Remember, Remember The First of September...

[SFP1Ace 33]

On that day, as Polish children went to schools to start a new semester after the summer break, the Luftwaffe began happily bombing Polish cities. World War 2 had begun...

[MigBuster 2,884]

Is that a well known saying in Poland for that event?

[SFP1Ace 33]

Nope, but I think it suits it well. Plus it may resonate better with Anglo-Saxons.

Edited September 1, 2013 by SFP1Ace

[+Gepard 11,304]

If you watch old documentary movies or look at photos taken on 1.September 1939 at Paris, Berlin, London you will see only worried faces. There was no war euphoria all around. But if you see photos taken at Warsaw you will see euphoric people who were very confident, that Poland will win the war. War euphoria, dreams of a successfull big cavalry battle near Berlin, dreams of victorious war.

This changed some days later dramatically, but on 1.September Poland was the happiest state in Europe.

The polish people payed a very bitter price for the mistakes of their political and military leaders.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Gepard

[MigBuster 2,884]

The polish people payed a very bitter price for the mistakes of their political and military leaders.

 

 

What would you say were the main mistakes apart from over confidence?

 

 

I expect they thought it might be another trench warfare attrition affair (as WW1)

[+Gepard 11,304]

The most important mistake was to change the sides in summer 1939.

For Hitler was Poland an ally. In 1934 they had a non-aggression pact which was prolonges in 1938 (or so). Poland supported Nazi Germany during the Sudeten Crisis and was rewarded with czech territory in early 1939. For Hitler Poland was an ally who he needed for his planed war against Soviet-Empire.

Poland was in Summer 1939 in a very comfortable position. The western alliance(France+UK) and Germany vied for polish alliance.

The polish Foreign minister Colonel Beck, made following calculation:

If a war between France and Germany comes (and he will come) how Poland should act? There were two ways: 1. ally of Germany, 2. ally of France and Britain.

What will happen in first case?

France and Britain and the Benelux contries will fight and they will allied with Sovietrussia against Poland and Germany. The german polish alliance will have 5 million soldiers (4 german, 1 polish). France, Britain and the Benelux will have 4 million soldiers, plus 5 million soviet troops. What means 9:5 against polish, german alliance. Sounds unhealthy.

What will happen in second case?

Germany will have 4 million soldiers, a western alliance + Poland will have 5 million soldiers. The SovietUnion will never allied with Germany, because communists and fascists are like fire and water. So the power ballance is 4:5 against Germany, which favors Poland. Germany is encircled by Entente states and will lose, because all of his supply lines will be cut. Its only a question of time.

So Colonel Beck decided to ally with France and UK.

For Hitler Poland become a traitor state. And traitors must be punished. As you see how Hitler acted. The polish people lost (if i remember right) 6 million. A terrible price for the wrong decision of the politicians.

 

But who in mid summer 1939 would have forseen that Hitler and Stalin would ally?

 

So Poland was circled by Germany and Sovietunion, instead circeling Germany together with France and UK. Not 4:5 against Germany but 9:1 against Poland.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Gepard

[+Jug 99]

Actually, at the time, the Polish politicians made a prudent decision.  As you said, "But who in mid summer 1939 would have foreseen that Hitler and Stalin would ally?"  The only other alternative would have been to declare neutrality, but Poland was in the warpath between Russia and Germany and neutrality is not respected by despots intent on conquering the world (look at the Japanese actions on the other side of the planet at the time).  A dictator always needs a war to excuse the brutal control atrocities he/she is committing against his/her own people in the name of national unity (Syria and Iraq chemical attacks, Russian purges, German guillotine victims, and on and on throughout history), so if a convenient war is not cooking, all dictators will start one (Iraq/Iran, the Falklands crisis, and on and on throughout history). 

 

The only reason that Switzerland was allowed to keep their neutrality during WWII was that they were not on the warpath (and the Axis despots had to have someplace to stash their loot).  Sweden was allowed to keep their neutrality because the Germany had Norway, but it was only a matter of time before they turned their attentions to Sweden.  The war at that point took some bad turns for the Axis and the issue never arrived, but I'll bet there were some German plans to take Sweden too.

 

Poland is a beautiful country, filled with wonderful people, and, at that time, were represented by good people in their government, but their country was just in the way.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Jug

[SFP1Ace 33]

The polish people payed a very bitter price for the decisions of Hitler who was elected by the Germans

 Here, I corrected it for you $!@# revisionist....

Edited September 1, 2013 by SFP1Ace

[+Gepard 11,304]

LOL. False quoting is a criminal act.

I know its difficult to argue with polish people about our common history. The polish "lie" to themself is, that they declare themself as innocent victims. For the polish people it is true, no doubt. But not for the polish leadership at this time.

The polish leadership was extremly nationalistic (the german too). The polish leadership was antisemitic (the german too, but much more). The polish leadership was anti communistic (the german too, but not as much as the polish). And the polish leadership dreamed of "Great Poland in the borders of 1706". Hitler dreamed of "livespace in the east". German and polish leadership had had a lot in common. And both sides wanted the war. The only question was, who would be the enemy.

 

Imagine, what could have happen if Poland would have choosen the other option and would have stayed non formal or even declared ally of NaziGermany.

A german attack on Poland would not have happen. So no reason for France and Britan to declare war to Germany. And in 1940 a common german, polish, hungarian, romanian, slovakian attack on the SovietUnion.

Would France or/and Britain declare a war to Germany and allies to protect the red evil empire? Or would they have leaned back and does nothing, only to see how the two big dictatorships would destroy each other.

.

No nice scenario, i know.

.

.

and BTW Ace. My grandfather fought as polish soldier against Hitler. He lived in the polish corridor as polish citizen of german nationality and served out his time as Jefreitor in the polish Army. He came as POW in a POW camp near Magdeburg. He was lucky to get POW by germans. An uncle of him was captured by the Red Army. His path ended at Katyn. I think as polish you know what happend there.

After the war the "thank you" of the polish fatherland for his faithfull service in the polish Army was the eviction of my grandfather and his family in summer 1945, from land what was owned of centuries by my family. At this trek a lot of people died, killed by polish. And to be honest, there were some polish people too, who saved lives of refugees.

War crime is evil, post war crimes are much more evil.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Gepard

[Ngr 105]

I would remind you that this forum is mainly for sharing aviation with the subject, rather than spreading over the history of the world and Europe. This was how it was, and we end the discussion on this topic.  SFP1Ace would just remind you that the 1st of September 1939 launched aggression on Poland by Nazi Germany and much of this topic.

 

Glory and honor fallen heroes and soldiers of all sides of the war, most more terrible war in the history of the world.

[SFP1Ace 33]

Firstly hats off to your grandfather, for being a loyal citizen and a soldier, what happened to him was one of countless travesties committed before, during and after the war on people, by people. I truly am sorry for him, the only ones that should have been expelled were  only the usurpers and colonizers, like Erika Steinbach and her old  folks. Expulsion of Germans for Poland & Czechoslovakia was a revenge-type consequence of a lost war, same happened with 2 millions of Poles expelled from eastern Poland, after it was annexed by the Soviet Union. Call it a consequence of a shifting borders - both Poland and Germany were forced to shift their territory westward :(

 

Secondly there is some merit and truth to what you write but there are several statements that are simply not true, not to call them worse:

 

1. "on 1.September Poland was the happiest state in Europe" - wow, simply wow. Were you actually there at that time? Or do you base it on propaganda movies and posters?

 

2. "For Hitler was Poland an ally. In 1934 they had a non-aggression pact which was prolonges in 1938 (or so)." Not true. A non-aggeression pact =/= alliance pact.

 

"The German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact (German: Deutsch-polnischer Nichtangriffspakt; Polish: Polsko-niemiecki pakt o nieagresji ) was an international treaty between Nazi Germany and the Second Polish Republic signed on January 26, 1934. According to the Pact, both countries pledged to resolve their problems through bilateral negotiations and to forgo armed conflict for a period of ten years. It effectively normalized relations between Poland and Germany, which were previously strained by border disputes arising from the territorial settlement in the Treaty of Versailles. As a consequence of the treaty, Germany effectively recognized Poland's borders and moved to end an economically damaging customs war which existed between the two countries during the previous decade.

 

German policy changed drastically in late 1938, after the annexation of Sudetenland sealed the fate of Czechoslovakia and Poland became Hitler's next target. In October 1938 the Nazi foreign minister Joachim Ribbentrop presented Poland with the proposition of renewing the nonaggression treaty in exchange for allowing the Free City of Danzig (Gdańsk) to be annexed by Germany and for permitting the building of an extraterritorial motorway and railway between East Prussia and Germany proper through the Polish Corridor. Poland refused to accept these demands. As a consequence, the non-aggression pact was unilaterally abrogated by Adolf Hitler on April 28, 1939,^[11] during an address before the Reichstag, as Germany renewed its territorial claims in Poland. After another few months of rising tension, Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, initiating World War II."

 

3. "Poland supported Nazi Germany during the Sudeten Crisis and was rewarded with czech territory in early 1939" - this one is actually quite true and correct. Polish participation in partition of Czechoslovakia was both morally & politically wrong. Sorry Czechs! However during the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia by warpac, Polish government blocked the participation of Eastern (DDR) Germans in the invasion, by reminding them that they already done that in 1938 :D.

 

4. "The polish people payed a very bitter price for the mistakes of their political and military leaders." - BULLSHIT. Poland didn't invade Germany, Poland didn't revoke the non-aggression pact, Poland wasn't attacked by Martians or seven dwarfs. Nazi Germany wanted the war and started the war. Polish government done everything to avoid a war AND maintain independence of Poland - hence non-aggressions pacts signed with both Nazi Germany and USSR and alliance with UK & France. There was NOTHING else Poles could do to avoid war either with western (nazi Germans) or eastern (Soviets) neighbour!!!! Everything else is as pure SPECULATION, not a historical fact!

 

"In April 1939, Beck was in London to negotiate the terms of the British-Polish aid treaty. Beck famously voiced his refusal of German demands in a speech on May 5, 1939:

  "Peace is a precious and a desirable thing. Our generation, bloodied in wars, certainly deserves peace. But peace, like almost all things of this world, has its price, a high but a measurable one. We in Poland do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations and countries that is without price. That thing is honor."

 

Yes, we refused German claims, but who's to say it (the claims) would stop there? Refusing claims on Poland's sovereignty was the only honorable thing to do and by no means a reason to start a goddamn mother*&%king War!!!  And were the minister Beck "smarter" in your definition, and joined the anti-comintern pact, and agreed to German demands, who's to say that the outcome of war with USSR on Germany's side wouldn't be 10 times worse? Again, pure speculations and what-ifs, and not what actually happened...So Gepard, don't put the blame on the polish Politicians. Every option they had was bad...........

 

OK, I've said my piece, you'll hear no more on this topic from me.

 

P.S. THANK YOU Jug!

Edited September 1, 2013 by SFP1Ace

[+Gepard 11,304]

You write the polish point of view. And this is not wrong, for you, as polish.

But i'm not polish. I'm german. East german, to be exactly. In my school time i learned the history nearly in the same way like you. A simple black and white scheme with bad germans that invaded a peacefull, innocent Poland.

Then my military time came and  i became a member of a Tactical SAR team. During the special training, we got there, i had had contact to a lot of pilots and some of them had studied at the Military Academy Dresden. During small talks at campfire they told a lot of interna, which were for insiders only. So i heared from different persons, that old polish war plans from 1939 were still stored in Dresden. And this plans showed a different picture than i knew from official propaganda. Poland was no innocent sheep, but an aggressive wolf, who wanted the war. Its true, that Germany fired the first round, its true, that germany invaded Poland, and i will not denie it. You will also not hear some excuse for german war crimes. But the war plans of poland showed an interessing strategy.

In the first phase of the war, the polish forces should defend along the rivers. They wanted to sacrifice the polish corridor and form a fortress in the size of, lets say Congress Poland, the polish heart land. There the polish leaders wanted to build up a WW1 style trench system and defend for a couple of weeks.

Accordingly to the plans, the polish expected, that Germany would use 1.5 million soldiers to invade Poland, while the polish forces were given with 1 million. In a WW1 scenario this ratio of power would give the polish troops a fair chance to hold the lines.

After 2 or 3 weeks the polish expected, that France and Britain would start active warfare along the german west border. The pressure on this not finished West Wall would force the Germans to move troops from East to West, so the power ratio in East would after a while prefer Poland. Then the polish Army should go into the offensive with planed strikes to conquer Westprussia and a final attack to Berlin, were a big cavalry battle would expected. German tanks were seen as useless vehicles made by wood, so the cavalry should be the war deciding force.

.

.

The military mistake was, that Poland wanted to fight the war in the style of the last war, and did not realize, that a new kind of warfare came. The political mistake was, that they trusted in France and Britain.

[SFP1Ace 33]

I know I said I wouldn't participate further in this discussion...but, what the heck...

 

Again, what you write here is partially correct and contradictory  Gepard

 

1. "So i heared from different persons, that old polish war plans from 1939 were still stored in Dresden. And this plans showed a different picture than i knew from official propaganda." That's hearsay. Have you actually read those plans?

 

All I can say is that there so much merit to this as to me saying that this was a rumor spread by East Germans with Nazi roots and/or sympathies to shift the blame from the criminal to the victim.

 

2. "Poland was no innocent sheep, but an aggressive wolf, who wanted the war." but the you write "Accordingly to the plans, the polish expected, that Germany would use 1.5 million soldiers to invade Poland"

 

Make up your mind, pal. Either (Poland was) an aggressive wolf, or a victim preparing a DEFENSIVE strategy in case of a more and more likely war!

 

3. Third I've gotta say that YOU'VE GOT THE BALLS to  write all this bullshit in a topic created to commemorate victims of 1st of September which is a national remembrance day in  Poland, same as the 7th December is in America.

 

You wouldn't dare to accuse the Americans of being guilty for provoking the attack on Pearl harbor would you?

You wouldn't dare to accuse a raped woman of provoking the rape because she had a mini skirt or was at the wrong place at the wrong time, would you?

 

SOME THINGS ARE JUST PLAIN WRONG TO DO! SO please take your East German revisionist  historical fiction crap somewhere else and don't smear this topic further!!!

 

MODERATORS, PLEASE LOCK THE TOPIC!

 

Thank you

Michał Jadwiszczak a.k.a SFP1Ace

Edited September 2, 2013 by SFP1Ace

[+Dave 2,322]

Ok thats enough of this I think.