MiG-31 Foxbat Blasts Wingman

[JosefK 911]

Well this sure gives confidence to all Russians that their air defenses work... NOT.

The Drive: MiG-31 Shot Down Its Wingman

Quote

 

The report from Rosaviaprom, which oversees the country’s state-owned aviation and space enterprises, that Baza obtained does blame pilot error for the mishap. But it just so happens that they determined that the crew of the crashed plane and the craw in a second MiG-31 taking part in the training exercise were both at fault.

The investigators concluded that the crew in the plane that got shot down had improperly followed procedures, allowing them to stray into the potential line of fire during the live-fire exercise. It also faulted aviators flying the other Foxhound for turning on their Zaslon-AM’s fire control function at the wrong time, cueing an R-33 missile right at their wingman. They further blamed the pilot for firing the weapon when this individual should have known they were not engaging a target drone.

. . .

Baza, citing anonymous sources, suggests that part of the issue might be the simple inability of the computer processors in the Baget-55 to handle all of the information from the massive Zaslon-AM radar. This unit is a passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar that actually consists of two distinct X- and L-band arrays working together.

The original Zaslon, which the Soviet Union developed in the late 1970s specifically for the MiG-31, holds a number of firsts, both in that country and internationally. It was the first PESA ever installed in a fighter jet and was also the Soviet Union’s first look down/shoot down radar. The original Argon-15A fire control computer associated with the radar was also the first digital computer for an airplane that the Research Institute of Computer Engineering had ever developed. 

The MiG-31 series is the only aircraft to ever carry the Zaslon, as well as its improved variants. The first improved version, the Zaslon-M, which featured a larger overall antenna.  Together with an improved version of the Argon computer, it could reportedly track up to 24 different targets and engage up to four opponents simultaneously. The Zaslon-AM further improves upon this with the more powerful Baget-55 in place of the earlier Argon types. 

 

The full article is full of great video and discussion, go check it out.

[+Gepard 11,316]

The source of the story is not reliable.

The site baza.io is from british territories in indian ocean.

"citing anonymous sources"

Sorry guys, dont believe all what you are reading.

[bazillius 1,258]

Gepard, i have seen this news even at russian sites. And after they shot down the their IL-20 with own missile I want to say that it is true. After the hole in a cosmic ship Soyus, after all that...

Edited May 10, 2019 by bazillius

[bazillius 1,258]

Russian Ka-52 accidentally shoots at russian journalists. You say you do not believe. They are dangerous not only for other around them but for themselves most of all.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by bazillius

[+Gepard 11,316]

16 hours ago, bazillius said:

Gepard, i have seen this news even at russian sites. And after they shot down the their IL-20 with own missile I want to say that it is true. After the hole in a cosmic ship Soyus, after all that...

You mix different accidents.

I refer to the MiG-31 story. No real reliable source is broadcasting this story. No Janes, no CNN, no Sky News, no Fox, no RT. Okay RT is not really reliable, true.

 

The Ka-52 thing i have never said, that i dont believe it. I have seen it, i spoke with eyewitness persons and i can tell you what went wrong there.

It was the strong believe in automatical warfare systems, which were developed for the Ka-50 combat helicopter. The systems were designed to detect and attack targets autonomus to reduce the workload for the pilot. The core system was transfered into the Ka-52. This is a 2 pilot helicopter, but the weaponcontrolsystem is still capable to detect and attack targets without human help. And exactly this the system has done.

It detected a military truck  and civil cars. The truck was attacked with two unguided rockets and was hit by two rockets. The other vehicles were not attacked. The weaponcontrolsystem  was working perfect. The only mistake, that happend was, that the crew of the Ka-52 forgot to swich the safe arm button.

Shit happens.

[bazillius 1,258]

Gepard, i do not do mixes. I just say about tendency. One MiG-31 shot down another it is completely possible in Russia.

In Ka-52 pilot forgot to swithch off weapons, in Soyus another man forgot that no need to do holes in spaseships, SSJ-100 pilot forgot that it needs to land more safe with full fuel tanks and burned SSJ-100 with passangers... This is tendency. The state of things in Russia.

Edited May 10, 2019 by bazillius

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

50 minutes ago, bazillius said:

Gepard, i do not do mixes. I just say about tendency. One MiG-31 shot down another it is completely possible in Russia.

In Ka-52 pilot forgot to swithch off weapons, in Soyus another man forgot that no need to do holes in spaseships, SSJ-100 pilot forgot that it needs to land more safe with full fuel tanks and burned SSJ-100 with passangers... This is tendency. The state of things in Russia.

And as we all know no western pilot has ever F'd up at any point in history... there is not a single recorded incident anywhere of a live fire accident involving American, British, French, German forces... oh... wait... 

[+Gepard 11,316]

Bazillus. When it was, that a spanish EuFi pilot fired an AMRAAM accidently in Estonia? August 2018?

Or when it happend, that a KC-135 explodes by the pressure test? Or a KC-10 with the same problem?

Or when it happend, that skilled american Army technicians accidently flooded a Hangar full of helicopters with foam?

What is with the Boing 737MAX8?

Or, or, or.

Shit happens. All over the world. Its not only a russian problem.

[bazillius 1,258]

at any point in history...

lets discuss than what happened in  Stone Age then! If you take any point in hisory. As i said i see a tendency.

I'm not going to argue with you. I know Russia, it is near me. I clearly remember USSR times. The end of USSR was exactly as it is in Russia now. You do not believe MiG-31 Shot down another MiG-31? Great! Your will)))

Edited May 10, 2019 by bazillius

[JosefK 911]

I believe it probably happened.  MiG-31 aircrew have had an entire section - yes, an entire section of four (4) Foxhounds - stranded in Siberia for a while due to piss-poor fuel management.  

 

Seems to me in the pilot hierarchy of the Russian Air Force, flying the MiG-31 is for a lower percentile than say... Su-34 or Su-30 or Su-35!

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

1 hour ago, bazillius said:

lets discuss than what happened in  Stone Age then! If you take any point in hisory. As i said i see a tendency.

I'm not going to argue with you. I know Russia, it is near me. I clearly remember USSR times. The end of USSR was exactly as it is in Russia now. You do not believe MiG-31 Shot down another MiG-31? Great! Your will)))

You made a stupid remark and were called on it... this is not a uniquely Russian phenomenon, and its not an argument.

There is no more of a tendency for this sort of incident in Russia than there is anywhere else:

• A USN F-14 shot down a USAF F-4.
• A US destroyer shot down an airliner.
• Both Airbus and Boeing have built planes that are capable of overruling the crew with dire consequences.
• There have been more blue on blue incidents involving western air power since the firs Gulf war than I can honestly remember at this point.
• British submarines went through a phase of mounting every rock and island they could find.
• USN surface combatants seem to have been experimenting with ramming tactics against merchant vessels over the last couple of years.

Embarrassing screw ups happen all around the globe... 

I also never said that I don't believe the 31 on 31 kill  happened... I didn't actually comment on it at all... 

Edited May 10, 2019 by fallenphoenix1986

[bazillius 1,258]

 

fallenphoenix1986 I remind you the theme:
MiG-31 Foxbat Blasts Wingman

Theme is not "any catastrophe over the world with aircraft"

And i JUST SAY that this situation COMPLETELY POSSIBLE. And i am sure it happened. And more, i have read about it at RUSSIANs sites. i dont discuss zuny blast at aircarrier, i dont discuss friendly fire at Iraq etc. And as an example, i show a fire of Ka-52. This mean that it is not a something unbelievable in Russia. It happens REGULAR in Russia.

[fallenphoenix1986 603]

12 hours ago, bazillius said:

fallenphoenix1986 I remind you the theme:
MiG-31 Foxbat Blasts Wingman

Theme is not "any catastrophe over the world with aircraft"

Need I remind you that It was YOU that expanded the discussion away from the shoot down when YOU brought up the IL-20, Soyuz,  Ka-52 and SSJ-100 incidents... not me...

Again, you made a series of dumb remarks and you've been called on it. 

[+Gepard 11,316]

There is not one serious source that report the MiG-31 shot down by wingman. Only "yellow press".

When this happen it is a sign, that something could be wrong. And then is time to ask questions, wheter the story sounds right or not. For me it is a remind on the bad old times, when all news in the paper, radio or TV were "correct", because official, even if they were fake news. In that time you developed a fine instinct to realize wheter a news was right, possible or wrong. And you learned to ask yourself, to research yourself etc.

Now to the MiG-31 shot down.

I doubt, that it happend in the way it was descriped.

Why?

First: The R-33 is a long range missile with a minimum range of 2 or 2.5 km IIRC. The minimum range we call in german Tote Zone, what by a word by word translation becomes "dead zone". In the dead zone a missile cant be guided by radar, by a laser or something else. In the dead zone the missile is dumb, stupid and worth nothing. It will hit nothing.

That a R-33 could have a minimum chance to hit an airplane, the firing plane must fly 2.000 meters behind the attacked plane.

The fighter tatics for a pair of planes is always so, that the wingman protects the leader. He flies never in front of the leader. He flies some meters (some 100 meters) aside, and a little bit above to leader or a little bit lower. In this position he cant be attacked by the weapons of the leader and his weapons cant attack the leader.

Second: The R-33 missile is designed to destroy bombers and other big planes. It has a big warhead. I doubt, that someone would survive a hit with a R-33 or a Phoenix, if he sits in a fighter size plane.

Third: The Friend or Foe ID system used by the russians is networked with the weapon control system of the plane. If the IFF identify an "own plane", the plane is marked doubled (for instance      =       instead      -       on the radar screnn) or marked as a triangle instead a circle. (depends on age of the system)  The WCS does not allow to fire a weapon to a "own" plane. The pilot can override the WCS only by active handling.

 

What really could have happen, is that the firing plane had shot a missile in his own tail. But not with a R-33.

Possible is such a scenario by the use of IR guided missiles. If a missile was dropped during the launch sequence without starting the rocket engine, then it falls from sky. (this has happen often enough) If in such a scenario the rocket starts with a delay, what means during the falling down, the IR seeker would have the chance to lock on the launch plane. The missile would start the chase and could hit the plane. (Such incidents have happen. There are more then one or two pilots of the world who had shot down themself with the IR missile.)

Since the MiG-31 can carry R-60 missiles for self defence i think it is more likely, that they have shot themself a R-60 into the butt, than they had shot down a wingman.

[bazillius 1,258]

allenphoenix1986, okay, okay, I agree with you ! Friendly fire it is impossimle between russians! Friendly fire possyble ONLY with western pilots. Russian pilots and friendly fire this is completely impossible!!!!!!!!

Gepard, even russian write about this incident. But antway you are right!  2 km is a minimum operational range of R-33. Russians fly only closer one to each other. They fly only wing to wing. And for sure, missiles designed to kill bombers, especialy modern, cant hit any other aircraft. Only bombers. Even if it realised it flies to an aircraft, identyfy it, if  missile see it is a fighter, it rotetes at 180 degree and fly back and after it the missile gets back to its pylon. Russian network NEVER  works wrong cuz this is russians.

Gepard, fallenphoenix1986 you both are right! YOU WIN THIS BATTLE!

 

-----------------------------

К сожалению, не обошлось и без применения оружия по своим. В процессе выполнения плановых учебно-боевых стрельб на полигоне Сары-Шаган, при наведении истребителей на различные радиоуправляемые мишени было произведено поражение самолета МиГ-31 с борта другого истребителя того же полка. Версия инцидента, близкая к официальной, гласит, что причиной стало перенацеливание пущенных по мишени ракет Р-33. По версии, далекой от официальной, экипаж доложил о готовности к пуску, но при этом цель опознавалась как имеющая признак «своя» (от РЛ системы госопознавания).

По рассказам офицеров, на командном пункте присутствовал высокий чин, давший команду на уничтожение цели. Экипаж повторно доложил, что цель — «своя», и снова получил приказ на уничтожение. Сняв блокировку на пуск ракет по «своим», летчик выполнил пуск (2-х или 3-х) ракет Р-33, первая попала в цель. С технологической точки зрения, мне вторая версия кажется гораздо более правдоподобной. Погиб командир экипажа, штурману отсекло пальцы руки, но он смог катапультироваться. Очевидцы рассказывали, что кресло пилота было буквально иссечено осколками. Единственное обстоятельство, в котором сходятся варианты объяснения причин, состоит в том, что были превышены заявленные характеристики комплекса вооружения МиГ-31, но ошибок наведения или действий экипажа не обнаружено.

https://army-news.ru/2018/04/razmyshleniya-o-mig-31-boevoe-primenenie-i-effektivnost/

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by bazillius

[bazillius 1,258]

[+Gepard 11,316]

On 11.5.2019 at 6:06 PM, bazillius said:

-----------------------------

К сожалению, не обошлось и без применения оружия по своим. В процессе выполнения плановых учебно-боевых стрельб на полигоне Сары-Шаган, при наведении истребителей на различные радиоуправляемые мишени было произведено поражение самолета МиГ-31 с борта другого истребителя того же полка. Версия инцидента, близкая к официальной, гласит, что причиной стало перенацеливание пущенных по мишени ракет Р-33. По версии, далекой от официальной, экипаж доложил о готовности к пуску, но при этом цель опознавалась как имеющая признак «своя» (от РЛ системы госопознавания).

По рассказам офицеров, на командном пункте присутствовал высокий чин, давший команду на уничтожение цели. Экипаж повторно доложил, что цель — «своя», и снова получил приказ на уничтожение. Сняв блокировку на пуск ракет по «своим», летчик выполнил пуск (2-х или 3-х) ракет Р-33, первая попала в цель. С технологической точки зрения, мне вторая версия кажется гораздо более правдоподобной. Погиб командир экипажа, штурману отсекло пальцы руки, но он смог катапультироваться. Очевидцы рассказывали, что кресло пилота было буквально иссечено осколками. Единственное обстоятельство, в котором сходятся варианты объяснения причин, состоит в том, что были превышены заявленные характеристики комплекса вооружения МиГ-31, но ошибок наведения или действий экипажа не обнаружено.

https://army-news.ru/2018/04/razmyshleniya-o-mig-31-boevoe-primenenie-i-effektivnost/

 

I wrote in my last post:

The WCS does not allow to fire a weapon to a "own" plane. The pilot can override the WCS only by active handling.

 

Exactly this is descriped in the russian article. The WCS blocked the firing of the missile. The ground controller gave the order to attack. The plane crew refused the order and asked for repeat. The ground controller gave the order again. Then the plane crew override the safety mechanism of WCS and opened the fire.

It was the fault of the ground controller. This is a typical case of "shit happens".

During my military time i shot on an own T-55AM2 with a RPG-18, because the tank wanted to drove a shortcut. And this shortcut was exactly though our RPG shooting range. We usually shot on old tanks which were mounted of railway tracks, what looked very realistic. When the tank appeared the "Aufführende", the second guy, gave the order to shoot. I fired, hit the tank on turret, but luckily the addon armour was thick enough to protect the crew.

Its typical military "shit hapens".

[bazillius 1,258]

12 hours ago, Gepard said:

Its typical military "shit hapens".

So it can be possible to shot down a wingman or not?

Edited May 25, 2019 by bazillius

[+Gepard 11,316]

5 hours ago, bazillius said:

So it can be possible to shot down a wingman or not?

If you read the report correctly, then the answer is "No".

In the report you find  the line: было произведено поражение самолета МиГ-31 с борта другого истребителя того же полка.

what means translated ino english:

the MiG-31 aircraft was destroyed from the side of another fighter of the same regiment.

Same regiment (squadron) does not mean wingman. I think there were multiple flights or pairs of MiG-31 in the area on different flight pathes (vectors). Only under that conditions a plane can be hit "from the side".

[bazillius 1,258]

1 hour ago, Gepard said:

 

)))) you are a kind of persons who will argue in any case and never admit you're wrong . I will try to remember you and do not discuss with you anymore. One MiG-31 shoot down another with R-33, this is the fact. But you try to find fault with words, even in a language that you do not understand, trying to interpret words this way and that way. You are wrong and this is a fact too.  Do not quote me please any more and so will do I. Deal? Good? Good. At at any theme, under any comments don't  speak to me please. ))) You are very tedious.

Edited May 25, 2019 by bazillius

[JosefK 911]

Well I am very much overtime on releasing something that does have MiG-31s packing old IR missiles...

[+Gepard 11,316]

3 hours ago, bazillius said:

)))) you are a kind of persons who will argue in any case and never admit you're wrong . I will try to remember you and do not discuss with you anymore. One MiG-31 shoot down another with R-33, this is the fact. But you try to find fault with words, even in a language that you do not understand, trying to interpret words this way and that way. You are wrong and this is a fact too.  Do not quote me please any more and so will do I. Deal? Good? Good. At at any theme, under any comments don't  speak to me please. ))) You are very tedious.

Are you so sure, that i dont speak russian? Do you think i cant read and write cyrillic? Do you really believe i dont understand what is written in russian? Really?

Of course you are better in this. You are from Kiev. And the ukrainian language is nothing else than an old russian dialect with some latin letters in it. But i have learned russian in scholl and during my studyies. My russian is good enough. Fact!

If you run out of arguments you starts to become offensive.! Its ukrainian style. Its ukrainian behaviour, as we can see in your parliament.

You started to mix thinks together which have nothing in common without one point, they are strenghen your feeling of supperiority over the russians. In your eyes the russians are stupid, unable, unskilled, incompetent etc.pp. But if they are, why they are still sitting on the Crimean Peninsula? Could it be, that the western financed community in the Ukraine is exactly that what you  believe the russians are?

If you are unable to argue with persons which have other opinions or views, then you will never find a place in the EU. Because arguing is part of democracy.

[bazillius 1,258]

2 hours ago, Gepard said:

 

[ EDITED CONTENT ]

This member does not wish to argue or discuss this subject any further. Please continue the discussion without his input. Thank you.

[ Erik : 21:50 Zulu : Saturday, May 25, 2019 ]

Edited May 25, 2019 by Erik
Translation