Anti-Camel-Trick

[Olham 164]

Ages ago I read somewhere, that a pilot used this trick, when a Camel was after him.

He first went into a right-turn-dive, from which he pulled out into a left-round-climb.

(I hope I remember it correctly)

 

Does anyone here know, who said this, and if there is any more of this pilot's tricks

in the internet?

[Hauksbee 103]

That sounds like a very dicey move that would want to become a spin...if he were flying a similar rotary engined plane. If he were flying an in-line, it might be a good tactic to suck the Camel into a spin.

[MAKO69 186]

Woops! I thought you guys were talkin bout somthin else.

[Olham 164]

If he were flying an in-line, it might be a good tactic to suck the Camel into a spin.

 

He was flying Albatros; forgot to mention.

[Hauksbee 103]

He was flying Albatros; forgot to mention.

Should have known!

[Shiloh 12]

I guess the best thing would be to try it in Quick Combat and see what happens.

[RamblingSid 3]

Ah, a cunning plan...

 

surely any camel pilot worth his salt would simply

break off, maintain altitude and wait for the alb to

come back and play ?

 

So my counter would be: as the EA dives left,

initiate climbing right turn, when EA climbs right,

roll out of turn which, with luck, will put you above

and behind target. Quite a bit of luck in my case.

 

RS

[Hellshade 110]

Ages ago I read somewhere, that a pilot used this trick, when a Camel was after him.

He first went into a right-turn-dive, from which he pulled out into a left-round-climb.

(I hope I remember it correctly)

 

 

Let me get this straight. In this hypothetical scenerio, the Bosch pilot sees the Camel...and then lives long enough to actually do something about it?!?

 

*ponders a moment*

 

Nope. Just can't wrap my head around it.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Hellshade

[Olham 164]

...surely any camel pilot worth his salt would simply break off, maintain altitude and wait for the alb

to come back and play ?

 

Yes, and if the Alb comes back, it does so with guns pointing forward at the Camel.

That's the trick.

 

So my counter would be: as the EA dives left...

 

You got it wrong - the Alb dives right and then climbs left - a move the Camel

couldn't follow very well, due to the immense force of the torque effect.

The Camel turned great to the right, and absolutely bad to the left.

(An effect which isn't represented very much in any flight sim - Camels

are usually far too easy to handle IMHO)

 

Let me get this straight. In this hypothetical scenerio, the Bosch pilot sees the Camel...

...and then lives long enough to actually do something about it?!?

 

They were not such over-experienced aces like us, with countless victories

and hundreds of own deaths on the slate.

 

.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Olham

[rjw 48]

...The Camel turned great to the right, and absolutely bad to the left.

(An effect which isn't represented very much in any flight sim - Camels

are usually far too easy to handle IMHO)

 

In response to your quote Olham, I can't speak at all to performance of the real camel and you may be correct in your statement "An effect which isn't represented very much in any flight sim". I will however say that in my experiences flying the camel in OFF I find the camel turn very quickly to the right with the advantage of losing altitude as the torque wants the camel to spiral down to the right, but it also makes the camel want to climb very rapidly in a hard left turn and you have to work hard to keep her down. Both these moves have decided advantages and would work well in keeping up with the albatros in the scenario that is being put forward in this thread.

 

I have had no difficulty so far in out turning an albatross, even in a left turn. You just have to be gentle and not make any snap motions and she will not falter and spin.

In other words, start the turn gently and then press slowly towards agressive..

 

Those are my views, but I would suspect that Louvert could put a conclusion to this discussion for all.

 

Best Regards;

[Olham 164]

... flying the camel in OFF I find the camel turn very quickly to the right with the advantage of losing altitude as the torque wants the camel to spiral down to the right,

but it also makes the camel want to climb very rapidly in a hard left turn and you have to work hard to keep her down.

 

True, this behaviour of descending to the right and climbing to the left is represented in OFF.

(I tried the Camel only once in RoF and didn't notice any tricky torque effects there at all.

Their Camel is a totally faked super fighter.)

 

But the left turn of the real Camel was so much slower, that the veterans would rather perform

a 3/4 right turn instead of a 1/4 left turn or so I read.

I don't know if I remembered the tactic from post #1 correct. From how you describe the torque effect,

it would make more sense to dive in a left turn, and then to climb in a right turn.

 

I also hope Lou knows some better.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Olham

[Hellshade 110]

They were not such over-experienced aces like us, with countless victories

and hundreds of own deaths on the slate.

.

 

I was just playing the part of the over-confident, bravado filled Allied pilot. :)

Edited February 14, 2013 by Hellshade

[Hauksbee 103]

I was just playing the part of the over-confident, bravado filled Allied pilot. ..

...and we need all we can get.

[Olham 164]

I was just playing the part of the over-confident, bravado filled Allied pilot. :)

 

Ah! Errh - okay then...

You muszt know zatt uss Dsherrmans do nott have ze same humour.

But now I understand - you mean you vere playink ze role of der hotspursz

ve are shootink down all day? Now I gott itt! Ssank you!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Interesting discussion, and since my name has been mentioned as regards this topic let me jump in.

 

To Olham's originally posted scenario in which an Alb pilot has a Camel after him and the Alb pilot initiates a right-hand diving turn: Assuming the Camel is co-alt with the Alb, or higher, any Camel jockey worth his salt, (to quote RamblingSid), is going to wait a moment for the Alb to lose altitude in the turn and begin to pass beneath the Camel, at which point the Camel is going to go hard right and dive onto the Alb’s tail. One toasted Alb going right down.

 

To the second posted scenario in which the Alb pilot, in the same situation, initiates a left-hand diving turn: Again, the Camel pilot is going to wait a moment for the Alb to give up alt and close the gap and, again, is going to go hard right and dive onto the Alb’s tail. One toasted Alb going left down.

 

Any Camel pilot who would get sucked into a situation where a co-alt or lower Alb, which he is pursuing, suddenly turns the tables to the point where he can get a gun solution on the Camel ... well ... said Camel pilot deserves everything he gets.

 

 

BTW Hauksbee, nice images!

 

.

Edited February 15, 2013 by RAF_Louvert

[Dej 17]

I'm with Lou from my own experience of flying Camels in OFF. Never give up the height advantage in a rotary-engine machine against an inline-engined opponent of comparable speed. Personally, I might well wait until the Albatros attempts to climb back up before dropping onto its tail... assuming no other threats.

 

However, there is a quasi-historical backup to Olham's proposition. In one of the Biggles stories he encounters an Albatros pilot who has perfected some sort of turn which has allied scout pilots baffled. Now, I know W. E. Johns wasn't a scout pilot, and the adventures he creates for Biggles weren't his own, but nevertheless I'd hazard there was some rumour of a camel-defeating tactic he'd heard of which was behind that particular story,

Edited February 16, 2013 by Dej

[RamblingSid 3]

Yes, and if the Alb comes back, it does so with guns pointing forward at the Camel.

That's the trick.

 

 

 

You got it wrong - the Alb dives right and then climbs left - a move the Camel

couldn't follow very well, due to the immense force of the torque effect.

The Camel turned great to the right, and absolutely bad to the left.

(An effect which isn't represented very much in any flight sim - Camels

are usually far too easy to handle IMHO)

 

 

 

 

.

 

Do apologise for misreading your post, Olham.

 

+1 what RAF Louvert/rjw said.

 

Dej, I remember that story - something to do with a bunt (outside loop) ?

But could you pull off such a stunt in a Albatros ? Any thoughts, Olham ?

 

RS

Edited February 16, 2013 by RamblingSid

[Olham 164]

Well, you guys say, you'd "wait above the Albatros and get at it's tail".

But the Albatros isn't there anymore.

When it performs a left-turn descend, I understand the Camel pilot would find it too hard to follow.

So what would he do? Stay at his altitude and perform a 3/4 right turn to get into the right position?

Meanwhile the Albatros (which was faster than the Camel in a dive) would be quite a bit further away.

Now of course he wouldn't have to perform the right-turn climb to, when the Camel did not follow

the left-turn descend. But he should have gained a distance between him and the Camel.

 

The Alb only turns so long, until the pilot can see, if the Camel follows or not.

If the Camel follows, he continues with part two - the right-turn climb.

If she doesn't follow, he would no longer turn, but fly away straight from her, while she performs

her 3/4 right round turn.

 

Only if the Camel tries (and halfways manages) to follow his left-turn descend (which the pilot could

only do with fully kicked left rudder plus stick hard left, I guess - only then would he change into

a right-turn climb. If the Camel pilot would now suddenly change from full left rudder plus stick left,

into a right turn - then I assume the chance that he would overturn to the right (gyroscopic effect

and torque) and run downwards would be pretty good.

 

Useless to compare that with flight sim Camels - they are all still too gentle to handle IMHO.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Olham

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Olham, the RL Camel could snap turn 180 degress to the right in little more than it's own length and want to dive in the process if you let it. In your scenario the Alb goes left and dives and that's not a bad idea as he can now get under the Camel and build speed, but that is not going to help him much. The Camel pilot will wait just a moment or two to keep the alt advantage and then is going to snap turn 180 degress right and dive, which puts him right back behind the Alb. Yes, the Alb now has speed and more room to maneuver but it will do him little good if he attempts to come back up to engage the Camel as the Camel is now above him with guns pointed in his general direction. Any move the Alb pilot tries in that situation, other than continuing to dive out of the fight and run away, is going to get him shot to pieces. You suggest that, if the Camel follows, the Alb pilot should continue on into a right turn climb, but at this point in the game the Camel is still above the Alb with plenty of room to follow every move the Alb now makes. Add to that the Alb is now climbing and burning off air speed and playing directly into the Camel's favorite strength, turning right. As I said before, unless the Camel jockey is very green, the Alb is toast.

 

.

Edited February 16, 2013 by RAF_Louvert

[rjw 48]

.

 

Olham, the RL Camel could snap turn 180 degress to the right in little more than it's own length and want to dive in the process if you let it. In your scenario the Alb goes left and dives and that's not a bad idea as he can now get under the Camel and build speed, but that is not going to help him much. The Camel pilot will wait just a moment or two to keep the alt advantage and then is going to snap turn 180 degress right and dive, which puts him right back behind the Alb. Yes, the Alb now has speed and more room to maneuver but it will do him little good if he attempts to come back up to engage the Camel as the Camel is now above him with guns pointed in his general direction. Any move the Alb pilot tries in that situation, other than continuing to dive out of the fight and run away, is going to get him shot to pieces. You suggest that, if the Camel follows, the Alb pilot should continue on into a right turn climb, but at this point in the game the Camel is still above the Alb with plenty of room to follow every move the Alb now makes. Add to that the Alb is now climbing and burning off air speed and playing directly into the Camel's favorite strength, turning right. As I said before, unless the Camel jockey is very green, the Alb is toast.

 

.

 

 

Lou;

 

In the sim I have not found it difficult to match the alb in left hand turns. I do bleed off speed if I let the camel use her inherent desire to climb in that turn and I have to be sure not to puchs the turn to hard as she doesn't like it. What say you on this and how it might relate to reality (the real camel),

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Robert, the OFF Camel, (and in fact every sim Camel ever built), is far too forgiving when going left, IMHO. From all actual pilot accounts it was quicker to go 3/4 turn to the right than it was to go a 1/4 turn to the left, as has been mentioned here already. In RL it would not be wise to go left in the Camel unless you had time and alt to spare and were in no danger of being shot at. That being said, your outline of the left turn in the OFF Camel is spot on.

 

.

[rjw 48]

.

 

Robert, the OFF Camel, (and in fact every sim Camel ever built), is far too forgiving when going left, IMHO. From all actual pilot accounts it was quicker to go 3/4 turn to the right than it was to go a 1/4 turn to the left, as has been mentioned here already. In RL it would not be wise to go left in the Camel unless you had time and alt to spare and were in no danger of being shot at. That being said, your outline of the left turn in the OFF Camel is spot on.

 

.

 

Thnaks Lou for setting things straight. I wonder if the boys have addressed these OFF Camel short comings in WOFF!

 

Best Regards;

[Olham 164]

....it will do him little good if he attempts to come back up to engage the Camel

as the Camel is now above him with guns pointed in his general direction. Any

move the Alb pilot tries in that situation, other than continuing to dive out of the

fight and run away, is going to get him shot to pieces.

 

Makes perfect sense to me, Lou - so I can only guess it was an evasive manoeuvre

for a withdrawal of the Albatros. I wish I could remember who wrote it, and where I

have read it. Seems no one else here has.