CIWS on ships in SF2:NA and/or merged.

[KJakker 901]

I decided to start this thread as a result of some testing thatI did after reading a post by combatace member colmac (Click here to read) aboutthe ineffectiveness of gun based CIWS on a community made ship, in this case WhiteBoySamurai’s resent Kirovpack.

 

In my testing I noticed something odd. On a number of thirdparty ships the CIWS often fire’s just one or two burst at the first inboundASM missile and/or salvo and then refused to engage any coming in following it.In comparison on TW ships like the “OHPerry_82” and the “Spruance_82” this didnot happen. On those ships their CIWS guns continued to engage missile until theyhad no more targets or were overwhelmed.

 

I have done some further testing and have managed to get theCIWS well on some ships. On others it is still only partly effective, engagingand then stopping and doing nothing as more missile are inbound. I think theburst length of the CIWS in relation to the rate of fire of the gun its mounts mightbe an important part of the solution but there is more to it than that.

 

I have attached a test mission and DATA ini’s for variousships I have been experimenting on. Please take a look at how the stock TW Spruance_82handles the missile attack and then look at some of the other ships for comparisonand contrast.

 

SF2 CIWS.7z

[colmack 662]

I also Noticed this WBS's CG 52 who you would figure would make easy work of the Inbounds just take hit after hit luckily she had a Spruance in formation that was giving her some support.Im going to continue testing and adjusting were it can

Edited April 30, 2012 by colmack

[Fubar512 1,350]

The most effective "anti-cruise missile" defense I've seen in-game yet, is, interestingly enough, the 57 mm AK-725 turrets on the Kresta II cruisers. They have the range, and the accuracy to nail ASMs at medium ranges. In real Life, that particular weapons' system was found lacking in that area, most likely due to poor interfacing bewteen the turret and its fire-control radar. It failed to stop an ASM that was accidentally fired against a Soviet Corvette, resulting in casualties.

 

 

The Kashtans are OK against cruise missiles at long range (when using its Kortik SAMs). At shorter ranges, however, the game engine somehow gets confused when choosing between missile and gun mode, causing the gun-barrels to stay elevated somewhat above the flight-path of most surface skimming missiles.

 

The AK-630 turrets don't have that issue.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Youtube video of Kresta II and Ulyanovsk under attack:

 

[colmack 662]

I'll be glad when the Kresta II's come online. Fubar I know you guys have worked real hard on them the Kresta n Ulyanovsk will be gems when they are done.

[+WhiteBoySamurai 1,094]

Thanks for posting up the test mission, KJakker. I've had that problem with third party ship CIWS, even the ones I've built. On some days, they'll be on their game, and take out just about everything thrown at them. But a lot of times, they fire one burst and then duh herp derp how do I shot gun.

 

With the gun reliability set at at least 100, I can't imagine that jamming is the cause. I get the same result with the stock "20mm_mk15" gun data anyway. If the gunners are not "seeing" the targets for some reason, it could be a ViewportPosition issue. Still, both my ships and the stock ones use viewports positioned near each individual gun, a short distance above the barrel. Not sure what else it could be.

 

On the bright side, I was able to solve the Kashtan Konfusion issue on the Kirov, and it will be included with the next update. The solution came to me in a dream; all I had to do was to create a gunner within a gunner. (This involves creating new nodes on the model, so unfortunately I won't be able to apply this fix to the Udaloy II or other ships that use the Kashtan.)

[+Julhelm 266]

Sometime in the future I'm gonna make a Kirov of my own. For now I think I'll focus on landing and support vessels.

[Fubar512 1,350]

 

On the bright side, I was able to solve the Kashtan Konfusion issue on the Kirov, and it will be included with the next update. The solution came to me in a dream; all I had to do was to create a gunner within a gunner. (This involves creating new nodes on the model, so unfortunately I won't be able to apply this fix to the Udaloy II or other ships that use the Kashtan.)

 

 

The missiles will not completely stay inside their launch canisters if you do that, and it looks cheap 'n cheesy ...I mean, you are using real as opposed to virtual, invisible missiles, right? The other drawback with that method, is that you wind up with jittery Kashtans, that appear to seriously need to cut back on their caffeine intake. Setting the guns to a shorter range doesn't appear to help, either.

[KJakker 901]

I have been doing some more testing and I think I have managed to get the CIWS on WBS's CG-47 and CG-52 functioning fairly well. I have attached the tested Data files as well as variants for equipping each ship with the Block 0, Block1, or Block1B versions of the Phalanx. I have also included two gun data files to go along with the Block1 and Block1B and a basic Template for setting up Phalanx on a ship.

 

Let me know how the CIWS of the modified CG-47 and CG-52 function in your testing.

 

SF2 CIWS2.7z

 

Youtube video of Kresta II and Ulyanovsk under attack:

 

 

I am looking forward to the Kresta II and Ulyanovsk. Given what I can see in that video I am interested in seeing the data for the 57 mm AK-725. I think it could be useful in improving the effectiveness of naval Bofors 40mm and 57mm guns vs missiles.

 

On the bright side, I was able to solve the Kashtan Konfusion issue on the Kirov, and it will be included with the next update. The solution came to me in a dream; all I had to do was to create a gunner within a gunner. (This involves creating new nodes on the model, so unfortunately I won't be able to apply this fix to the Udaloy II or other ships that use the Kashtan.)

 

I was thinking something similar after playing around with the Kashtan in the INI files for awhile and finding out that as as Fubar512 said two gunner in control of a single mount is crazy. After that I was thinking you would have to create septate invisible missile launchers with their own pivots and gunners for the Kashtan. However your comment about "Gunner within a gunner" sounds like something else.

[colmack 662]

Oh boy the Tico's are infact open for business i put 16 Backfires on them and out of the 8 missiles that got fired at the Ticos a combo of Standards and CIWS neutralized all the In-bounds that was using block IB on both ships

 

 

BTW thanks KJakker

Edited May 2, 2012 by colmack

[+WhiteBoySamurai 1,094]

The missiles will not completely stay inside their launch canisters if you do that, and it looks cheap 'n cheesy ...I mean, you are using real as opposed to virtual, invisible missiles, right?

 

I had experimented with two different methods, one which tied the same pivot to two gunners (which resulted in the jitters that you mentioned), and the other was to create new dummy launch nodes attached to the existing Kashtan nodes within the model hierarchy. It's an inelegant solution, true, but it's vastly more effective than before. In my testing so far, the main gunner and virtual gunner will always point in the same direction once they've acquired a target, so the missiles still appear to be launching properly as with a single gunner.

 

But anyway, of course I've set ShowMissile to FALSE on the SA-N-11s. They're concealed in canisters. No sense forcing the game to render a dozen objects that the player can't see at all.

 

 

I have been doing some more testing and I think I have managed to get the CIWS on WBS's CG-47 and CG-52 functioning fairly well. I have attached the tested Data files as well as variants for equipping each ship with the Block 0, Block1, or Block1B versions of the Phalanx. I have also included two gun data files to go along with the Block1 and Block1B and a basic Template for setting up Phalanx on a ship.

 

Let me know how the CIWS of the modified CG-47 and CG-52 function in your testing.

 

Thank you once again. There is a noticeable improvement in their performance now. It does seem that lowering the GunRange seems to be the key, all other things being equal. Counter-intuitive, but hey, whatever works. The sub-caliber rounds seem to help too.

 

I'm still puzzled why the stock ships left out GunStabilization and GunRadarTracking on their weapons. Leaving them in or taking them out seems to have no visible effect on my end, anyway.

[Fubar512 1,350]

No sense forcing the game to render a dozen objects that the player can't see at all.

 

That's not true at all. They are quite visible at launch, and in flight, as evidenced by the video.

[KJakker 901]

I have a problem people, the CG-47 and CG-52 files that were working yesterday are now exhibiting the fire two burst from a mount and stop behavior that I thought I had overcome. The mounts still track the targets but for some reason the gunner is not pullingthe trigger. The CIWS on the CG-16, CGN-25, and Spruance_37 are all stillworking as they should as are the stock TW Spruance_82 and OHPerry_82.

 

I have been trying various adjustments to work around this issue and I am having some on and off success and failure but can’t get consistent behavior at the moment. Would some of you test the files I posted yesterday and see if the CIWS mounts of the CG-47 and CG-52 are still working effectively for you? I want to make sure that it is not just my game install or system that is having an issue.

 

Secondly I have observed that theThirdWire Kiev in stock configuration is also showing the shoot two burst and ceasefire behavior. I made a modified Data file for it and its AK-630’s are now much more effective.

 

Finally I have managed to get the CIWS systems of the Slava and Udaloy to work fairly reliably. I have attached data files for the Slava, Udaloy I, and Kiev.

 

SF2 CIWS3.7z

[colmack 662]

just ran a mission they are working fine, my only problem is getting the captain to stop turning the ship into the in coming Vampires it losses allot area for the CIWS to work its like I'm dealing with the chick from the movie " 50 first dates"

[+Dave 2,322]

I have been reading and keeping up this thread with great interest as my RSR campaign hinges on your successes. Now Samurai and Fubar if you two would quit competing with each other and worked together amazing things will happen. Just my 2 cents.....hint hint.

[+WhiteBoySamurai 1,094]

I have a problem people, the CG-47 and CG-52 files that were working yesterday are now exhibiting the fire two burst from a mount and stop behavior that I thought I had overcome. The mounts still track the targets but for some reason the gunner is not pullingthe trigger. The CIWS on the CG-16, CGN-25, and Spruance_37 are all stillworking as they should as are the stock TW Spruance_82 and OHPerry_82.

 

I have been trying various adjustments to work around this issue and I am having some on and off success and failure but can’t get consistent behavior at the moment. Would some of you test the files I posted yesterday and see if the CIWS mounts of the CG-47 and CG-52 are still working effectively for you? I want to make sure that it is not just my game install or system that is having an issue.

 

Secondly I have observed that theThirdWire Kiev in stock configuration is also showing the shoot two burst and ceasefire behavior. I made a modified Data file for it and its AK-630’s are now much more effective.

 

Finally I have managed to get the CIWS systems of the Slava and Udaloy to work fairly reliably. I have attached data files for the Slava, Udaloy I, and Kiev.

 

It's not just you. Even with your updated data, which I think is about as good as it's going to get, CIWS on those ships (and even stock ships sometimes) will just randomly fail for me, on average once in every 5-10 runs of the simulation. It seems to happen most often when there are multiple ASMs coming in at roughly the same time. If there's a stream of them, the gunner will pick one off at a time with a reasonably high degree of success. But if they reach CIWS range at roughly the same time, I think the gunner gets confused and doesn't know which one to attack.

 

For some good news, I made a few minor tweaks to the 57mm gun on the LCS (TimedFuse=False) and now it's a surprisingly effective weapon against ASMs. It has somewhat similar specs to the Soviet 57mm gun Fubar mentioned, so fast medium caliber guns may occupy some sort of sweet spot. The ship's other guns are next to useless against fast sea skimmers, though, and the main gun and RAM can get saturated quickly. I'm sure critics of the LCS would be happy to say "I told you so." >_>

 

I have been reading and keeping up this thread with great interest as my RSR campaign hinges on your successes. Now Samurai and Fubar if you two would quit competing with each other and worked together amazing things will happen. Just my 2 cents.....hint hint.

 

Yes, sir, we'll get it working or die get really frustrated trying. For the record, I have much respect for Fubar and the amount of time he's put in with this community, and I value any insight he can share with us.

[+SupGen 79]

Blessed be the peacemaker!

[+Dave 2,322]

Blessed be the peacemaker!

 

Blessed be the cheesemakers?

[+SupGen 79]

Well, that too. Cheese makes everthing better.

[KJakker 901]

I have been way for a bit but have still been working on ship missile defense. Take a look at the attached file. I has data files for the "Giuseppe Garibaldi", "Krivak II" and "Udaloy II" classes as well has a number of different guns in the 40mm to 130mm range for you to try on ships to see how they preform in the missile defense role. Please read the included read-me files for more information.

 

SF2 CIWS4.7z

[colmack 662]

I have have been working on SZ's CVN75, she seems to be doing her part now and I got the "dead" missile unit working i think... here is the data file I have @ this point.

CVN75_CIWS_DATA.rar

[KJakker 901]

It has been awhile since I posted here but I have something I think you will be interested in. I have managed to get the Udaloy I and II classes SA-N-9's working with the SF2:NA Missile Gunner system and used and alternate node on the Udaloy II so that its SA-N-11's work without interfering with its CIWS guns system. Take a look and tell me what you think.

 

Udaloy Sam Update.7z

Edited August 4, 2012 by KJakker

[KJakker 901]

Apparently I did not do enough testing on the Udaloy I class please ignore its file. I make a new post when I am done fixing it.

[KJakker 901]

I have posted the Fixed version of the Udaloy class files in the main SF2 Mods & Skinning Discussion forum here.

[macelena 1,070]

Btw, any news on the Kresta Class? it was looking great