How good is the simulation of the guns in SF/WoX games?

[thodouras95]

I've been playing WoX and SF for a long time now, and most of the time I score with missiles.Not surprising, you'll say.Indeed, it's not, since guns are a lot more demanding in getting a good shot.However, in order for me to score a gun kill, my opposition has to fulfill at least one or more of these requirements:

 

-out of fuel, so having to RTB, gets shot on the way home, since he's not maneuvering at all

 

-already damaged

 

-far inferior in terms of performace

 

-really really unlucky.

 

My problem is that, as you see, when it comes to guns, I simply can't hit anything.I don't carry much experience from other sims, but, as far as I can remember, my experiences from those were a lot more positive.In light of these, I want to ask:

 

Do you think that TW has realistically simulated the aircraft cannons in its games?If yes (which means that I am terrible), does anyone have any tips for me?

[+Stary]

the only rule is there are no rules in real life... once well placed shot can turn nimble fighter in thousands of pieces, while on other occasion Mig can RTB with 200 20mm holes in it

 

the thing I consider worth further checking is bullets speed, seems a bit too slow for me, but it's just my "feel" gotten from other sims

 

guns in TW series do have drag, bullet drop. speed drop etc modelled

 

and do not rely on the computed lead, it's often off, so... practice, practice, practice

[MigBuster]

1. Get Track IR

2. Practice a lot.

3. Only use split second bursts

 

 

I find it more difficult to hit with Guns in Falcon 4.

[Centurion-1]

I actually think the guns are very effective in SF2, the M61 gatling especially (found on most US fighters), it is a virtual death ray. My gripe is that the guns are IMHO too effective against tanks, the 20mm M61 should not be able to score kills vs modern tanks (atleast in the frontal sector). Regarding tactics, just make sure to get real close, if it fills your sight it is hard to miss

[Toryu]

Most of the time, I come in from the deep-six at a signifigant overtaking-rate, and open up while zooming past (yet behind) the opponent.

You can't possibly miss that way.

 

The other technique is laying a scren of projectiles in the way of the other aircraft - it has to pass through your projectiles.

Scoring one, two or even three hits, the other guy (fighter-sized) will turn into a fiery ball of scrap-metal.

 

 

Actually, the effect of guns is somewhat too much in this game - usually (depending on systems hit), taking down a fighter-sized target would need about 5-10 20mm hits and 1-3 30mm hits.

[+Stary]

bullets in the series are way too effective since day one

[thodouras95]

I actually think the guns are very effective in SF2, the M61 gatling especially (found on most US fighters), it is a virtual death ray. My gripe is that the guns are IMHO too effective against tanks, the 20mm M61 should not be able to score kills vs modern tanks (atleast in the frontal sector). Regarding tactics, just make sure to get real close, if it fills your sight it is hard to miss

 

Far too effective, I'd say.If you're lucky, one short burst will have enough power to make a bomber explode.Same for tanks.As for getting close, well, what can I say, I'll fly against less agile fighters (cause most of the other ones rarely let me get close to them whilst turning).

 

Most of the time, I come in from the deep-six at a signifigant overtaking-rate, and open up while zooming past (yet behind) the opponent.

You can't possibly miss that way.

 

The other technique is laying a scren of projectiles in the way of the other aircraft - it has to pass through your projectiles.

Scoring one, two or even three hits, the other guy (fighter-sized) will turn into a fiery ball of scrap-metal.

 

 

Actually, the effect of guns is somewhat too much in this game - usually (depending on systems hit), taking down a fighter-sized target would need about 5-10 20mm hits and 1-3 30mm hits.

 

I apply these tactics when attacking bombers, particularly with the F-16; it's gunsight is probably the best in the whole series.However, I have nearly quit using the 2nd one on fighters, as my calculation is rarely accurate (both me and the LCOS fail at that most of the time)

 

1. Get Track IR

2. Practice a lot.

3. Only use split second bursts

 

 

I find it more difficult to hit with Guns in Falcon 4.

 

Really?I'm more of a missileer in Falcon (BMS), but when it's gun time, it's actually a lot easier for me to get a good burst (although I struggle to get a good angle for at least 5 mins)

 

the only rule is there are no rules in real life... once well placed shot can turn nimble fighter in thousands of pieces, while on other occasion Mig can RTB with 200 20mm holes in it

 

the thing I consider worth further checking is bullets speed, seems a bit too slow for me, but it's just my "feel" gotten from other sims

 

guns in TW series do have drag, bullet drop. speed drop etc modelled

 

and do not rely on the computed lead, it's often off, so... practice, practice, practice

 

Now that you mention bullet speed...can I edit it?

[MigBuster]

Far too easy - you should be flying the F-100 and F-4 guns only against MiG-17s - that should be more challenging.

[thodouras95]

Far too easy - you should be flying the F-100 and F-4 guns only against MiG-17s - that should be more challenging.

 

Done it...can't him 'em until they RTB, although I have better chances with the Super Sabre, because of the 4 cannons.

[Do335]

i find the computed gunsight a bit off. a little more lead than the pipper and bullets will hit. also pipper doesn't react to fast aircraft maneuvers

f-4 vs mig-17 guns only is lucky shots, side or high shots, face shots.... never six clock classic firing pos shot lol

[+KnightWolf45]

spray bullets ahead of the bandits nose works for me!

[+ianh755]

I find that the bullet "spread" is too narrow (i.e the gun is too accurate) and the M61 is a good example of that. The spread should be around 100m square at 1.5km (100yrd at 1nm) for the M61 yet in-game it's like a Laser beam, the idea being that there's enough spread so that you don't have to be perfectly lined up, almost like a shotgun versus a rifle when shooting ducks in-flight.

[Do335]

I find that the bullet "spread" is too narrow (i.e the gun is too accurate) and the M61 is a good example of that. The spread should be around 100m square at 1.5km (100yrd at 1nm) for the M61 yet in-game it's like a Laser beam, the idea being that there's enough spread so that you don't have to be perfectly lined up, almost like a shotgun versus a rifle when shooting ducks in-flight.

eh it does spread, just not the way we want it. keep trigger squeezed, bullets go some 1 deg left of the pipper for a while, next stream go 1 deg right of pipper. bah

[saisran]

you're not alone. getting a gun kill is really hard. since there's no hit bubble unlike other games. this means you have to hit the target where it stands. Predicting your targets move and getting your sight in front of his flight path would be the best way to do it. Also, if your not using a flight stick you need it. helps a lot in aiming.

[Toryu]

The first thing I do when flying a guns-attack is getting rid of the pointless LCOS-thingy.

Takes too much time to align, set-up and re-align.

 

Use the A-G fixed gunsight-option and just shoot on feel.

That takes some time till you'll recognize an improvement, but it really helps in achieving kills more quickly.

[Do335]

The first thing I do when flying a guns-attack is getting rid of the pointless LCOS-thingy.

Takes too much time to align, set-up and re-align.

 

Use the A-G fixed gunsight-option and just shoot on feel.

That takes some time till you'll recognize an improvement, but it really helps in achieving kills more quickly.

 

reminds me sabre pilots used to stick gum on the gunsight when the gyro stops working which is very often lol

[+KnightWolf45]

leave the gunsigth caged best to feel by tracers

Edited September 29, 2012 by cocas

[+Stary]

^What cocas says, I prefer it this old way

[+KnightWolf45]

^What cocas says, I prefer it this old way

we dint have in the old prop days right Stary!

[saisran]

Disable the LCOS then.

[+Stary]

see, the gyro, LCOS, CCIP all have flaws, it's known issue with slight miscalculations on these, I think TK once said it's made this way on purpose for the "fun", have to get used to...

[+ianh755]

eh it does spread, just not the way we want it. keep trigger squeezed, bullets go some 1 deg left of the pipper for a while, next stream go 1 deg right of pipper. bah

 

I see what you mean but I've got the Accuracy figure in my guns at 5% which gives a nice wide 100yd+/- 10 spread at 1nm, so even with the stock guns going very slightly left/right it's still far too accurate compared to IRL. Have a look at some A-10 gun-cam footage from Afghan to see how big their burst pattern is (roughly 50y wide by however long the strafe or a 100yrd box).

Edited September 29, 2012 by ianh755

[Do335]

bit hard to describe. i mean a random angle should be applied to every bullet. the way SF models it is 1 angle assigns to 50 bullets, and they all go out in a straight line. next 50 bullets, another angle slightly different from previous, another straight line goes out just in a slightly different direction. so while in rl with 100 bullets fired you get 100 different impact points, in sf you get only 2 impact point on the ground. no matter how much you edit the accuracy figure the RL effect won't be achieved.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Do335

[+Stary]

bit hard to describe. i mean a random angle should be applied to every bullet. the way SF models it is 1 angle assigns to 50 bullets, and they all go out in a straight line. next 50 bullets, another angle slightly different from previous, another straight line goes out just in a slightly different direction. so while in rl with 100 bullets fired you get 100 different impact points, in sf you get only 2 impact point on the ground. no matter how much you edit the accuracy figure the RL effect won't be achieved.

 

utter BS... every every single bullet has it's own impact point maestro... try harder

 

1 "angle" (what is that huh?) to 50 bullets? You play on easy or something..?

[+Brain32]

I've been playing WoX and SF for a long time now, and most of the time I score with missiles.Not surprising, you'll say.Indeed, it's not, since guns are a lot more demanding in getting a good shot.However, in order for me to score a gun kill, my opposition has to fulfill at least one or more of these requirements:

 

-out of fuel, so having to RTB, gets shot on the way home, since he's not maneuvering at all

 

-already damaged

 

-far inferior in terms of performace

 

-really really unlucky.

 

My problem is that, as you see, when it comes to guns, I simply can't hit anything.I don't carry much experience from other sims, but, as far as I can remember, my experiences from those were a lot more positive.In light of these, I want to ask:

 

Do you think that TW has realistically simulated the aircraft cannons in its games?If yes (which means that I am terrible), does anyone have any tips for me?

 

Hitting with modern cannons is really easy in SF2 I had over 50% dogfight hit accuracy on many occasions which is even kind of silly however AI planes move in a predictable and often quite unrealistic pattern so once you get a hang of it hitting them will not be so much of a challenge...