wreck of a plane tumbles out of the sky, speeding towards their imminent death. Most of all, I want all of his wingman to see it happen. I cannot kill every man, but I can kill their will to fight.

 

 

 

I tend towards trying to get us all safely home for tea.

[Hellshade 110]

Okay, now we know what you want - reality is a different matter.

So, we Germans are not so very easily impressed by such performance. Well, maybe a little bit - but we wouldn't admit it.

When I see and read your way of fighting - may I ask: did you ever cross the 17 hour mark?

I guess, your fighting style can only be done in a twin-guns Triplane?

 

Most of my fighting is done in the single gun triplane, good sir. In fact I can't remember the last time I flew a twin gun Sopwith tripIane. I find the twin gun version does not manuever as well and I have learned to make my solitary gun count. Watch the triplane videos and you might be suprised to see how often it is only one gun that I do my damage with. Even a single .30 cal can do more than enough damage in very short bursts if they hit the pilot or the engine, so I get close and make my rounds count.

 

I have only crossed the 17 hour mark once, but that is not always only due to being shot down. More often then not it's because I was making new pilots merely to fly in different phases of the war so I could shoot other videos. Be assured though, I am no Creaghorn. I am certain his pilots average lifespan would be longer than mine.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Hellshade

[Flyby PC 23]

I thought about this, not for OFF, but flying night fighter missions in my Mossie. I wanted to bounce enemies and see them react so I could get close enough to id them visually before opening fire. I had to cheat, and make them friendlies, which let you approach, but didn't react to your attack.

 

I got to thinking, obviously, when you damage a target, you affect how it flies. Naturally, the more damaged it becomes the less able to fly it becomes. Now thinking out the box, if you can alter a planes characteristics by hitting it, couldn't you enhance it's performance, rather than damage it? I'm thinking of a full enemy AI fighter, but it's default manoureability in flight is very restricted UNTIL it gets damaged. One or two hits are sufficient to alter the flight model, making it better, or rather back to the default. That way, your target would appear to be distracted, letting you sneak up, but put a couple of rounds in him and he 'wakes up' to evade you like a demon. In reality, he still sees you coming, but his flight model won't let him evade until he takes a little damage. Follow me?

 

I thought hard about it in CFS3, but it only solves half the problem. The tail gunners still see you in the dark from a mile out. No good.

 

I think it's doable, but I don't know enough about flight models to have a go myself, but now the subject has been raised .....

[Hellshade 110]

I tend towards trying to get us all safely home for tea.

 

Fair enough, but I know only this when I take to the skies:

 

"None of the men I kill today will have me in their sights tomorrow."

 

If I wish to have a better chance at living tomorrow, my duty and my way are clear.

 

Hellshade

[Wayfarer 5]

Fair enough, but I know only this when I take to the skies:

 

"None of the men I kill today will have me in their sights tomorrow."

 

If I wish to have a better chance at living tomorrow, my duty and my way are clear.

 

Hellshade

 

 

My reason for playing it that way is really because I am flying a BE2 on recon/spotting missions, rather than a fighter. I try and fly 'carefully' because I think they would have had to.

When I finish this campaign, though, I would like to start one as a German fighter pilot, from Eindeckers onward. I would fly more aggressively then - although I'll probably be more of a Boelcke than a Voss or a Lothar von Richthofen.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Wayfarer

[+Polovski 425]

As some see already in P3 sometimes you do find those reactions already. Yes it may be possible Olham, we are working on making AI even better for P4 and all these kinds of actions and decisions are being worked on where possible. Once that all works well then yes you have to add randomness.

 

No promises of course for what it will or won't do yet as making good AI is notoriously difficult in sims and games. It has to deal with all possible situations and variable settings/aircraft etc. Also a computer pilot has to appear human too, the fact it's pretty convincing most of the time in OFF most of the time already shows what great work RexH has done but we hope the new stuff will be better :).

[CaptSopwith 18]

As some see already in P3 sometimes you do find those reactions already. Yes it may be possible Olham, we are working on making AI even better for P4 and all these kinds of actions and decisions are being worked on where possible. Once that all works well then yes you have to add randomness.

 

No promises of course for what it will or won't do yet as making good AI is notoriously difficult in sims and games. It has to deal with all possible situations and variable settings/aircraft etc. Also a computer pilot has to appear human too, the fact it's pretty convincing most of the time in OFF most of the time already shows what great work RexH has done but we hope the new stuff will be better :).

 

Sounds great Pol. I've got my AI set to Historical and tend to find that each dogfight is a surprise - I never know from one engagement to the next what kind of situation I'm getting into. Sometimes the AI is easy meat, as seen in my latest flight as Gerhard Roth. Other times I'm very unpleasantly surprised when the AI begins whipping around and filling me full of holes!

 

Also, can I just say that the Devs at OFF never cease to amaze me. Here we are, a group of OFF pilots sitting around posting online and within a few hours there is a member of OBD replying to our thoughts and letting us know that you're already working on what we're sitting here thinking about you. You guys are great.

[Hellshade 110]

My reason for playing it that way is really because I am flying a BE2 on recon/spotting missions, rather than a fighter. I try and fly 'carefully' because I think they would have had to.

When I finish this campaign, though, I would like to start one as a German fighter pilot, from Eindeckers onward. I would fly more aggressively then - although I'll probably be more of a Boelcke than a Voss or a Lothar von Richthofen.

 

My apologies sir. I was "in character" when I responded though I can see now it looked as if I was criticizing your way of flying. Please know that I make no such judgements! I greatly respect those who have the time and patience to fly it "like it really was" back then. That's what's great about OFF. You can choose to fly it in whichever way you find most enjoyable.

 

Hellshade

[Hellshade 110]

As some see already in P3 sometimes you do find those reactions already. Yes it may be possible Olham, we are working on making AI even better for P4 and all these kinds of actions and decisions are being worked on where possible. Once that all works well then yes you have to add randomness.

 

No promises of course for what it will or won't do yet as making good AI is notoriously difficult in sims and games. It has to deal with all possible situations and variable settings/aircraft etc. Also a computer pilot has to appear human too, the fact it's pretty convincing most of the time in OFF most of the time already shows what great work RexH has done but we hope the new stuff will be better :).

 

I remember the first time I fly in P3. For the first time ever, I felt like there were other men in the sky desperately fighting for their lives just as I was. It made it all feel so alive and real. If RexH can improve upon it even more, that would be truly amazing.

 

Hellshade

[Olham 164]

Wow, Hellshade - now you're not an "unsung hero" anymore, after Shredward's ode.

Let a German "hun" with a lesser education ask a question, showing how little he is

touched by culture yet: Is that Shakespeare?

 

Wayfarer, home for tea & crumpets is understandable after the cold up there.

If you have no fighter experience yet, I would recommend to you to start in a scout

easier to fly and survive in: the Albatros D.II, Sept. 1916, Jasta 2.

The "Eini" is something for experienced pilots - or for the very patient learners.

Pol, great to hear you do have these thoughts and intentions. I wish you luck

with getting it to work that way.

And yes: Rex Hannover surely has already done a GREAT job!

He must in fact be the one with the least foreseeable work, with all that interaction.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Olham

[+Polovski 425]

Thanks guys we needed to big up RexH some :)

[Hellshade 110]

RexH

 

[Wayfarer 5]

My apologies sir. I was "in character" when I responded though I can see now it looked as if I was criticizing your way of flying. Please know that I make no such judgements! I greatly respect those who have the time and patience to fly it "like it really was" back then. That's what's great about OFF. You can choose to fly it in whichever way you find most enjoyable.

 

Hellshade

 

Hellshade, absolutely no need for apologies! I think it's one of the strengths of OFF that it promotes flying with a certain 'character' , and that we have different attitudes within the same game. I'm sure that's not unrealistic. I was just amused by the contrast of your statement and the thought of me scuttling fearfully about, and trying to shepherd my wingmen around!

 

In other sims, to a certain extent, I tended just to see how many things I could shoot at until my ammo ran out. After introducing a friend to flight sims, however, I was impressed by his more realistic approach and dedication to learning the ins and outs of the game (if anyone visits the SOH CFS3 forum, it's 'Beau Brummie', champion of Coastal Command and the Mosquito). It made me look around for a sim that seemed worth playing in that way ,and it's the reason I chose OFF rather than RoF. I can spend an hour not shooting at anything and still feel totally absorbed.

 

Regarding the original posting, I think it would definitely be good if you could be rewarded for patient stalking of an enemy machine by sometimes acheiving total surprise, but also knowing that you may get a wily, veteran crew who might be pretty lethal. I understand from Polovski's post that there is a certain amount of this already, although always being the target I never really see it!

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I want them to be apprehensive the moment they see my plane. I want them to give me begrudging respect as I work my way through the furball, damaging or destroying anything that crosses my path. I want them to feel a shiver of fear as they see me latch onto their 6 and I want the shiver to turn to desperation as they try every trick they know to shake me, but I stay locked on their tail. I want them to know the fear of the Almighty as they hear the first reports of my guns. I want them to know terror and regret for even climbing into the cockpit that day as my rounds shred their flesh and rip into their engine. I want them to feel hopeless as their wreck of a plane tumbles out of the sky, speeding towards their imminent death. Most of all, I want all of his wingman to see it happen. I cannot kill every man, but I can kill their will to fight.

 

I'm sure Winder is programing all of that into P4 as we speak.

 

Hussah!...a Fighter Pilot after my own heart!...put the fear of death in the Bastards

[Olham 164]

Hussah!...a Fighter Pilot after my own heart!...put the fear of death in the Bastards

 

No way - you can't place it in our hearts, as we are heartless!

The only other place would be our stomachs - but they are already filled with Sauerkraut and Bratwurst.

Mmuahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!