Women in Combat Units

[+JonathanRL 973]

First off, your digressing from the main issue; whether women can perform at the standard the military expects physically. I do not think they can with but few exceptions in the combat arena. I also am NOT making excuses for men behaving badly against women. I would report, if not beat the living daylights out of, any man attempting a crime against a woman. You know, just like the old days. The point about whether men and women should serve together because of sex issues has been rendered somewhat moot as its already done. However, I am of the opinion that there ARE risks due to immaturity, etc. when you put young men and women together like this as we are now presently experiancing. It is not an excuse, it is a statement of fact and an opinion.

 

I think you are deranged. It all comes down to training and standards. Once again, Swedish Female Troops serve in _Afganistan_, and there has been little to no complaint about them. Since the troops with them are healthy, mature and secure in themselves and their ability, there are also no problems with sexual harassment or similar charges. This is the fact. We are doing it right, whatever example you bring up is the wrong way to do it. You cannot simply say a gender is incapable of something, because this is stone age mentality, the same kind that makes Saudis believe women are not fit to drive. And we know they are.

 

If you claim there is a risk "due to immaturity", then why the hell do you want to give the same boys a loaded weapon? By putting this as a reason, you are excusing, especially with that horrible "Boys will be boys" line. Rape is a crime, it is _not_ a Misdemeanor.

 

Gepard: I would think the risk of the Human race becoming extinct due to women soldiers is rather low. If we enter a war with that kind of casulties, you can be assured civilians will be sufferering them as well, and then it does not matter if we have women on the frontline or not.

[+pcpilot 181]

I think you are deranged. It all comes down to training and standards. Once again, Swedish Female Troops serve in _Afganistan_, and there has been little to no complaint about them. Since the troops with them are healthy, mature and secure in themselves and their ability, there are also no problems with sexual harassment or similar charges. This is the fact. We are doing it right, whatever example you bring up is the wrong way to do it. You cannot simply say a gender is incapable of something, because this is stone age mentality, the same kind that makes Saudis believe women are not fit to drive. And we know they are.

 

If you claim there is a risk "due to immaturity", then why the hell do you want to give the same boys a loaded weapon? By putting this as a reason, you are excusing, especially with that horrible "Boys will be boys" line. Rape is a crime, it is _not_ a Misdemeanor.

 

 

I am not deranged simply because we disagree jonathan, I am trying to voice my opinion. Do they not allow opinions in Sweden? As for the immaturity aspect, I submit you try reading the newspaper or listening to the news. There are harrassment and rape claims every day it seems in the military. Certainly there could be more due to higher reporting as you said. There can also be more as crazyhorse said due to manipulation which I have suspected myself ever since women were integrated. There can also be more due to the fact that for the last 20 years, teenagers have been thrown into the mix together doing what teens do. Having a rifle does not mean they are suddenly mature just as going to college doesnt. Take a close look at a high school or dorm room and youll see the behaviour Im talking about. And for your info, its not just men misbehaving, women nowadays are just as ill behaved. In the old days, right or wrong, this was the reason for seperating the sexes in certain circumstances. It saved a lot of trouble.

If the swedish women do well in the military than kudos. Ours do well also. And yet there are STILL problems that cant be ignored as most people in this discussion recognize. And yes I can say a gender is simply not capable of something because women can NOT perform at the physical level men can, a few exceptions aside. That is fact my friend whether you like it or not and no amount of yapping and pc feminist politics will change that. My 14 years of military service WITH women has shown me that. Im sorry, but I dont thnk women should be in combat units, espesially special forces. If you think thats a caveman mentality fine, I dont care. Its my opinion. I do agree that women make meaningful contributions in the military every day. And yes, Im sure more than a few have been shot at and acted appropriately. Beleive it or not, I am just as proud of any woman in military service as I am of any man, they EARNED that respect just by getting an honorable discharge. I just feel there are jobs they are not suited for just like diplomacy isnt a job suited for you. And I really dont see where I have ever excused rape in any way shape or form. Try actually reading what I have written. Now you will excuse me if I discontinue this arguement. How about we agree to disagree and leave it at that?

Edited January 25, 2013 by pcpilot

[thodouras95 25]

Ok, I'll play the devils advocate here...

 

Well, Im curious...how well do they handle a 90 pound ruck? Can they keep up with the men on a 20 mile hike? From what I saw in the Guard, they could not. For those that say we use vehicles now, we did in WW2 and Korea and both times men were walking when the enemy set them on their heals, ie; chosin res. and bastogne just to name a few. Aphganistan has a hell of a lot of hiking with rucks; how do they do there? Ever had to slow and wait for them to catch up? I have no doubt women are smart enough. And yes, most jobs arent an issue, so dont give me that predjudice crap. I am asking valid questions. And yes, if they have a black belt they MIGHT be able to beat a man in one on one combat if he isnt similarily trained. But there is a reason women havent been in combat as a rule till now. And most women in combat units probably wont be blackbelts, hand to hand training aside. I have seen video after video of female cops in fights and their contribution hasnt seemed to be much more than getting in the way and screaming. I did see the females in my Natl Guard unit run at far slower times, saw several cheating, and heard a LOT of whining about how they couldnt hanfle being yelled at, etc. I saw our female battalion commander fall out of a stupid 2 mile run cause she couldnt hack it. I watched men breaking out of company run formations to run circles around the plattoons as we ran because it was not a challenge to run at the speed that enabled woment to keep up. I am not impressed. If we lower our standards as I have seen in the past we are NOT doing ourselves a service.

 

PS. Oh, and one more thing I'll point out. Since the so-called integration of women in the service, rape and harrassment has soared from what it was in 1980. There was another valid reason men and women were kept seperate in the military. Teenagers and 20 somethings are going to behave as they do no matter the rules. And I got news for ya, their behaviour hasnt gotten any better these last 20 years. But hey, as long as the feminists are happy...

 

 

I may be wrong, but in my eyes, all you've gotta do is "harden the f*ck up".Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think you're as strict as you were in, e.g. Vietnam nowadays.To that, you may add the "golden opportunity job" and overpromotion of joining the us armed forces.In my eyes, that's just picking up anyone who wants a decent-paying job (possibly with some action too) in the public sector.And not all of these people are suit for the military.

 

Pretty much the same goes for rape.If you pick up anyone, it's not that hard to find a pervert or two among them.

 

When did the things that you describe take place?

[+pcpilot 181]

I joined the Guard after being out of the military 12 years. This was 1996 to 2000. It was a bit of a shock I must say coming out of a male oriented Navy to integrated units. Being 55 and coming from a different era hasnt been easy with all the changes. You, and others who have posted, are of course correct that standards will apply that the females will need to meet. I just hope the standards arent watered down like they were in the 90's when women were first given a greater role. I just dont want to see our military combat effectiveness diminished. If has been a change in my thinking to recognize the contributions women have made and are making.

As for the rape issue, you are of course correct if I understand what you are saying correctly. But let me tell you a little story that affected my thinking. Back in 1978 I was stationed on the USS Independance CV-62 in Norfolk, Va. Next to us at pier 12 at the Naval Base was an another ship, possibly the USS Spears,though not sure. As I understood it at the time, this was the first ship to allow females in her crew. A webpage here..http://www.history.n...qs/faq48-3g.htm. A group of some 50+ females came aboard. Within a year, some half of them were pregnant. Needless to say, this behaviour in the crew caused some serious issues. Morale was affected because women were being kicked out of the service once they were pregant; this is what they did back then. Crew/ ship readiness declined because a good chunk of the crew was unable or unavailable to do the job. The initial response from most men at the time was this isnt going to work. Then over the intervening years I see women using the threat of harrassment to manipulate. Then trying to integrate women into a ships crew with new heads and berthing spaces, not to mention all the PC sensitivity crap sure seemed like a lot of trouble when it would have been simpler just to leave things the way they were. Then the issues I mentioned in the Guard. It hasnt been all a positive experiance. Espesially when people try to force it down your throat with a lot of PC gibberish.

But on the other hand I have seen the contributions many women have made. Heres another story for you...In that same Guard unit I was in, there was ONE woman who had my respect. She was a staff sgt. who was a former drill instructer. She was a single mom with two kids and another job. Yet she performed at a level most men would be envious of. She was a pro in every sense of the word. I told her one day that there was about 5 or 6 people in that company I wanted to be near if we ever saw combat and she was one of them.

I know, my previous comments about women sounds "caveman" to use a quote. In some ways I suppose it is. Ive struggled with the issue of gays in the military too. It just seems there are questions people arent fully considering when it comes to changes like this. You wouldnt believe where my mind has taken me this last 24 hours thinking about all this stuff. But I'll tell you what, Ive come a LOT further on these issues than most of you younger people ever dreamed of.

Edited January 25, 2013 by pcpilot

[JediMaster 451]

The problem is not so much "women" as it is "people trying to use/abuse the system." I think perhaps there might be more women who think they get in and use it as a crutch and not have to pull their weight than there are men. It's well known the ranks of the enlisted come from the "have nots", because they can't get in as officers with just high school.

By whining and crying discrimination they try and keep themselves out of "hard" jobs but also make themselves conspicuous, perhaps in the hopes of getting promotions and better benefits?

 

The people in the military are not magically different from the rest of the country. If x% of the country is lazy, you can bet close to x% of the military ranks are people trying to be as lazy as they can. The difference is in the private sector they get booted down to crappy jobs or have none, while in the military it's not so cut and dry and morale is hurt more.

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

With many women in the military, we shall see appearing several new military jobs. Sure, there are already military gynaecologists, and military dieteticians. But there would also a need for military fashion hairdressers, military manucurists, military dream interpreters, military astrologists...

[+SupGen 78]

Back in the 70's I served in the Army Infantry in Alaska in a straight-leg unit. No tracks, no trucks, you walked in the summer and skied in the winter. Mortar platoon, A Co, 1st Bn 60th Inf Regt. As a member of a Mortar unit, I, and everybody else had to carry an M-16, Load Bearing Equipment w/ ammo etc., large Alice pack, AND at least one part of the broken-down gun. Every piece of that f****n thing weighed 50-60 Lbs, and then of course there was also ammo for the gun; no point in humpin' that f***er if you didn't hump some rounds for it too. This was up and down the mountainous terrain of Alaska. At the time, I was 185 Lbs of hard-core and there were times I thought it was going to kill me. Thank god we didn't have combat to deal with as well. I hate to be the one to tell ya all this, but if there is a woman on this planet who can do what we did, I certainly haven't met her yet. Frankly, I don't think she exists. If someone can't hump their gear plus a base plate, or a gun tube, or a bipod; if they can't carry their share of ammo, somebody else has to do it. It's not only not fair to those who can, but it can be dangerous. When everyone is already stretched to the limit, asking people to pick up someone else's slack is just plain stupid. For this reason, if no other, no one has a "right" to serve in the front lines. To do what they can, yes. But not if they are going to be a burden in any way, in any measure, to anyone. Our military, for the most part, has not engaged in large scale, desperate, the issue-is-in-doubt combat since Vietnam, and before that Korea and WWII. And before you jump on me about that, read up on the Ia Drang, A Shau, the Frozen Chosin, the Bulge and don't leave out the Russian Front. Guy Sajer's The Forgotten Soldier will give you an interesting Frenchman-in-the-Wermacht perspective on desperation, for sure. In that kind of combat, any weakness, any distraction, any chink in your armor can spell the difference between victory and defeat, and more to the point, survival or death. The men at the tip of the spear have it hard enough without us making it harder on them so we can stroke ourselves and tell each other how enlightened we are. Fire away.

[+Viggen 540]

There were a couple of badass females in my platoon in basic. They were able to shoot, run, push, lead, and ruck march as well as us males.

[+pcpilot 181]

Back in the 70's I served in the Army Infantry in Alaska in a straight-leg unit. No tracks, no trucks, you walked in the summer and skied in the winter. Mortar platoon, A Co, 1st Bn 60th Inf Regt. As a member of a Mortar unit, I, and everybody else had to carry an M-16, Load Bearing Equipment w/ ammo etc., large Alice pack, AND at least one part of the broken-down gun. Every piece of that f****n thing weighed 50-60 Lbs, and then of course there was also ammo for the gun; no point in humpin' that f***er if you didn't hump some rounds for it too. This was up and down the mountainous terrain of Alaska. At the time, I was 185 Lbs of hard-core and there were times I thought it was going to kill me. Thank god we didn't have combat to deal with as well. I hate to be the one to tell ya all this, but if there is a woman on this planet who can do what we did, I certainly haven't met her yet. Frankly, I don't think she exists. If someone can't hump their gear plus a base plate, or a gun tube, or a bipod; if they can't carry their share of ammo, somebody else has to do it. It's not only not fair to those who can, but it can be dangerous. When everyone is already stretched to the limit, asking people to pick up someone else's slack is just plain stupid. For this reason, if no other, no one has a "right" to serve in the front lines. To do what they can, yes. But not if they are going to be a burden in any way, in any measure, to anyone. Our military, for the most part, has not engaged in large scale, desperate, the issue-is-in-doubt combat since Vietnam, and before that Korea and WWII. And before you jump on me about that, read up on the Ia Drang, A Shau, the Frozen Chosin, the Bulge and don't leave out the Russian Front. Guy Sajer's The Forgotten Soldier will give you an interesting Frenchman-in-the-Wermacht perspective on desperation, for sure. In that kind of combat, any weakness, any distraction, any chink in your armor can spell the difference between victory and defeat, and more to the point, survival or death. The men at the tip of the spear have it hard enough without us making it harder on them so we can stroke ourselves and tell each other how enlightened we are. Fire away.

 

You said it better than I did supgen. I got to talking with my wife today about this subject and she was blunt, "women have no place at the front!" lol!!! I had never talked with her about this before. It'll be interesting to see how they do carrying all the gear a airborne trooper carries in combat too. I read one article and the fellow talking had jumped at Normandy and said he had 135 lbs of gear. You show me the woman who can lug that, lol.

[+JonathanRL 973]

You show me the woman who can lug that, lol.

 

Come to Sweden. I will be happy to introduce you. I am sure the Israelis would be happy to introduce you to some as well. I cannot however guarantee that they will like you.

 

I hate to be the one to tell ya all this, but if there is a woman on this planet who can do what we did, I certainly haven't met her yet.

 

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Not to take anything from what you did, but few women has ever been given the chance to train to your standards and preform that duty.

Edited January 27, 2013 by JonathanRL

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

I read one article and the fellow talking had jumped at Normandy and said he had 135 lbs of gear. You show me the woman who can lug that, lol.

Before bio-engineering, women able to lift their man and break him in two, surely had some difficulties to find a steady partner and transmit their genes. So of course, there is not many of them nowadays.

 

I admit that the question of weight carrying capacity is a serious contra for admitting women in combat units. Anyone who is not able to carry quickly a wounded fellow to a secure place, whatever the distance and terrain, endangers such a unit. Of course, the argument falls in the case of all-female units gathering soldiers of similar weights. Such units also would have advantages on a logistic point of view ("Do we have here all the standard supplies to be sent to B Company's outpost? Yes Sir, and this time, we have not forgotten the extra two boxes of tampons for Corporal Jeehi Jane.")

[+SupGen 78]

This is from NeverEnough's post on the previous page. Read it!: http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

[+pcpilot 181]

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Not to take anything from what you did, but few women has ever been given the chance to train to your standards and preform that duty.

 

Beg to differ but they have been given that chance and ARE being given that chance even as we speak. The women I presume you are talking about in Sweden and Israel and the US are being given that chance right now. Tens of thousands of them here in the US. Read the article supgen has listed. Women have been given the chance for about 20 years now. Dont want to argue man but that anecdotal evidence both he and I posted is from experiance. Youve not been in the military. Youve not handled the gear and terrain we have as you yourself admitted. How is it you know that women can handle this level of physical activity? Youve seen pictures of women with large rucks on? Been to a base and actually experianced a 20 mile hike? I can tell you from experiance they as a rule cant. Again, sure there may be exceptions. I would dare say that as long as a woman CAN perform at that level then perhaps she could be allowed to become part of the unit. (Theres your concession) However, I challenge you to read the article posted above by a woman who has the experiance. So what if the Israelis and Sweden have women in the military, we do too. That doesnt mean they can perform at the level. Ive seen women with 90 pound rucks on. I walked among and with them. I can guarentee you they will struggle to make that 20 mile hike with that pack. Most of them will wind up in the back of a truck complaining of blisters and sore muscles, etc. etc. The handful that dont wind up in the truck will be over an hour behind the rest of the formation. A company that spread out is vulnerable to attack. Unit cohesion is disrupted. Command and control will be vastly complicated. Im sorry, men have those issues too but nearly all of them will finish the hike in a timely manner, Tell supgen again that a 5'4" 120 pound woman can carry the gear he did. Then again, what will the long term effects be on a female who carries this kind of weight over time? The experiance supgen, myself, and the Marine capt. in that article have had shows this issue with physical ability to be real. That, coupled with the other problems mentioned in this thread demonstrate that there are obsticals to the employment of women in combat units, bottom line. As vitally important as civil rights are in America, they are not the holy grail, common sense should be. You can still recognize everyones' rights and still demonstrate common sense.

Edited January 27, 2013 by pcpilot

[+JonathanRL 973]

How is it you know that women can handle this level of physical activity? Youve seen pictures of women with large rucks on? Been to a base and actually experianced a 20 mile hike? I can tell you from experiance they as a rule cant.

 

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

 

The reason I know is very, very simple. Not all men can do it. Not all women can do it. It takes a certain kind of people, and Gender does not enter into it. We as a society are used to seeing female soldiers as something exotic like in the Amazon myths; with "women and children" the thing men are to protect. This is something that goes back to the days of the Greeks and the Middle Ages - Women are the weaker sex (with the Greeks not even bothering to find them sexually equal to males). The same mentality can be found in some middle eastern countries. Yet it has clearly been proven that women are just as able in all fields as men, given a equal chance.

 

Regarding inabilities in the way of physical performance, you may want to check up stories and reports of the conscription armies of history. There was always a good number of soldiers who just did not cut it.

 

I would dare say that as long as a woman CAN perform at that level then perhaps she could be allowed to become part of the unit. (Theres your concession)

 

Change this into I would dare say that as long as a somebody CAN perform at the level required then he or she is to be allowed to become part of the unit and you have my standpoint in a nutshell and that is my final say in this debate.

 

I hope you have a good day.

 

I would however wish to correct an error on my part. In my social setting, the word deranged and its Swedish equivalent is used in a more jokingly manner, but after looking it up, I have come to the conclusion that it was offensive of me to call you as such. I therefore extend my sincere apologies for calling you deranged.

Edited January 27, 2013 by JonathanRL

[+pcpilot 181]

Yep, I agree, there are men who dont perform at that level, always has been. But again, I think we'll agree to disagree on the main topic. Women as a whole, in my experiance and opinion, do not perform physically at the level men do and should not as a rule be allowed into combat units if for no other reason than that. Whether I like it or not, they are being given the opportunity to demonstrate what they can do which I agree is important. But just like I understand I can no longer function at that level due to being older, or someone recognizes they would never make a good pilot because of poor vision; whatever the reality of a given situation, the reality in this situation is that women are the weaker sex no matter how we spin it. And it probably wouldnt hurt if they recognize that. That does not make them wrong or less able to perform other jobs and functions. Men have recognized thier limitations for centuries. You stated you recognized you couldnt perform at that level so stayed out of military service. That is seeing reality and there is nothing wrong with that. You went on to function no doubt more than adaquately in some other field. Look, I appreciate your viewpoint and to say it honestly, it has given me something to think about. I like to think that that is what people do, they discuss things. The old saying two heads are better than one always applies. And issues like this require we all think about it and add our thoughts. And Jonathan, thank you for the apology, I appreciate that too.

Edited January 27, 2013 by pcpilot

[thodouras95 25]

Beg to differ but they have been given that chance and ARE being given that chance even as we speak. The women I presume you are talking about in Sweden and Israel and the US are being given that chance right now. Tens of thousands of them here in the US. Read the article supgen has listed. Women have been given the chance for about 20 years now. Dont want to argue man but that anecdotal evidence both he and I posted is from experiance. Youve not been in the military. Youve not handled the gear and terrain we have as you yourself admitted. How is it you know that women can handle this level of physical activity? Youve seen pictures of women with large rucks on? Been to a base and actually experianced a 20 mile hike? I can tell you from experiance they as a rule cant. Again, sure there may be exceptions. I would dare say that as long as a woman CAN perform at that level then perhaps she could be allowed to become part of the unit. (Theres your concession) However, I challenge you to read the article posted above by a woman who has the experiance. So what if the Israelis and Sweden have women in the military, we do too. That doesnt mean they can perform at the level. Ive seen women with 90 pound rucks on. I walked among and with them. I can guarentee you they will struggle to make that 20 mile hike with that pack. Most of them will wind up in the back of a truck complaining of blisters and sore muscles, etc. etc. The handful that dont wind up in the truck will be over an hour behind the rest of the formation. A company that spread out is vulnerable to attack. Unit cohesion is disrupted. Command and control will be vastly complicated. Im sorry, men have those issues too but nearly all of them will finish the hike in a timely manner, Tell supgen again that a 5'4" 120 pound woman can carry the gear he did. Then again, what will the long term effects be on a female who carries this kind of weight over time? The experiance supgen, myself, and the Marine capt. in that article have had shows this issue with physical ability to be real. That, coupled with the other problems mentioned in this thread demonstrate that there are obsticals to the employment of women in combat units, bottom line. As vitally important as civil rights are in America, they are not the holy grail, common sense should be. You can still recognize everyones' rights and still demonstrate common sense.

 

 

You took this deep, I'll dive in as well.

 

For me, it all comes down to stereotypes.These say that a man needs some muscle, but also say that women are the weak ones that aren't supposed to be as strong as us.Find a woman willing to do the job, you'll get your trooper.And it will be just as good as your phallus-equipped fellows, if not better.

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Quote from poster above,"Our military, for the most part, has not engaged in large scale, desperate, the issue-is-in-doubt combat since Vietnam." Whoever said that quote is full of s**t and has obviously been living under a rock for the last 13 years. Do not try to tell other people what their combat experience was like. Most especially if you have never experienced battle yourself. You will just make a fool of yourself. As a 20 year retired senior NCO with three wars under my belt I say, "You go Girl!" If you can hang you are more than welcome in the Maneuver Warfare Branch.