VM Machine on Win 10

[RIBob 39]

As some may know, my personal goal is to establish a Virtual Machine in my Win 10 (PRO) computer, using relatively decent I7 processor and decent RAM in order to play older games which are best suited to an earlier Operating System, to wit; Win 7 PRO.  The advantage of Win 7 PRO is that it is relatively friendly to a lot of games written for earlier Operating Systems (some of them having been modified), and that it contains within it the ability to enable an internal Win XP Op Sys for some games that require such.  sort of a 'Two-Fer".  

The benefits are that the "Computer within a Computer"  (the VM) will be better suited to run many games, not the least of which is EAW, using the more advanced processor, greater RAM, and better graphics cards available to more modern computers.  Set up properly, the VM will be able to communicate with the Internet, and so be able to download new versions of games, or update existing versions.  Naturally, certain precautions must be made, such as Anti-virus protection and so forth,  just as would be done with any Operating System connected with the Internet.   In sum, the VM will be its own semi-independent environment, existing as a user-configurable entity within the Host computer environment.

The downside to all this is that enough HDD (or, preferably, SDD) storage space must be available.  Games take up a lot of storage, so this capacity is essential  I am setting aside about 1TB on a 2 TB  SSD on my Win 10 computer for this VM, the remainder of storage space on that SSD being assignable--and useable-- as I wish .  The Win 10 OpSys (Host) is set up on a separate 1Tb SSD, and has been deliberately kept as lean as possible, with no stone left unturned to turn-off unwanted Windows features, and making an active attempt to eliminate unwanted/undesirable bloatware.

The main point is to not only calculate HDD/SSD space based on the Games, but also the amount of storage for the required OpSys as well.  So, it adds up.

I have begun by designating 1/4 of my RAM to the VM--I can change that as needs be.  This allocation only pertains while the VM is running; otherwise all RAM is available to Host computer.  Needless to say, the VM can be turned "ON" or "OFF" at will. 

My original Win 7 computer, with its' Core2Duo processor was surprisingly good at modern graphics, but with its' non-upgradable CPU and power supply, was clearly at the end of its useful life, as far as modern gaming goes.  The vastly more capable I7 Win 10 machine will hopefully allow me many more years of gaming while I save up for an even better machine.  All the SSDs will be transferred to the future machine, so the expense of the SSDs will be set against their use far into the future. 

More to come.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by RIBob

[MigBuster 2,884]

What VM are you using may I ask?

 

 

[MarkEAW 63]

I think he told me hes using the VM built in the PRO version of Win10, which supports hardware Virtualization.
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/id-Virtualization/

That link above seems to have a lot of knowledge on the subject for Win10 BTW.

[RIBob 39]

17 hours ago, MarkEAW said:

I think he told me hes using the VM built in the PRO version of Win10, which supports hardware Virtualization.
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/id-Virtualization/

That link above seems to have a lot of knowledge on the subject for Win10 BTW.

That's correct; I am using the Hyper V (Virtual Machine) feature (Default: Disabled) already present in the "PRO"--or higher versions --of Win 7, 8, and 10.

[RIBob 39]

The first thing one should do, if contemplating use of Virtual Machine technology, is to determine whether or not one's computer is able to run it.  This link provides some basic instructions for investigating VM compatibility, as well as Tools/Utilities for both Intel and AMD CPU users to make a final determination: https://www.thewindowsclub.com/check-intel-amd-processor-supports-hyper-v  In short, if considering VM, make sure, by using the link above, that your computer is able to do so. 

[RIBob 39]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:00 PM, MigBuster said:

  What VM are you using may I ask?

 

 

Answer to your  primary question provided above.  Looking at the system specs you provided in your Sig-Line, I see that your particular Edition of Win 10 is "Home" edition.  Sorry, Hyper-V is not supported by that particular Edition, only "Pro" edition and above.

You have two alternatives should you wish to establish a VM on your computer, and this assumes that you have checked and found your machine to be physically capable of running VM --link to do so provided above:

1) Upgrade your version of Win 10 "Home" to Win 10 "PRO", using a product key.  This usually costs money, but sometimes not a lot.  The software you want is already within Win 10, just not accessible without the correct Win 10 "Pro" product key, which seems to be about $147 USD on Amazon.  By the way, I got lucky and used an Unused Win 7 PRO product key to upgrade my Win 10 Home laptop to Win 10 PRO.  It worked perfectly. 

2) Use an aftermarket suite of VM software.  Search "Virtual Machine", and some providers will pop up.  Do your research carefully, and make your choice.   Sometimes such software is free, sometimes not.  Here's a list of some of the offerings: https://www.lifewire.com/best-virtual-machine-software-4147437

Edited April 27, 2019 by RIBob

[MigBuster 2,884]

Hello

Yes I am aware of that thank you - I was just asking what you are using that will give you access to the GFX hardware for the benefit of others.

I do run Linux distros in Oracle VM but have no need to run games in it as all mine still work on Win 10. 

 

 

[RIBob 39]

4 minutes ago, MigBuster said:

Hello

Yes I am aware of that thank you - I was just asking what you are using that will give you access to the GFX hardware for the benefit of others.

I do run Linux distros in Oracle VM but have no need to run games in it as all mine still work on Win 10. 

 

 

I'm a little unclear as to the meaning of your question; could you please expand and re-phrase it?

[MigBuster 2,884]

Sorry are you using translation software? 

[RIBob 39]

19 hours ago, MigBuster said:

  Sorry are you using translation software? 

I hope that will not be necessary.  The VM is being configured to access the internet through, and to use the graphics card in, the Host machine.  I hope connection to the internet can be accomplished by using various programs existing in host machine, as that would save some space and processor resources.  I know the games/programs in the VM are compatible with the graphics card installed in the host machine, as well as the peripherals attached to it.  I hope that answers your question.

As can be seen, the VM being set up is a rather unusual one, and a robust one.  There are complications in setting up the connection to the internet through the host machine, as well as sharing peripherals.  Internet connection to the VM is not strictly necessary, but, I believe, a time-saver, given my intended application.   I could get along without it, if need be.  In such a case, I'd set-up/modify the game intended for use in the VM in the Host machine, transfer it, and test/run it in VM machine.

Edited April 28, 2019 by RIBob

[RIBob 39]

As far as I am concerned, the VM machine approach is undertaken in order to allow vintage games to be played in  native OpSys, since future OpSys will very likely deny this option.

I sincerely hope your aged computer, using an extinct Operating System, continues working for you far, and far,  into the future.   Maybe it might fail, for inexplicable reason.  If you have backed-up everything, where will you go?

I might suggest that betting that everything goes "just right" might be a bad bet.  Hence my approach.  YMMV.  

All I am saying is that users of various games should carefully consider their options, and spread around their alternatives/options.

[RIBob 39]

Yet another alternative to the Virtual Machine approach is the "Dual Boot" approach.  This is rather simpler than the VM scheme, and does not require devoting a minimum amount of RAM to the VM, and the rest being devoted to the Host machine.  Nor does one need to own a "PRO"--or higher-- version of Windows to go Dual boot.  OTOH, it requires enough storage space to support both the desired OpSys and the games/programs which one intends to run on it.  My computer guy is trying hard to persuade me against using VM for the gaming application  which was my original intention.

As always, the fundamental goal is to transfer my Win 7 Pro OpSys--and virtually all my games-- away from the non-upgradable Small Form Factor Dell OptiPlex,  and onto a much more upgradeable, modern tower computer.   Eventually, I want to experiment with Virtual Reality, and none of the computers I now own will allow that.  Not made of money, but I live below my means, and have saved-up for a while.

Seems like the "Dual Boot" alternative might meet my needs, as I have plenty of 1 Tb and a 2 TB SSD lying around.  Will update as the situation allows; new computer shouls arrive shortly, so stay tuned.

RIBob

[MarkEAW 63]

I'd just go with removal drives, two separate drives, each with there own OS/Games on it.
This way you can simply slide out one and slide the other in.

Similar to dual boot, but much easier.

[Jel 37]

Agreed Mark, that is how my system works with two Win 7 HDDs and one Win 10 HDD.

I have an XP install disk but when I tried to install XP on another HDD the installation failed because of the more advanced graphics card in the PC.

Otherwise I would be running XP, and programming the exe on an XP drive. As it stands I have an Oracle VM VirtualBox running XP on the Win 10 drive for programming. The VM graphics driver CTDs if I try to run EAW, so the saved exe goes into a folder that is accessible from both the VM and the Win 10 folder. Then I copy and paste it into the UAW160 folder for testing.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Jel

[RIBob 39]

On 5/5/2019 at 3:29 PM, MarkEAW said:

I'd just go with removal drives, two separate drives, each with there own OS/Games on it.
This way you can simply slide out one and slide the other in.

Similar to dual boot, but much easier.

So, let's see if I understand your concept:

One has one (or more) external SSD/HDD caddies attached to the computer.  There is no "Boot" SSD/HDD in the computer itself; one turns on the external caddy containing the SSD/HDD one wishes to use, then turns on the computer.  By default, the computer boots using the OpSys contained in the caddy that has been previously turned ON.  Is that right?

[MarkEAW 63]

I'll only seen one used once, its a bay in the computer that you have a special component/slot. You slide in the os drive and it connects to power and input and you turn on the computer just like any computer I guess.

Not sure how safe it is , if you need to turn off the power supply or not.

[Jel 37]

My PC has a bay like the one you describe.
It is connected to the motherboard just like HDDs are.

I have a 1Terabyte internal HDD with no operating system installed. All of my EAW folders are on it, and much more.

Turning on the PC makes it boot from the operating system HDD that is in the bay.
If I want to change the O/S then I shut down, the the HDD out of the bay, insert a new one and reboot.

[RIBob 39]

I have seen Dell laptops with an HDD/SDD "bay" into which one slides a specific "drive caddy", into which is installed an SSD/HDD of one's choice.  Sitting next to one now, as chance would have it.   A neat solution, but few other types of computers have such "Quick Remove/Replace" features.  I definitely don't think the SSD/HDD drive/caddy assy is "hot-swappable", though.

[MarkEAW 63]

I would not think 'hot swappable', but if you buy the right bay, you can have the ssd/hdd use it. 

Upto you which everyway you go dual boot or swappable...I'll be willing to hear your results.

[RIBob 39]

 

Most modern tower computers have the primary drive in a plastic caddy, which is designed to be removed from the computer without tools, after disconnecting the power and data cables.   Just swap out another drive, in its identical caddy, with perhaps another OpSys, re-connect power and data cables, and your computer thinks it's a Win 7 computer instead of the original win 10.  You'll need to open the side panel every time, although this is made easy on modern computers.  I don't know how many install-removal cycles modern drives are expected to accomplish. so a conservative (or cautious) person would seek to minimize such, IMHO.  As an aside, the laptop next to me is a Dell Latitude E6420, and has a OpSys drive port, which uses a specific caddy for the Drive-- its' current drive being a 500 Gb SSD.  The computer was stated as being  built to some sort of Military specification, and I reckon the drive caddies were very robust indeed--as well as their connections to the the computer itself.  The drives, and their presumably more fragile connections, maybe not so stout.   The drive caddies took all the connection/disconnection abuse.  If one has one of these laptops, perhaps having a spare caddy available might be wise, as the wear-and-tear on the contacts would show up there first.

Absent an easy and convenient method of swapping Drives, (Aforementioned Laptops being an exception), then setting up a Dual Boot system might be the simplest, and most user-friendly way to run multiple OpSys on the usual computer.

The entire point of this post as well as other related threads/postings has been to find an economical. practical way for users of older computers (presumably nearing the end of their useful life) to migrate their valued games (as well as the OpSys) into a new computer.  Dual Boot seems to be the optimal choice for Gamers, but YMMV. 

If keeping ones valued games alive was not sufficient reason to consider Dual Boot, there are other reasons.  For instance, newer computers may have more powerful power supplies (Upgradeable, perhaps) which will accommodate much more advanced Graphic  Cards.  Newer computers will generally have more advanced Processors, which will be a distinct improvement, since the accepted knowledge is that EAW is CPU-intensive.  Newer computers have more RAM, and of better/faster type.  All of these things are improvements, and far preferable to one's older computer dying--along with all one's valued sims.

Very modern computers may be able to use Virtual Reality software/hardware.  There are some that say using such transforms the game into a completely immersive experience.

At the risk of being redundant, I will mention that upgrading the RAM of your computer is very easy, and always useful.  Just go to Crucial.com, download their analyzer program, and see what their RAM suggestions might be. You can delete the program afterwards.

As far as your CPU goes, and again being redundant, I've upgraded 2 computers recently.  Following detailed videos on YouTube, it was fairly simple.  Just search "Upgrade CPU on >your exact model/brand of computer<"   Desktop went from I5 to I7, and laptop went from I3 to I5.  In both cases, I played it safe by upgrading CPUs to those that were originally offered in the respective computers.  In doing so, I ensured that the new CPUs were not only guaranteed to fit, but the cooling system of the computers could handle the upgrade.  The User Manual of your particular computer will give the details as to the different CPUs with which it was shipped.  When swapping CPUs, the only mandatory accessory is some heat-sink paste.  Absolutely required, but a very small amount will do.

The discussion about SSDs vs. HDDs is over, as far as I am concerned.  The SSDs are so much faster to boot, and transfer data so much faster, that the HDDs are becoming dinosaurs, and relegated to deep storage and System Recovery.  Crucial.com has a very nice (free, but hard to find) Acronis Program for cloning Drives.  I've used it a few times, with zero problems.  "Cloning" means making an exact copy of an existing SSD/HDD and transferring it to another SSD/HDD.  Such cloned drives are fully useful as "bootable" drives. "Cloning" is NOT "Copying". 

Blabbing on too much.  All well-intentioned, but please do your research as pertains to your particular application(s). 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by RIBob