OT-Verdun Medal

[NS13Jarhead 6]

Greetings,

 

I figured if anyone would know about this, you guys would. I always knew that my great uncle served in World War I, but that was about all I knew. After my mom and I started doing some geneology research, we found out a lot that neither of us knew before. I found out that based on the below picutre that he served with the AEF 75th Infantry Division, then researching the division found out that he most likely participated in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive. Well, my mom went to some of her cousins this week to dig a little more deeply and found out that he was wounded, but returned to the fight. He even saved some of the shrapnel that got him (but they couldn't locate it). Also we knew from the photo that he had been awarded the WWI Victory Medal with two bars (Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector), but we found out he also had this other medal in his personal effects, which appears to be a Verdun Medal (Vernier model). Now to my questions: 1) Why would someone who didn't get to France until 1918 have a Verdun Medal and 2) What is that other ribbon attached to the middle of the suspension ribbon - it just doesn't look like it belongs there.

Edited March 30, 2012 by NS13Jarhead

[Von Paulus 8]

If our lads here, aren't able to give you a full explanation, try the Great War Forum.

These guys are expert.

[tranquillo 10]

If our lads here, aren't able to give you a full explanation, try the Great War Forum.

These guys are expert.

 

+1 for that forum. They were a great help in tracing my grandfather's service history.

[Flyby PC 23]

Hmmmm, not sure, but that ribbon might be a VFW medal, Veteran of a Foreign War.

 

It's less of a medal, and more of a veterans campaign type medal, quite a broad kirk I would imagine, but a badge of honour for servicemen who fought abroad.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Flyby PC

[Shiloh 12]

I found two sources that confirm it's a Verdun medal. Why your grandfather would have one I'm not sure. I wasn't able to find anything on that other ribbon attached.

 

http://nltaylor.net/...ok/archives/123

 

http://www.flyingtig...ory_Code=04uapg

Edited March 30, 2012 by Shiloh

[Shiloh 12]

The ribbon looks like it could be a Certificate or Merit. They were originally red, white and blue and perhaps this one is faded (red looks purplish). I may be off-base here as I just Google-searched some things but it may give you a lead.

 

For Distinguished Service Other Than In Action

From February 11, 1892 through July 9, 1918 the Certificate of Merit could be awarded to enlisted members of the Army for "distinguished service whether in action or otherwise, of valuable character to the United States, as, for example, extraordinary exertion in the preservation of human life, or in the preservation of public property, or rescuing public property from destruction by fire or other-wise, or any hazardous service by which the Government is saved loss in men and material." A total of 205 Certificates of Merit were awarded under these criteria.

[Dej 17]

French WW1 medals can sometimes be seen with a bi-colour or tri-colour stripe, e.g. Croix de Guerre + Medaille Militaire - showing on one ribbon that the wearer was in receipt of both.

 

Perhaps this is a sort of 'placeholder' for a similar situation, that was never properly completed. I can't say what the attached ribbon is though, nor explain how your great uncle came to have a Verdun medal.

 

Lou's the medal expert around these here parts so hopefully he has an answer.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Dej

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

No 75th Division fought within the AEF (numbers 43 to 75 were not attributed). The Cross of Lorraine on the shoulder sleeve badge was the 79th Division's insignia. The 79th Division didn't fight at St-Mihiel, but some sectors of the Meuse-Argonne Offensive still fulfill the French criteria for having fought in the Verdun sector. And this commemorative medal can be attributed to any Allied soldier having fought in this sector between August 1914 and November 1918, not only during the hard days of 1916. So, actually, many American soldiers having fought at St-Mihiel or in the M-A Offensive may have been awarded this medal. About the ribbon, it matches with no French decoration but the Verdun Medal, but with a center vertical white strip added, for which I can't find any satisfying explanation, nor any other cases for other medals.

[Dej 17]

Bien fait, mon Capitaine! Half of the answer peut-etre. According to the website The Great War Document Archive the Verdun Medal was issued by the town itself, meaning anyone who fought in what might be considered the defence of the town is eligible. Hence as le Capitaine says, many American soldiers qualified.

 

Now, as Jarhead's great uncle was wounded I wonder if the other ribbon might be some variant of the 'Insigne du Blessé Militaire'? Someone better equipped than I to browse the Web in French might be able to rule this out.

[NS13Jarhead 6]

You guys are the best!

 

Looking into more info on the Verdun Medal, it does appear that it was presented by the city of Verdun after the war to AEF participants in the 1918 campaign as well as the defenders from 1916. He must have gone back to France for the ceremony.

 

FlyBy, the VFW Medal might be the answer on that strange ribbon. Great Uncle Carroll was quite active in the VFW and in Pennsylvania state government, so it would make sense that he would have worn the VFW ribbon and it would have received a lot of wear - thus the fraying on the edges. Since both the VFW and the Verdun Medal would have been post-war, they may have been put together like that at a later date. I just don't know why he (or one of his relatives) would have attached the two together like that.

 

 

Shiloh, I'd like to think that it was a one of the 205 Certificate of Merit awards, but I think the dimentions of the stripes are a little off.

 

 

Capt V, you are correct. I mistyped the unit he was with the 79th, not the 75th. The unit was organized in Pennsylvania and Maryland. They departed for France in July 1918 and from September-November 1918 fought as part of the US V Corps at Montfaucon and with the FrenchXVII Corps in the areas around Etraye, Wavrille, andMoirey.

[nbryant 8]

Found something similar to CV above:

 

The Verdun medal was created on 20 November 1916 by the Municipal Council of Verdun to commemorate the heroism of its defenders. Originally intended to be awarded to those who served on the Verdun front between 21 February 1916 and 2 November 1916, the medal was, in fact, awarded to those who served anywhere on the Argonne and St Mihiel sectors between 31 July 1914 and 11 November 1918. The original, and most commonly found, version was by Vernier but since supplies of this medal were inadequate, others created Verdun medals and at least seven versions of varying rarity are known, including this, probably the second rarest version, by Augier. Between 21 February and 19 December 1916, some 70% of the entire French army by rotation fought in defence of Verdun. The Battle was the pinnacle of the truly appalling strategy of attrition, the town with its forts being attacked by the Germans in the certain knowledge that the French command would have to do whatever was necessary to defend it and with the aim of ‘bleeding France white’. In the event, French losses of 120,000 dead and 260,000 wounded were almost equalled on the German side and by the end of 1916 the French had regained all the ground they had lost earlier in the year.

 

Still trying to hunt down the ribbon.

[Hauksbee 103]

Medals awarded come with a ribbon with a pin-clasp back so the ribbon can be worn daily and the actual medal kept for special occasions. ( I'm assuming here that this practice dates back to WWI) Might your great-uncle have simply pinned the ribbon to the suspension ribbon for convenience? Or to keep the two together in one place?

[Dej 17]

I'd missed Flyby's post on the VFW. The middle ribbon stripe is definitely gold and allowing for wear on the edges the other colours correspond, so I hazard that is the answer. I've found no other that matches after a whole evening's interesting, enlightening and very informative browsing... thanks for that Jarhead. :-)

[Flyby PC 23]

I was pretty sure, but just wasn't certain about the true colours, but especially the unusual context.

 

 

Found this good thread since -

 

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15149&st=0

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I would have joined in here sooner but I've been on the road most of the week. Jarhead, looks like you have the medals ID'd at this point: The WWI Victory Medal with clasps; the Verdun Medal, (Vernier), which was presented to all US troops that served in the M-A; and the VFW Medal. However, one very important award is blatantly absent, and that is the Purple Heart. If your great uncle was wounded in action he most certainly qualifies for the medal, as this excerpt from the medal's official criteria supports: "Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows: (a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action."

 

If it is not in his personal items or listed anywhere in his service record you folks should definitely contact the VA and petition for it on his behalf. There will need to be supporting evidence of his injuries which may still exist somewhere in the US Army's medical and service records, and even though there was a fire many years ago that destroyed a lot of the records of our past military personnel it is still well worth the effort, IMHO. Supporting documents would include his WWI Service Record, Military Service Card, Military Separation Form and Benefits Record, and his Military Medical Record.

 

Wonderful old photo by the way, and good on you Sir for doing the research and honoring your great uncle's service.

 

.

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

The Purple Heart was not re-established before 1932 (200th anniversary of George Washington), I suppose the medal was awarded retroactively in adequate quantities to any US soldier who had been allowed to wear Wound Chevrons before that year, replacing these. Why Private Carroll didn't receive it, I don't know. A decease before 1932 could be an explanation, but I hope it is not the actual one concerning this pleasant young man... Rather, have a look at the Wiki article about the Wound Chevron, which says that after 1932, some Army personnel (professional soldiers, I suppose) chose to keep the chevron on their uniform rather to claim the PH Medal instead. The same article, also, has a link to the short-lived Army Wound Ribbon (not attributed after 1917), which looks strangely close to the ribbon added to the Verdun Medal!?