Two questions....

[Guest BeachAV8R]

Hello! I searched the forum using some keywords, but I couldn't come up with what I was looking for.

 

Can anyone point me to a post or a detailed description of how the Strike Fighters 2 campaigns work? Not necessarily the technical details, but I'm interested to read about how (if) the campaign tracks friendly and enemy resources, and how the tide of the battle works, and what influence the player has on the overall scheme of things.

 

Second question. On aircraft carriers, after landing is there anyway to reactive the catapults? I know some other sims you could taxi up to the catapult track, lower your launch bar, and it would reset the cat for launch (I think it was Hornet Korea that did that..and maybe JF-18 in multi-player?)..

 

Thanks..(I did try searching..honest!)..

 

BeachAV8R

[Fubar512 1,350]

If you spot yourself on the cat, it will reset, or at least, it used to in SF1....I haven't tried it in SF2.

[+malibu43 142]

Hello! I searched the forum using some keywords, but I couldn't come up with what I was looking for.

 

Can anyone point me to a post or a detailed description of how the Strike Fighters 2 campaigns work? Not necessarily the technical details, but I'm interested to read about how (if) the campaign tracks friendly and enemy resources, and how the tide of the battle works, and what influence the player has on the overall scheme of things.

 

Second question. On aircraft carriers, after landing is there anyway to reactive the catapults? I know some other sims you could taxi up to the catapult track, lower your launch bar, and it would reset the cat for launch (I think it was Hornet Korea that did that..and maybe JF-18 in multi-player?)..

 

Thanks..(I did try searching..honest!)..

 

BeachAV8R

 

The campaign one is a tough one. There used be at least of description of what all the variables are and very basic description of what they do in the SF1 Knowledge Base, but I think the link was broken at some point. I have a pretty good grasp of what variables need to be tweaked in order to accomplish certain things. But, TK has always been very vague about how supply levels and the outcomes of player missions impact the campaign - basically always saying that the game takes them into consideration, but not exactly how or to what extent. I'd rather not sit and try to write out everything I know, but if you have some specific questions I can try to answer them here or in PM.

[+Baltika 84]

Quite a bit of detailed info re supply variables here, from TK:-

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB3w/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5089

[Guest BeachAV8R]

Thanks for that link Baltika - that does shed a little bit of light on some of what is going on behind the scenes.

 

Malibu - I completely understand... :) I'll ask a couple more questions and if you know of anything off the top of your head great..if not, no worries.

 

I've always enjoyed the grand scheme of playing dynamic campaigns - and to be truthful, I always thought Enemy Engaged had a better campaign system than Falcon 4 (with the exception of ground troop movements). I liked that EECH had a large scale war going on that you could actually eavesdrop on (using the multiple camera options), and I liked that you could actually see things like the cargo planes dropping supplies on FARPS, inserting troops, and vehicle "generator" buildings churning out tanks, choppers, and planes. While the campaign wasn't perfect (you could "game the game" by knocking out the generator buildings), it was very well done overall.

 

Falcon 4 seemed to have a bit more of a voodoo math campaign that struck me as sort of arbitrary sometimes. But perhaps because so much was going on. It seemed that EECH was less ambitious, but did less better than Falcon 4 did "more more poorly".. If that makes any sense.

 

So the reason I was asking about the SF2 campaigns (I haven't started any yet) is that I was interested in knowing how the dynamic campaigns will be compared to those other sims. I've always fantasized about a "set place" dynamic campaign in which nearly all of the units are already on the map in some way shape or form, and that every piece is accounted for and taken into account (destroyed, damaged, repairing, operational) as the campaign progresses. It would be nice if an enemy airbase with two squadrons of MiGs on it only had those assets with maybe a small % resupply as the campaign progresses. It is always nice to see progress (or retreat) in a dynamic campaign that seems to jibe with what your mission results have been. I realize it is a hard thing to balance..being a big part of a smaller conflict, or a smaller part of a bigger conflict. I thought EECH got the balance almost perfect.

 

So I'm just wondering if ground troops move, enemy airbases can be taken over or at least destroyed, and how the whole supply chain works in SF2. I know I can just wait and see what happens, but I'm a curious cat.

 

Sorry for the long post.. :)

 

BeachAV8R

[MigBuster 2,879]

Heres a very quick write up I put on SImHQ:

 

 

 

Its not a real time loop - and does not have the diversity and amount of objects active on that massive scale - but it is a persistant world and has a lot of details the developer only recently let on - things like warehouses and parked aircraft get counted as supply and A/C loss etc.

 

So for example on the first mission in one campaign my airbase got bombed and I think the tower was never repaired during the whole campaign.

 

 

Each campaign squadron has a set of details to give you some idea - the tank units have details like this too:

 

[AirUnit002]

AircraftType=F-4E

Squadron=7TFS

ForceID=1

Nation=USAF

RetireDate=8/1972

DefaultTexture=USAFCamo1

BaseArea=Takhli RTAFB

BaseMoveChance=0

RandomChance=100

MaxAircraft=16

StartAircraft=16

MaxPilots=16

StartPilots=16

Experience=100

Morale=100

Supply=50

 

 

and you will sometimes get upgraded to a later jet, or get later weapons as the years roll on due to supply and game level.

 

The persistant world is more obvious in shorter campaigns like you find in the more historical SF2: Israel - and things like in 1967 your first missions will be classed as surprise attacks.

 

You will get moved around to different airbases - especially if one gets over run - 3 of the games have opposing tank battles and these days you will often fly over other tank battles going on.

 

The basic in game map shows the changing demarcation line depending on how well each others ground forces are doing - this is linked to a degree to how well you do in your missions - but not always - if you are doing A-A you might shoot down the required number of jets - but the friendly CAS flight was shot down and the enemy tanks won anyway (Or the friendly unit was too weak).

 

Sometimes you get replacement pilots - sometimes you really need them - other times not so much - depends on era and a/c you use.

 

So to summarise - the missions may have the same roles as single missions (CAS/intercept/CAP etc) but you are fighting a continuous war.

 

SF2:Vietnam does not have the large scale ground battles in the stock campaign - so in that sense it is more like a set of single missions - even though you still have a persistent world the missions are too far apart to notice - in that you have limited and aimless objectives apart from to stay alive - kinda like the real thing I guess.

 

 

You can of course modify the campaigns to add units different A/c etc etc if you so wish.

 

 

 

To add to that - each ground unit and squadron has a supply level (percentage) that varies on what is destroyed or how well things are going - so for example taking out a warehouse is supposed to reduce the supply level - but how it is reduced and if this affects all air and ground units I dont know myself.

Also yes and yes to airbases getting captured and ground units moving - the ground units only normally move if they win a battle, or if their supply etc is high enough then they sometimes advance to an area not defended by opposing ground units.

Edited August 1, 2011 by MigBuster

[+Baltika 84]

Hi Beach,

 

I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the amount of detail you can cram into an SF2 campaign.

 

The engine does all of the things you describe in your post above, keeping track of all ground units and air units for the life of the campaign, their supply levels (both material and equipment) and locations (air units on airbases, ground units on the various strategic nodes defined in your campaign_data.ini file). The frontline is truly dynamic, and airbases and nodes can change hands as combat ebbs and flows.

 

Player success in missions is factored in. If you overfly an enemy airbase and find his Migs lined up on the ground, take them out, as those assets will be lost to that unit and will have to be replaced when the overall supply level allows. Enemy air activity noticeably drops if you wipe out a unit's air assets on the ground.

 

Likewise, player success or failure in CAS missions will usually determine the outcome of a ground assault/defence - although not always, the relative strengths of the ground units and their respective equipment types also come into play. As a rule of thumb, don't lay off knocking out enemy tanks just because the tower calls a mission success - again, ground unit strength is recorded, so, the more tanks you take out in each sortie, the weaker that enemy unit will be in future campaign missions. This is true even if you get a mission fail.

 

The campaign engine tracks supply at FORCE and unit level. Likewise morale. If you knock out enemy trucks in Armed Recon, supply levels for the enemy Force drop. Replacement equipment (planes, tanks) and pilots are determined by overall and unit supply levels. Unit sorties are determined by supply and morale for both ground and air units, although the player unit always flies, for obvious reasons. Your unit can be retired if losses are too great.

 

The post I directed you to over at TW makes it clear that the campaign groundwar is divided into phases. An offensive phase only begins when the overall force supply level is greater than the SupplyForOffensive= value. Whether a frontline ground unit actually makes an attack is determined by its own unit supply and morale values.

 

I have found that tweaking supply and morale levels, especially of ground units, can force historical outcomes regardless of player success or otherwise. I have an old SFP1 WW2 Burma campaign posted here where the Allies will be overrun, no matter how many Allied missions you succeed in. Likewise, you can set things up so player success or loss will determine the outcome - as most of the stock campaigns do.

 

Also, you can rotate air units in and out of service (this was added in WoV). You can set equipment upgrades for long campaigns, so you start flying one type and upgrade, dependent on supply levels. You can also specify "Known Aces" for player and AI air units, then fight them in air combat, or fly as their wingman - that was added for the WW1 First Eagles, but the code has been implemented across SF1 & SF2.

 

If it all seems rather vague, it's because all of these variables seem to be tweaked in the campaign.dll which is hard-coded and unlockable, but which also seems to be adjusted by TK with each patch/upgrade of the core engine. One of the most interesting things for me in each new release (full game, EP or whatever) is to look at the new stock campaign_data.ini files to see what new flags have been added, and to try to work out what those new variables do. As is always the way, we learn by doing.

 

In short, my view is that TK's dynamic campaign engine is vastly under-rated, but then as I started out modding by tweaking campaign files and have done a stack of historical and fictional campaigns over the years, I am probably biased

 

Like malibu says, fire away with any questions and we'll do our best to help out.

 

Slainte!

 

Baltika

Edited August 2, 2011 by Baltika

[Guest BeachAV8R]

That is all great information guys..and very heartening to hear there is quite a bit going on in the campaign system. I can't wait to get started!

 

Regards!

 

BeachAV8R

[+malibu43 142]

...

I have found that tweaking supply and morale levels, especially of ground units, can force historical outcomes regardless of player success or otherwise.

...

 

Baltika

 

Hmmm... I've never really played with ground unit moral. That's good to know for the always-challenging-to-get-just-right ground wars in the SF2V expansion pack campaigns!

 

PS - someone needs to combine Baltika and MigBuster's posts and put them in the KB ASAP! Way too much good info here to not have saved there.

Edited August 2, 2011 by malibu43

[+Baltika 84]

Tons of stuff in the SFP1/WoX mission and campaign building archives. No doubt, use with caution for SF2, but the series is evolutionary, so it tends to be that more variables are added with each release/update. Extract the stock campaign_data.ini files with each new game and run through to see what new flags are defined.

 

http://combatace.com/topic/31321-how-do-you-make-a-red-flyable-campaign/page__hl__baltika

 

http://combatace.com/topic/33483-setting-aircraft-types/page__p__208580__hl__baltika__fromsearch__1#entry208580

 

http://combatace.com/topic/27549-question-about-strategic-nodes/page__p__152332__hl__baltika__fromsearch__1#entry152332

 

http://combatace.com/topic/20489-ground-units-in-campaigns/page__p__88545__hl__baltika__fromsearch__1#entry88545

 

 

And at TW:-

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB3w/viewtopic.php?t=5218

 

 

Enjoy!

[Guest BeachAV8R]

If you spot yourself on the cat, it will reset, or at least, it used to in SF1....I haven't tried it in SF2.

 

Hmm..it either doesn't work in SF2..or I'm doing something wrong.

 

I've tried putting on the brakes, lowering the hook, raising the hook..moving around to different spots, but I can't seem to get the catapult to reengage after landing aboard the carrier. Is only one of the catapults active? Maybe I'm going to the wrong one..

 

 

 

Regards..

BeachAV8R

[Guest BeachAV8R]

While I still haven't found out how to reset on the catapult..I did see this, which I thought was going to be a problem until I saw that airplanes "despawn" once they land on the carrier. I guess that is why you won't see a populated aircraft carrier as aircraft recover huh? LOL..I thought I was going to see a 4-plane pileup in the landing area when I saw the tight spacing on these guys. They must all fly for Southwest in their off time..

 

 

BeachAV8R

[+malibu43 142]

I have never been able to find a way to re-engage the catapult after landing.

[MigBuster 2,879]

Didnt think you could - but never looked into it really - the Esc key is of preference to me instead of accidentally taxiing off the carrier and ruining all that hard work