Holy Brisfit!

[Shiloh 12]

I was surprised to find out yesterday just how formidable the Brisfit can be in an aerial dual. I was flying my Fokker D.VII with Jasta 5 when we happened upon 6 Brisfits against my flight of 5. They dove on us without hesitation and took out one of my flight within 10 seconds. The fighting quickly became scattered and I found myself in some of the most challenging fights I can remember. The Brisfit easily out-turned my D.VII and was able to get behind me multiple times on right-hand turns in particular. I was dumbfounded.

 

With a D.VII I can get the best of Spads, SE5a's, Camels and Triplanes but this Brisfit gave me as much as I could handle. I was able to get behind them often enough only to be pelted by the rear gunner. Then they would out-turn me to the right and get behind me again. Their turn radius was much smaller than mine - for such a large craft? I was able to down 2 of them before getting engaged in a low-level slug-it-out with 2 more. I finally collided with one as I was trying to prevent it from out-turning me on the inside again and I was captured for the remainder of the war.

 

I started up another campaign with Jasta 5 and 15 minutes into my first flight the Brisfits jumped us again. I was able to down one but took some damage from the rear-gunner. Than I got pelted from the side and I went into a steep dive to almost ground-level and the Brisfit stayed on my tail and pelted me some more. I was able to crash-land in a field. I can't remember being roughed-up like that in a D.VII.

 

I started a campaign with RFC-48 just to test this bird out and I did well before colliding with an Alb.D.III in my first scrap. I may try a QC fight against some D.VII's and see what happens.

 

A few questions: Is this an accurate representation of just how tough the Brisfit was? In real life can they out-turn a D.VII?

Edited April 11, 2013 by Shiloh

[Shiloh 12]

I just QC'd a 6 vs 6 pitting Brisfits against D.VII's. Flying the Brisfit, I was able to down two D.VII's without suffering any damage to my own craft. I stayed on their tails - for the most part - despite their maneuvers to shake me. My tail gunner's fire was pretty accurate and he definitely contributed to the first kill. I noticed the Brisfit does a pretty nifty flip type of turn to switch directions quickly. I wasn't able to try and out-turn the D.VII as the computer AI never really stayed in a consistent turn long enough for me to test it.

 

I haven't tested this enough to draw a solid conclsuion but my first impressions are the Brisfit is more than a match for the D.VII in OFF. There are many more experienced pilots here than myself so I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[gaw 5]

love these threads.....it seems the micro advantage each side alternately engineered as the war went on... tipped the scales a bit....but pilot skill aside...the planes I guess trumped each other in tiny increments that never-the-less were the deciding factor between life or death. Can't wait for p4 to see this stuff better than ever. The big decision....when I'm on German patrol in a D7....is to engage...(screw the consequences) a flight of Bristols....or give 'em a miss (lame....but sensible)....and find easier prey. Glad I'm in an an armchair with any number of do-overs instead of 10,000 feet over the lines....spoiling for action. Back in the day...at 20+.....they didn't have to worry about co-signing the kids first house loan application. We pick our battles...or perhaps they're presented to us....whatever...good luck

Edited April 11, 2013 by gaw

[Olham 164]

Well, firstly, the Brisfit really was - after they decided to use it like a fighter - more than a match

for German scouts and they could sure hold their own.

I'm no flyer of the D.VII, but the Fokker should be at least as agile as the Albatros, I think.

And when I fly the Albatros, the Brisfit can not get behind me, but I get behind them.

 

But: attacking them from behind can be suicide!

So my only working strategy is to fire long range deflection bursts to damage and hamper them.

And only when they show effect, I go closer. Then I try to hit the rear gunner. Only when that is

done successfully, you can safely "kill the beast". The Brisfit is the only E/A in OFF that often

uses up all my ammunition for one single craft.

[Shiloh 12]

Well said Gaw. The layers of this sim and the matchups in the real war are amazing and you never really know how things are going to pan out sometimes. You either go for it or you don't but either way there are odds to consider and experience factors in as well. I hadn't really fought too many Brisfits so I think I underestimated them...until now.

 

That's a good strategy there Olham. I've used that technique before on other craft, but like you said, it burns through ammo awful quick. I think the Brisfit was able to out-turn me perhaps because it was able to stay stable while throttled down. It seems almost as if I was overshooting it when it turned due to my speed but every time I throttled down, I risked meeting the ground because my D.VII couldn't hold it's altitude.

 

With Jasta 5 I've met up with them twice in four flights so I'm sure I'll meet them again and learn more. And then by flying the Brisfit in QC or campaign, I can learn that much more about it's characteristics and capabilities.

 

I'm wondering if there are any stats available that tell how certain craft did against others in WWI dogfights. Such as in 71 engagments, Fokker D.VII craft lost 32 craft as opposed to 45 for Brisfits. It doesn't necessarily account for pilot skill or one-sided advantages in numbers but it could give an indication of how certain craft performed against others.

[Olham 164]

I think the Brisfit was able to out-turn me perhaps because it was able to stay stable while throttled down.

It seems almost as if I was overshooting it when it turned due to my speed but every time I throttled down,

I risked meeting the ground because my D.VII couldn't hold it's altitude.

 

I only throttle down anymore when a craft is slower than mine.

When I fight a beast like the Brisfit, I fly full speed all the time, so I don't loose forward energy.

Use other ways of curving; and most of all: use the vertical space as well.

When the big Bristol comes in behind you, you could make a half-roll and pull the elevator.

That way you get into the opposite course very quick.

I doubt that the bigger craft could follow that so quick.

 

You cause the biggest problem for an E/A, when you don't fly away from it, but towards it.

Even if it's not an attack - you may only dive through under them. But they find it hard to follow,

and also hard to shoot at you.

Just put yourself into that position: an E/A always turns towards you, passing over or under your craft.

It make me nervous, cause he always only gives me the shortest times possible to shoot at him.

 

And important: don't fly away from them in the wrong moment - approach them, and only gain

distance or height, when you leave their turn with an advantage.

Like, when you cut into their left turn firing, then you leave the turn by just widening your own turn,

so that you slip out of theirs. In such a moment you may also be able to regain some altitude.

 

It took me a long time, until I realised how to handle the Bristol Fighter.

And all my theory will only help a little - you'll have to try and find out.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Olham

[Shiloh 12]

As always Olham thanks for the care and attention you put into helping me out. I like how you call it the "beast"...I tend to agree.

 

I'm going to start a campaign with RFC-48 so I can fly the Brisfit on a regular basis. I've found my best learning in OFF has been connected to the fact that I've flown almost every craft in QC or in campaign so I can learn it's characteristics whether flying that craft, or in flying against it. The Brisfit is not a craft I've faced many times so I think it caught me a bit off guard. I can only imagine how the pilots felt when they faced a new craft in the skies and didn't quite know how to go about defeating them.

 

I will report back here with my findings as hopefully I can learn some new tactics through this experience. Thanks again and congrats on 15,000 posts!

Edited April 12, 2013 by Shiloh

[Hasse Wind 46]

There was a reason why the Brisfit was kept in service until the early 1930s.

[Shiloh 12]

There was a reason why the Brisfit was kept in service until the early 1930s.

 

True Hasse Wind. I understand fourteen squadrons were flying it by the end of the war. Here's a great writeup on the Brisfit and I've pulled a few excerpts.

 

Then it suddenly became not merely aggressive but aggressive at both ends, twisting and turning and pumping out lead to targets at front and rear. The crews of these big two-seaters were in the summer of 1917 among the fastest scorers on the Western Front. For example, Capt McKeever and his observer scored almost all their 30 confirmed victories while still flying the original F-2A. Indeed, the Bristol was soon held in such respect that, except for the very top crack' circuses, it became a general rule for German pilots never to attack a formation of more than three Bristols, no matter how great their own numerical advantage might be.

 

One pilot, Major Oliver Stewart wrote, 'The pilot could enter a dogfight and turn almost as quickly and on almost as small a radius as the best single-seater. He could fling his machine about, go into vertical dives, pull it out quickly, turn it on its back, spin it, roll it and generally do every sort of maneuver if the need arose. And all the time there was the comfortable feeling that the observer was there with his pair of Lewis guns, watching and protecting.

 

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/aircraft/Bristol-F2b.html

[Olham 164]

Fifteenthousand post - you're right, Shiloh! And no warning point?!

I guess I must let my "dark side" act out here more - Mmuahahahahaaaa!!!

[Shiloh 12]

You are a legend Olham and at least 500 of those posts were helping me out.

 

Back to business, I started a campaign with RFC-48, Spring 1917 flying the Brisfit and my first flight was a treat.

 

Just 10 minutes in we were jumped by 10 or so Alb.D.III's from Jasta 3. They were swarming all over us so I dove aggressively after one to the shelf. I found we had an advantage there as the Albs couldn't energy-fight down low.

 

Then I tried an interesting tactic to stay behind them. At times, I throttled way down to stay behind them and my crate was amazingly stable at very low speeds. I was close to stalling and still stable. Perhaps it's because of the large wings? Then the Alb would be right next to or just adjacent to and my gunner would pelt him with bullets. The Alb didn't seem to be able to stay stable at these low speeds and had to throttle back up and I could stay behind. If the Alb turned into me, I was nimble-enough to match his turn.

 

I worked this same tactic over-and-over again and was able down 4 Albs in maybe 10 minutes. I was working on a 5th when I caught a random bullet in my engine and was forced down.

[Olham 164]

I dove aggressively after one to the shelf. I found we had an advantage there as the Albs couldn't energy-fight down low.

 

Good point; for all who fly turn-fighters too! Lure an Albatros down to tree-top level, and you can sack him.

 

I was working on a 5th when I caught a random bullet in my engine and was forced down.

 

Maybe you were a bit too greedy? Four Albatros...! Wait, when you come my way next time...!

[Shiloh 12]

 

Maybe you were a bit too greedy? Four Albatros...! Wait, when you come my way next time...!

 

Let me know where you'll be Olham and I'll steer 50 miles clear of that place.

[Olham 164]

Mmuahahahahahaaaa!!!!!

[MudWasp48 3]

Glad I read this thread. She is a good turn fighter and carries a med-large bomb load too.

[Olham 164]

Once the British had learnt to use this craft like a fighter, it must have been a hell of an opponent.

[Shiloh 12]

Glad I read this thread. She is a good turn fighter and carries a med-large bomb load too.

 

She's a beast to fight against and if you join up with RFC-48 when they first were assigned Brisfits, you should have some time to get used to her before facing tougher birds. Initially, one of the tougher opponents you'll face are Alb.D.III's and with some experience you should be able to handle them.

[MudWasp48 3]

Thats what I did Shiloh

Bagged a few albatrosses too

 

And with that compass location, I always know which direction I'm flying

[Shiloh 12]

Give those Albs hell Mudwasp but don't tell Olham - he's very touchy about these things.

[Olham 164]

I heard it all! Better beware - one day you may meet an Albatros you can't get into your gunsight!

And it's favourite meal is wings with roundels!

[Shiloh 12]

*Gulp* Now I've done it!

[MudWasp48 3]

Yep, you're in for it now!

 

This plane is a great all around crate. It can bomb and it can dogfight!

[MudWasp48 3]

The birds from Jasta 18 were so pretty, I almost forgot to squeeze the trigger. Purple-bluish tails and body with a red nose. Snow/rain in April with high winds made for some crazy dogfighting. Then Jasta 2 came in out of nowhere, we made for the wasteland and I got popped by AA and just barely made over the line. Now I'm in da hospital...

 

Good Fun is this game/sim !!!!!

[Olham 164]

Jasta 18 are a dangerous lot. They will later have red/white planes - red front section,

white rear and tail plane, with black emblems like a raven.

 

I admire you British flyers! Crossing the lines almost every day - a tough and straining job.

[Shiloh 12]

Good stuff MudWasp! Jasta 18 and Jasta 2 come to fight and you did the right thing in booking it out of there. Say hello to that cute nurse, I'm sure I've been in there before.