Option for RNZAF's new strike fighter

[MAKO69 186]

True however it is nearly the same price as an F-16 and is not nearly as proven plus production of current orders will not start till 2013 so an order placed in the near future would not be able to be filled for some time.

 

I think that the F-16 is a great option, however I am looking at it from the cost saving in the long run. 2-3 squads of F-16 C/D would be great true the support and spare parts are there. The initial cost of the TA/F-50 is very similar (Factory tech support only 1/4 a world away as to 1/2 a world away), but long term costs would most definitely be less expensive than the full size Falcon. I would suggest a proposal of 12 F-16C 4 F-16D for 75 Squadron a mix of new and lower timed pre-owned airframes. 10 F-50 4 T/A-50 for 2 squadron. 8 T/A-50 for 14 squadron.

[+dtmdragon 2,693]

I have a funny feeling we aren’t going to see eye to eye on the TA/F-50! lol. In my opinion is simply isn’t suited to the roles the RNZAF requires. I'm still going with the one/ one and a half Squadrons of F-16C/D

I think that the F-16 is a great option, however I am looking at it from the cost saving in the long run. 2-3 squads of F-16 C/D would be great true the support and spare parts are there. The initial cost of the TA/F-50 is very similar (Factory tech support only 1/4 a world away as to 1/2 a world away), but long term costs would most definitely be less expensive than the full size Falcon. I would suggest a proposal of 12 F-16C 4 F-16D for 75 Squadron a mix of new and lower timed pre-owned airframes. 10 F-50 4 T/A-50 for 2 squadron. 8 T/A-50 for 14 squadron.

[JediMaster 451]

The idea that a used aircraft would have to serve as long as a new one isn't logical. If you want ones that will last for decades, you buy new. But if you want to save money now, you buy used, then replaced them sooner (within 20 yrs) when perhaps the latest 4.5 gen fighters show up on the market only slightly used as F-35s/Typhoons/Rafales replace them.

 

No one buys a used car and expects to get 10 yrs out of it when new cars have trouble getting 10 yrs!

[MAKO69 186]

The idea that a used aircraft would have to serve as long as a new one isn't logical. If you want ones that will last for decades, you buy new. But if you want to save money now, you buy used, then replaced them sooner (within 20 yrs) when perhaps the latest 4.5 gen fighters show up on the market only slightly used as F-35s/Typhoons/Rafales replace them.

 

No one buys a used car and expects to get 10 yrs out of it when new cars have trouble getting 10 yrs!

 

 

As I said in an earlier entry, "the RNZAF could up the initial unit number by leasing 2nd hand F-16s in the begining to get the combat wing up and running, then swap out the lend/leased older falcons while the newer ones are being built/delivered." Thats what I was saying. The Italian Airforce did this while waiting for the Tyhpoon.

 

You can't compare apples to oranges a car is nothing like an aircraft let alone a combat aircraft, don't go there because the US air arm as well as many others have proved many types/airframes remain viable for decades, even after the plane should have been retired. They have made the unlogical, logical.

 

P.S. My main ride is an 02 Toyota PU that I purchased in late 01. As of right now I plan on getting 8-10 more years out of it. (I would feel comfortable buying my truck now used as my mechanic offers to buy it every time I'm in for an oil change). My other car is an American made 00. My wife has a 2012 Buick. (We shopped all makes for comparable vehicles. The US made Buick was the best option and it felt great buying American)

 

 

More Americans buying used cars

 

Avg age of american car 10.8 yrs

Edited April 7, 2012 by MAKO69

[JediMaster 451]

That is my point. You don't buy a 10 yr old car and expect it to last 10 years when you also expect a new car to last just 10 years. While transports and bombers can last generations, fighters can't. At least not and stay capable of pulling 8Gs or more. Of course you can rebuild them for a lot, bringing your final total up to like 75% of the cost of a new plane for what is effectively a new plane. Like the USMC's H-1 program, where it was deemed more effective to build over half of them new than to just upgrade old ones.

As always, it depends on what NZ wants to do with its planes. If it's antishipping primarily, just arm the P-3s better. If those are too slow, buy some P-8s.

 

BTW...is that Buick really American? Or was it made in Canada or Mexico? I don't consider it "buying American" just because the CEO lives in the US. There are cars like the Camry that are more American than many so-called American cars.

[MAKO69 186]

That is my point. You don't buy a 10 yr old car and expect it to last 10 years when you also expect a new car to last just 10 years. While transports and bombers can last generations, fighters can't. At least not and stay capable of pulling 8Gs or more. Of course you can rebuild them for a lot, bringing your final total up to like 75% of the cost of a new plane for what is effectively a new plane. Like the USMC's H-1 program, where it was deemed more effective to build over half of them new than to just upgrade old ones.

As always, it depends on what NZ wants to do with its planes. If it's antishipping primarily, just arm the P-3s better. If those are too slow, buy some P-8s.

 

BTW...is that Buick really American? Or was it made in Canada or Mexico? I don't consider it "buying American" just because the CEO lives in the US. There are cars like the Camry that are more American than many so-called American cars.

 

 

What about the Greek Airforce, it seems to work for them a combination of new and pre-owned combat strike fighters to include the F-16,and these 2 which they started to receive back in the mid 70's F-4E, and A-7 not all these planes were new build for them. Turkey had new build F-4 and received ex-USAF and German Phantoms in the late 80s and early 90s with a large percentage still flying today with a good amount of F-4E 2020 Terminators which they predict will be flying at least to 2020 and beyond. Then there is the United States 1 example the A-10. The purpouse of this thread was to propose to the NZ Govt a costly way to get back into the strike fighter cockpit.

Look back at my first entry. Now you can propose buying new It would be great, but it would be less expensive to get in and running with both new and used and swap out the older ones for newer right?

 

 

The Buick was assembled in Delta Township, Michigan

[JediMaster 451]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that as a rule of thumb, used fighters don't last as long as new fighters, so you replace them more often.

As for those Turkish F-4s, they've been upgraded several times now to make them still worthy, so it's not the same as a used car there. Not unless you needed to replace the engine, transmission, dashboard, and rebuild the suspension when you got it, that is! To stay worthwhile you need to invest in them constantly and older ones might require more costly upgrades than newer ones.

The best bet is "slightly used" planes, things like early model Gripens or Typhoons that are being replaced by late models and sold off by their countries to keep the force sizes right and help fund the all-late model force upgrade. With F-35s coming out soon there will be a flood of late-model F-16s and Hornets out there as well as the existing early-model supply already there.

 

The bottom line is you pay for a certain capability one way or another. What mission capable rate are you looking for? What missions will they do, and what requirements on range, time, and force on target are you looking at? I can see that from one POV NZ is playing it smart by saving the money now so that when they think they DO need them they'll be able to get them fresh without concern about existing supplies matching. Of course, that means they're starting from ground zero and it will cost more at first. Planes, weapons, spares, support equipment, training for air and ground crews, etc. So from the other side of it they'll be starting in a big hole which means there will be a big gap between the decision to "go" and IOC.

[MAKO69 186]

OK peeps,

 

I would like to start this topic. If you were able to lobby the NZ Govt on behalf of the RNZAF what platform would you recomened and what facts, statements, and arguments would you make to back up your choice. A little history if you are not familiar with the RNZAF they have no strike fighter capability. In 2001 the Labour Government removed the RNZAF air combat capability by cancelling the purchase of 28 Block 15 F-16 Fighting Falcon fighters and disbanding the No 2 and No 75 A-4K KAHU Skyhawk squadrons and the No 14 Aermacchi training squadron. Most of the RNZAF's fighter pilots subsequently left New Zealand to serve in the Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal Air Force. Keep in mind you have to convince the Labour party why they need such an aircraft. I'll play the role of the Defense Minister. Use your imagination. Remember it has to be cost effective, multi role capable, and a proven platform. Now go do your homework.

 

JediMaster,

 

Here's my original post to start this off. Did you read it?

 

You are proposing to buy new when that will never happen all at once. You suggest wait several years for Typhoons, F-18 Suprs, and F-35s way to expensive for NZ, that is never gonna happen. Think frugal. The point is to start now and get the strike wing up and running in a cost effective proposal. It may not be the best planes or newest planes, just somthing that can do better than what they have now, which is nothing. Which countries are selling thier Typhoons and Gripens. The later started being delivered in 1997 and about 6 years ago the Typhoons. 15 years+ before any of these become available in substantial numbers. As I said before "Now you can propose buying new It would be great, but it would be less expensive to get in and running with both new and used and swap out the older ones for newer right?"

Edited April 8, 2012 by MAKO69

[Derk 265]

 

"I have said this before in these forums, but I am afraid it is getting more urgent now: although nothing is officially known yet, there will be huge spending reductions in the Netherland in order to comply with the rules on deficit of the European Union. One of the first possibilities is Defence.

My estimate is that Leeuwarden AB is going to be closed and at least 2 squadrons of F 16's will be disbanded. This means that anything up to 36 well maintained MLU's are available with plenty of spare parts and weapons, and a sufficient number of well trained and experienced pilots (including weapon and flying instructors) ground personnel and anything you need to set up a complete airbase as far as necessary..

Sufficient of the personel mentioned above would love to emigrate to New Zealand , same as the NZ personel emigrated after the Strike Wing was disbanded. Multi role supersonic planes, avionics comparable to Block 50-52 , and personnel also able to help set up training facilities for NZ pilots for the years to come, to work in the direction of an all Kiwi force in the future with newer equipment in say 10 years. So , almost instant availability and capacities at a bargain price.........."

 

OK, left out some of the cynical stuff, but I still believe this would be a feasible option going a long way into the direction Mako stated in his last posts....

[MAKO69 186]

Derk thats what I'm lookin for

[Derk 265]

Derk thats what I'm lookin for

 

OK, name of the Defence Minister is Hans Hillen, new CO KLu is Sander Snitger (ex NF 5 "Double Dutch" team member), so just phone them as soon as the budget negotiations are concluded one of these days (it will be on internet).....

Edited April 9, 2012 by Derk

[MAKO69 186]

OK, name of the Defence Minister is Hans Hillen, new CO KLu is Sander Snitger (ex NF 5 "Double Dutch" team member), so just phone them as soon as the budget negotiations are concluded one of these days (it will be on internet).....

 

 

Rgr that.

[+Stary 2,427]

I would be looking at TA-50s - modern day F-5 and far more capable than the A-4 IMO - not proven but definitely worth a look.

 

+1

[MAKO69 186]

20 Spitfires found buried in Burma

 

 

 

looks like RNZAF could get some birds.