UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 11, 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/11/david-cameron-fund-world-war-one-commemorations?newsfeed=true Hmm... As anyone who knows me, will understand..I have very strong feelings about remembering our War dead... but £50M to commemorate a War which no-one who fought in, is alive to appreciate?....Call me Cynical, but looks to me that Mr Cameron, is trying to do what Mrs Thatcher did, when the country was f*cked last time...and that is start the fanatical Flag Waving (he can't get permission to attack the Argies)...so had to think of something..and clearly 20million Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen from WW1, are worth remembering...but they were led to their deaths, by Imperialistic Tosspots like this! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast 153 Posted October 11, 2012 As an ex-serviceman Army and RAF... I will admit it does sound weird to spend this money on what it seems to be a celebration of War... (Attacking the Argies might be a good thing provided it was only the members of the government fighting each other as they both seem to be idiots would pay good money to see that)... Also it should be more a case of remembrance not celebration and the remembrance of all those who died not just one nation if nothing else it will perhaps teach respect for others... Spend the money on History lessons to teach those who know no better the mistakes that caused WW1 and 2... As to what happened 100 years ago as was quoted :- Lions led by Donkeys Is a wonderful phrase but sometimes in War this is what happens and it happens in all militaries... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 11, 2012 As an ex-serviceman Army and RAF... I will admit it does sound weird to spend this money on what it seems to be a celebration of War... (Attacking the Argies might be a good thing provided it was only the members of the government fighting each other as they both seem to be idiots would pay good money to see that)... Also it should be more a case of remembrance not celebration and the remembrance of all those who died not just one nation if nothing else it will perhaps teach respect for others... Spend the money on History lessons to teach those who know no better the mistakes that caused WW1 and 2... As to what happened 100 years ago as was quoted :- Lions led by Donkeys Is a wonderful phrase but sometimes in War this is what happens and it happens in all militaries... Exactly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyby PC 23 Posted October 12, 2012 This is being perceived in some quarters of Scotland as a tasteless act of flag waving hoping to influence the opinion of the Scottish electorate holding their referendum on Independence in Autumn 2014. (The media has already recently sought to politicise the British success in the Olympics and Andy Murray's win for similar effect). Who else celebrates/commemorates the centenary of the beginning of a war? It's vulgur, artless, and if those motivations are part of the picture, then it's also beneath contempt. I have the deepest respect for our fallen servicemen, indeed the whole of Scotland is renknowned for such respect, but I have a razor sharp cynicism concerning UK poiticians. Personally, I'd rather commemorate the end of hostilities, not their beginning. Sorry mods, I don't mean to present political arguments or opinion, but just report how this innitiative by Cameron is being read by some... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NS13Jarhead 6 Posted October 12, 2012 I don't know about how it's percieved on the east side of the Atlantic, but over here on the west side, we're deep into the middle of the 150 year commemoration of our American Civil War. We don't celebrate it so much as we try to have rememberance for it. I live about 10 miles from Manassas, where the first major land battle (1st Manassas/Bull Run) was fought in 1861 and we just passed the 150th anniversary of Antietam/Sharpsburg this September. We will be having the big Gettysburg commemoration in July of next year. There are quite a few reenactment groups who dress up as Union and Confederate soldiers and line up to recreate the battle as much as possible with a fraction of the personnel who were actually involved. These are private organizations who fund themselves and do it out of a love of history. I think the most important thing they do, however, is to set up living history displays before and after the battle reenactments where they show the general public their meticulously fabricated replica uniforms, weapons, and even food. It seems that people forget how it was 15 years ago, let alone 150. So it does give some of us a chance to actually visualiize what the conditions and mindset were like when the battles were fought and maybe, in some small measure, provides an understanding into the hardships they endured. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tranquillo 10 Posted October 12, 2012 £50m....money better spent on equiping our current service men properly then maybe not so many would come home with their lives in ruins or worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) They could spend it on the restauration of at least one of the Battle of Britain airfields like Manston or Biggin Hill or Hornchurch (not sure which of them still exist), and the still existing aircraft of that time. And they could spend it in a way, that gives many people a job with these restaurations. Just my 2 cent. Edited October 12, 2012 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted October 12, 2012 Politicians trying to benefit from old wars and nationalism? Nothing new there. "Lions led by Donkeys" has become a popular catchphrase, but actually it's not entirely fair to the "Donkeys". In every war, there have been good and bad commanders. WW1 was no exception to this rule. There definitely were some real donkeys in charge of operations, but some brilliant minds too. The Entente powers couldn't win the war by staying idle in the west while the Central Powers were beating Russia in the east. They needed to attack to weaken the Germans, and in WW1 conditions of the Western front, these offensives inevitably became brutal bloodbaths. New and better technology and tactics were required to break out of the trenches in the west, and developing them took time. It also cost a huge amount of human lives. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tranquillo 10 Posted October 12, 2012 They could spend it on the restauration of at least one of the Battle of Britain airfields like Manston or Biggin Hill or Hornchurch (not sure which of them still exist), and the still existing aircraft of that time. And they could spend it in a way, that gives many people a job with these restaurations. Just my 2 cent. Hornchurch no longer exists as an airfield, Olham, but Biggin Hill and Manston do. Manston is used as an emergency landing site because it has a very long runway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 12, 2012 I was on an old BoB airfield in the 80s - Henley or Kenley - near London. There were still earth bunkers and shrapnell shelters for WW2 fighters there. I had seen "Battle of Britain" in the early seventies, and it was very touching to see a place from where these tireless boys made one sortie after another, until they could hardly keep their eyes open anymore. Their finest hours! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 12, 2012 I used to live in Caterham..which is about 5 miles from Kenley.....I used to play in the old control tower as a child...never realising it's significance. It's gone now...though I think Gliding still takes place there Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 12, 2012 Well, you realise it now at hindsight, and you feel goose skin of awe later, but you feel it, don't you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 13, 2012 Definately Olham...I also felt rather sad, that such an historic place, was just an empty shell...with Graffiti on the walls..rubbish strewn everywhere....and paint all peeled off...really quite sad :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyby PC 23 Posted October 14, 2012 There's now a government e-petition been started to postpone the 'celebration' until 2018, to mark the end of hostilities rather than their beginning. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40143 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 15, 2012 Yes..but in 2018..Cameron will be gone!...that won't do at all! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyby PC 23 Posted October 15, 2012 If he is playing politics with Scottish opinion, he is playing with fire ... http://caledonianmercury.com/2012/04/16/opinion-why-ypres-matters-more-than-bannockburn-for-the-independence-vote/0032258 This is my last word in the thread Admin - I really don't mean to be political or express an opinion, but just expose potential hypocrisy and cynical electioneering. Please all, treat the political issue itself as irrelevant, but I invite people to draw their own conclusions about the political intent behind celebrating the 2014 date. For balance, however, 2014 will be 100th centenary for the start of WW1, and will be the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. Is that electioneering too? It may be. Draw your own conclusions, (but keep them to yourself or we might end up in the pub). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 15, 2012 . Widowmaker and all, here in the US it is no different unfortunately. Many of our less-than-scrupulous politicians use past wars as fodder for patriotic rhetoric and self-enhancement in the public eye. WWI has been forgotten by nearly everyone in this country to the point where when Frank Buckles, (the last US WWI veteran, who past away February 27, 2011), lobbied during the final years of his life for a national Great War memorial in Washington DC, he was denied seeing it happen in his lifetime. IMHO, when and if such a memorial ever gets built it will be strictly a political move on the part of some up-and-coming wannabe. I loathe how corrupt our political, (and financial), systems have become. I know there are far more good people than bad in this tired old world, but unfortunately few of them want the hassles of trying to run it. John Dalberg-Acton had it dead right: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy also had it right, "... first against the wall when the revolution comes." Alright then, who's next for the soapbox? . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HumanDrone 4 Posted October 15, 2012 Lawd ha'e mercy, Lou, you throw open an invitation like that with this idiot election a few weeks away?! ;) I'm to the point where any discussion of it turns my stomach, The commercials, the rhetoric, it's disgusting, and an insult to the collective American intelligence (either that, or an awful description of it, God help us...) At least I know we're not alone with what Flyby and Widowmaker are saying! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 15, 2012 I've long since given up on Politics...I revoked my right to vote about 5 yrs ago...really cannot see the point. Germany may have lost the War, but they now rule Europe....the UK is following all great Empires....down the Plug-hole...and I'm past caring Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HumanDrone 4 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Politics, n, from Greek "poly" = many, + English "tics" = ugly, blood-sucking parasites. Edited October 15, 2012 by HumanDrone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Aaaah - a big pool of political debate! It's not allowed here, you guys know that? Hey, could you move a bit there - I wanna jump in too! I know there are far more good people than bad in this tired old world, but unfortunately few of them want the hassles of trying to run it. You pointed out one of the weakest spots of democracies here, I suppose - if not THE weakest. The commercials, the rhetoric, it's disgusting, and an insult to the collective American intelligence (either that, or an awful description of it, God help us...) This line did me good; from over the pond the American election campaigns often look VERY bizzare. But now I see: you may have the same impression your end. Germany may have lost the War, but they now rule Europe....the UK is following all great Empires....down the Plug-hole... Widowmaker, my old friend - if it comforts you: things are going very badly down the drain here too. When I hear, how people from other countries - European or not - see Germany, then I often wonder, if the appearance of a whole nation could be fudged in such a manner? The big industries may still make big money, okay. But while the tax payers money seems to be getting spent by the billions for the saving of Europe, most of our local communities are more or less bankrupt or close to it. It all doesn't seem to make sense anymore. Or it does - but not common sense. . Edited October 16, 2012 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HumanDrone 4 Posted October 16, 2012 You know, Herr Olham, I have admired Germany on her self-discipline and the ability to stay solid amidst the chaos over there, but as you say, she is caught in the "Too big to fail" status of the Euro, and the sovereign debt issues of the rest of Europe. But yeah, maybe if we keep this genteel, as we did the global warming thing, we can gripe a little without getting locked. I will say that in my opinion, moving away from nuclear power generation is a BIG mistake, esp. if it's only based on Fukishima, but hey- there is still a lot to admire about your nation. Over here, the mind just boggles. $16,000,000,000,000 in debt?! Are you serious? When I was younger, a congressman was chiding his pork-barrel spending compatriots - "Hey, guys, a million here and a million there - pretty soon we're talking real money!" and in my relatively short adult life I've seen that go from millions, to billions, and now trillions. And neither side of the aisle seems to "get it" - no matter who gets in, we get hosed, and hosed royally. Both parties spend like drunken sailors, it's just a matter of which direction the money gets wasted. Not buying into a conspiracy theory or anything, but it seems as if something bigger is going on here, that these big finance and big-government types have a tiger by the tail, and are struggling - but from here it looks like the struggle is all on paper. If Joe owes Fred and Fred owes Billy-Bob and Billy-Bob owes Junior and Junior owes Joe, it seems like the lot of them have to sit down and see what they can cancel out. But what do I know? I have to make do with my paycheck, I can't just tap a bottomless source (Taxpayers) when I get the notion to spend a bunch of money to "Help the taxpayers (to re-elect me)". Oh, yeah - I DO have the same view as you, if not worse, on the elections - I could just puke, i have completely tuned out. I know how I'm going to vote, but I'm not tickled about it, I don't have any great hopes that it will change anything. When these are the best candidates either party can come up with, we are, as my boss likes to say, "in deep do-do." Best to you all, Tom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted October 16, 2012 The whole Western world is in decline. Has been for some time now. I don't see things changing for the better anytime soon. Of course, if WOFF were to come out tomorrow, things would instantly look much brighter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyby PC 23 Posted October 16, 2012 Scotland MIGHT be changing and breaking the mould. It does have certain opportunities, but whether it is brave enough to take them is the million dollar question. There is cause for hope and optimism, - but the mainstream media seems absolutely determined to snuff it out. It's going to be a curious fight - one side has all the winning arguments, but the other side has a vice like grip on the media. - Absolutely not kidding, if you want objective journalism the best impartial news is Aljazeera. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HumanDrone 4 Posted October 16, 2012 Well, I'm pulling for good Scotland, Flyby (England forever! Scotland a wee bit longer! - bumper sticker I saw in Pittsburgh). But I'm with Hasse Wind. The release of WOFF would brighten my world tremendously! By the way - which MSM were you talking about - Scotland's, or the USA's? Because ours has gone to the point of utter madness; I might as well get my news from the pulp papers at the supermarket checkouts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
