The AI Gun Range Debate

[Javito1986 14]

Here's my current workshop settings:

 

 

The RSS standard for AI gun range is 'Easy', and this is the only realm in which I divert from RSS because, as you can see, I fly with Normal on. Reason being that with Main Guns set to 'less accurate' I don't like the idea of limiting the AI's gunnery too much, and I agree with what Bullethead said a while back about exaggerating the inaccuracy of these planes.

 

But at the same time I just got made swiss freaking cheese by a DV firing from above and behind at 300 meters. Least I think it was meters. Whatever that numerical measurement next to the object name when you have labels turned on. In the heat of the moment I expressed frustration at his accuracy.

 

(I believe the exact words were "HOW THE F*** ARE YOU ABLE TO HIT ME YOU GERMAN SON OF A *****! GRAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!)

 

But in retrospect I'm not sure if the shot was that hard to make. I was below him after all, and going slower as I was just coming out of a turn, and I hadn't seen him. Now, I've made similar diving attacks and have set fire to enemy machines under very similar circumstances, but I never fire from as far away as he did. And he pummeled me, I was hit over and over all around the kite's fuselage and tail.

 

That said, he didn't hit anything vital. No meat or metal, I remained in the air at full engine power and was able to make it home, though I couldn't make much altitude and she was sluggish as all hell (this is an SE5 by the way).

 

Still, it troubles me! He was excruciatingly accurate from that range, and frankly with the amount of bullets I was hit with I am amazed I didn't light on fire right then and there. And I know I would never, ever, ever shoot from that distance. I would land hits, sure, but only a few, no way I could bring the pain the way he did with me.

 

Still, as I said, he hit nothing vital which is expected. I dunno. Thinking about changing to Easy AI Gun Range for the duration of this campaign, lest I lose my favorite pilot under potentially 'gamey' circumstances. Or maybe I just need to keep my damn eyes open next time. What do you all think?

 

 

 

EDIT: Ignore the 'hard ground accuracy', I'd just finished balloon busting when I took this workshop and always crank it up for those.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Javito1986

[Lewie 7]

What I notice is that the obs gunners seem to have an excellent aiming ability with distance. Tried stalking two Roland CII's in QC and they repeatedly hit me from well over 900 feet away, and this while they were climbing and diving to enable their gunners to get a bead on me while I stalked from underneath.

 

In the same situation where I'm the obs gunner I'm lucky if I can get a few hits on an attacking plane coming from my six and above. Seems to me like most sims I've played before, that the AI gunnery of the attackers is a bit 'ubered'. I remember from a custom mission I made for Richthofen's Skies, that the 88mm German Flak guns were popping British Obs balloons from over four miles away. It was funny to start off for a flight over the front and find a bunch of your side's balloons all in the process of burning or bursting into flame.

[Hasse Wind 46]

I've had at easy for a long time. It feels more realistic that way. And it certainly doesn't make the sim too easy!

 

Lewie, I think you won't be seeing most of the correct behaviour of the aircraft and AI in OFF if you fly it through CFS3. The OFF campaign manager does many tricks to improve things from CFS3. I don't even know how many, only that CFS3 and OFF P3 can hardly be mentioned together in the same sentence. The difference is really big.

[Bullethead 12]

I've used the short AI gun range setting since that long-ago day when, despite being in a hard turn, I was shot completely to pieces in a split-second from over 400m.

 

IMHO, if you're maneuvering unpredictably all the time, and the AI is still nailing you with no problem from 200m and beyond, you need to tweak your settings. I'd start with range and if you're still having the problem, then adjust accuracy.

 

NOTE: by "maneuvering unpredictably", I mean going left, right, up, and down and at varying rates, either to make yourself a difficult target or while chasing an enemy who's a difficult target. Turning at a constant rate in the same direction for a long period is no harder to hit than if you're fliying straight and level, so that doesn't count.

 

 

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Yuppers, I have also been running with the AI range and accuracy cranked down in an effort to minimize the Robo Gunners. Repeatedly getting hit that hard from hundreds of yards away just isn't right, in any reality.

 

.

[Lewie 7]

I've had at easy for a long time. It feels more realistic that way. And it certainly doesn't make the sim too easy!

 

Lewie, I think you won't be seeing most of the correct behaviour of the aircraft and AI in OFF if you fly it through CFS3. The OFF campaign manager does many tricks to improve things from CFS3. I don't even know how many, only that CFS3 and OFF P3 can hardly be mentioned together in the same sentence. The difference is really big.

 

Yeah I know, Pol has reminded me that the two sims are different. What I'm noticing is that the OFF planes in CFS3 are flying about like I would expect them to fly in real life. I've done a few FM's in my flight sim mod experience, and they seem pretty close to fidelity under CFS3. So I'm expecting that the change to OFF will not be that big a difference.

 

It's all good..

 

How many people actually have run OFF planes in CFS3 yet? Don't take my word as gospel, but between Targetware, SDOE-WWI, and this sim I'm finding not too big a difference in level speed, climb rate and maneuverability in the same kites. I'm sure that the way the AI is applied between CFS3 and OFF has substantial algorithm differences. But the game engine is based on CFS3's base engine. I don't think that the gunnery AI has much changed though, at times it feels a lot like attacking a two seater in RedBaron3D, the AI's accuracy at distances of over 700~900 feet is pretty damn good.

 

And I'm not the only one mentioning this about the two seater obs gunnery accuracy in OFF.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I'm glad this thread has come up. I am currently working on two mods that hopefully will take care of both of these problems. One mod will allow the player to adjust the bullet spread for the main front-guns so they are slightly less accurate under both the normal and easy settings. When using this mod, you should probably set the AI gun range to "normal" instead of "easy." That way, they might start shooting at you from farther away, but they will be less likely to hit you, especially at great distance.

 

The other mod is a very small adjustment to the AI obs-gunner so that his accuracy is turned down just a bit. The human obs-gunner is not affected by this mod.

[Javito1986 14]

I'm glad this thread has come up. I am currently working on two mods that hopefully will take care of both of these problems. One mod will allow the player to adjust the bullet spread for the main front-guns so they are slightly less accurate under both the normal and easy settings. When using this mod, you should probably set the AI gun range to "normal" instead of "easy." That way, they might start shooting at you from farther away, but they will be less likely to hit you, especially at great distance.

 

The other mod is a very small adjustment to the AI obs-gunner so that his accuracy is turned down just a bit. The human obs-gunner is not affected by this mod.

 

 

 

 

This is great news, hear hear. I'm looking forward to trying out your alterations sir

[Fortiesboy 3]

I've had at easy for a long time. It feels more realistic that way. And it certainly doesn't make the sim too easy!

 

 

 

This is quite right. I've always flown at "easy" - IMO When it comes to AI gun range it doesn't mean easy at all. It means more realistic.

 

The normal or hard means only that the AI fires and hits you from further away - around 400 metres. And that's daft!.

Always was a gripe re the original game that this figure is totally unrealistic. All the evidence i've seen says that they fired very close to each other - very close - less than 100 metres, more like 50!.

 

So, if you want realism (sic ) then select easy AI gun range.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Heck! I was all ready to upload my forward gun mod to the Admins when I realized I left my flashdrive on my office desk. I'll try to remember to bring it home tomorrow.

[Javito1986 14]

Hurry hurry! Each day you delay makes it more likely my pilot will never live to see your mod. Flying is dangerous you know

[shredward 12]

Heck! I was all ready to upload my forward gun mod to the Admins when I realized I left my flashdrive on my office desk. I'll try to remember to bring it home tomorrow.

 

Now that's what we like to hear! Working on OFF mods at the office. Attaboy!

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

And I work in a bar, no less!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, not really.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Here it is, chaps. My first (and I hope only) version of my HPW Front Guns mod, now available for download in the download section of the forum here: http://combatace.com/topic/63947-hpw-front-guns/ Here is the complete readme file, which I recommend everyone read before attempting to install the mod:

 

Readme File 30/3/2011

------------

HPW Front Guns Bullet Spread Mod

 

by Herr Prop Wasche

 

Zip file contents:

 

HPW Front Guns mod folder and subfolders

HPWFrontGunsReadme.txt

 

Mod Description: The HPW Front Guns Bullet Spread mod adjusts the Accurate, Normal, and Less Accurate settings in the Main Guns selection box located in Workshop to make the front guns for both humans and AI somewhat less accurate, resulting in fewer kills per mission at each difficulty setting. The following chart gives the player an idea of the differences between the settings in the unmodded game and in the mod. Higher values indicate a wider bullet spread pattern, and thus a less accurate bullet stream.

 

Bullet Spread (OFF)

Accurate: .20

Normal: .50

Less Accurate: 1.00

 

Bullet Spread (HPWFGBS mod)

Accurate: .40

Normal: .75

Less Accurate: 1.25

 

Basically, this mod gives the player more options in his or her selection of bullet spread. In terms of bullet accuracy, the OFF Accurate setting allows for the most accurate shooting, while the HPWFGBS mod Less Accurate setting allows for the least accurate shooting. Notice that the Normal setting in the HPWFGBS mod is exactly between the Normal and Less Accurate settings in the standard game. I have found that this setting best achieves the goal of making the game more challenging while not excessively handicapping the AI's ability to shoot down opposing aircraft. The Less Accurate setting in the mod is for those very accurate shooters who desire a particular challenge. If you are currently shooting down more than 2 or 3 opposing aircraft per mission, you may wish to use this difficulty setting. Note, however, that your AI wingmates as well as your AI enemies will also have more difficulty shooting anyone down at this setting! Perhaps in P4 we can wish for separate front guns settings for the human and AI pilots, respectively. Hint, hint!

 

####EXTREMELY IMPORTANT####

INSTALLATION: This mod should be used ONLY with Jonesoft's Generic Mod Enabler. ALSO, BECAUSE THIS MOD ALTERS SOME WORKSHOP SETTINGS, ANOTHER COPY OF THE JSGME PROGRAM MUST *FIRST* BE INSTALLED INSIDE THE PARENT OBDSoftware FOLDER--NOT THE CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields FOLDER!! THIS WILL CREATE A SEPERATE MODS FOLDER LOCATED INSIDE THE OBDSoftware FOLDER. COPY OR EXTRACT THE HPW FRONT GUNS FOLDER AND SUBFOLDERS INTO THIS NEW MODS FOLDER!! To activate the mod, you must run the JSGME program LOCATED INSIDE YOUR OBDSoftware FOLDER and then click on the HPW Front Guns file. Do not worry about having two copies of JSGME installed in OFF. I have tested this out and it does not seem to cause any issues with either OFF or my system. Just make sure you copy or extract the gun mod to the correct copy of JSGME, located inside the OBDSoftware folder.

####EXTREMELY IMPORTANT####

 

VERSION HISTORY

 

Initial release

 

------------

Thank you for downloading and using this mod. I hope that it adds to your enjoyment of Over Flanders Fields and HITR. I would again like to express my thanks and appreciation to OBD Software for their help and encouragement in the making of this mod. Of course, with the exception of the small tweaks contained herein, all work remains the sole work and property of OBD software. If you have any questions or experience any problems with the installation of this mod, you can reach me at www.combatace.com at the Over Flanders Field forum.

 

For the mod to work properly, you MUST follow the install instructions EXACTLY. Note you will need to install a SEPARATE copy of JSGME inside the main OBDSoftware folder and then extract the mod to the MODS folder inside that directory for the mod to work. If you have any questions about this or are unsure how to proceed, please contact me immediately and I will try to walk you through the process. Cheers!

Edited March 31, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

If you thought that one mod was enough, here is a second! This is my version of a rear gun mod, to slightly tone down the accuracy of those blasted dead-eye AI observers in the two-seaters. You can get the mod here: http://combatace.com/topic/63948-hpw-rear-guns/ Here is the readme file (please read carefully):

 

Readme File 31/3/2011

------------

HPW Rear Guns Bullet Spread Mod

 

by Herr Prop Wasche

 

Zip file contents:

 

HPW Rear Guns mod folder and subfolders

HPWRearGunsReadme.txt

 

Mod Description: The HPW Rear Guns Bullet Spread mod adjusts the Less Accurate setting in the Rear Guns selection box located in Workshop to make the rear guns for the AI observer somewhat less accurate than it is in the stock game. Please note that this mod does NOT alter either the Normal or the Accurate settings for the AI observer, on the theory that users who prefer these settings are masochists already who do not wish the bullet spread for the AI to be watered down any further. Instead, this mod is intended for those who feel the AI at the Less Accurate setting in the stock game is still just a little too accurate.

 

####EXTREMELY IMPORTANT INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS####

This mod should be used ONLY with Jonesoft's Generic Mod Enabler. ALSO, BECAUSE THIS MOD ALTERS SOME WORKSHOP SETTINGS, ANOTHER COPY OF THE JSGME PROGRAM MUST *FIRST* BE INSTALLED INSIDE THE PARENT OBDSoftware FOLDER--NOT THE CFSWW1 Over Flanders Fields FOLDER!! THIS WILL CREATE A SEPERATE MODS FOLDER LOCATED INSIDE THE OBDSoftware FOLDER. COPY OR EXTRACT THE HPW REAR GUNS FOLDER AND SUBFOLDERS INTO THIS NEW MODS FOLDER!! To activate the mod, you must run the JSGME program LOCATED INSIDE YOUR OBDSoftware FOLDER and then click on the HPW Rear Guns file. Do not worry about having two copies of JSGME installed in OFF. I have tested this out and it does not seem to cause any issues with either OFF or my system. Just make sure you copy or extract the gun mod to the correct copy of JSGME, located inside the OBDSoftware folder.

####EXTREMELY IMPORTANT INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS####

 

VERSION HISTORY

 

Initial release

 

Again, please, please, please read the installation instructions before attempting to install the mod. Good luck and i hope you enjoy using the mod.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[Javito1986 14]

HPW, as I note in the thread I just started, I just christened your new mod! Got bounced by an Albatros again like I did at the start of this thread, but this time he fired from 100m or less and shot me down fair and square. Was using Easy AI Gun Range but -normal- main gun accuracy with your mod installed. He got in close and sent me down with two bursts. Can't complain, he did it right

 

Thanks for fixing this issue! No more robo Huns, that was the most legitimate bounce as I've seen yet in OFF.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Javito1986

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

With all due modesty, I will wait on some more combat reports before I claim to have fixed this issue. But I am very happy to hear your initial report!

[+Polovski 457]

It's great to see mods but just to add a little bit of caution, with all this stuff a LOT of testing in all sorts of scenarios is required before you can say X is better than Y in the sim. There are a trillion variables. Just to clarify the distance the AI engage isn't altered by bullet "spread" in any way.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Gotcha, Pol.

 

Yes, the distance the AI engages is controlled by a separate setting in Workshop.

 

To clarify, I make no claims that my mod is "better" than the stock game or any other mod. I only offer it as an alternative for those who wish to try something new.