SF2NA; Difficulty of Strike - Anti-Ship Missions!

[Arrow 83]

I've been trying to fly some Strike missions that are anti-ship and have found these next to impossible to successfully execute & survive. I've been flying these missions with the CF-188B (RCAF F/A-18 Hornet, service entry 1983) and the A-6E Intruder. My 1st problem are the default loadouts for these types of missions; default for the CF-188B are AIM 9M Sidewinder and AIM 7M Sparrow and for the A-6E Intruder the Mk.23 Walleye II ERDL. Both of those give me WTF thoughts, as from my understanding of it the CF-188Bs is an Air-Air only loadout and the A-6E's is an Air-Ground for land targets; I'm admittedly not that familiar with the Walleye so not 100% about the latter. I've checked the LOADOUT.INIs for both aircraft and neither default loadout I'm presented with matches up. In the INIs the Anti-Ship loadout for the CF-188B is the AIM-9X, AGM-88C & D and the AIM-120C-5. For the A-6E it's only the MK83. With a max selectable date of 1983, I of course never have the AIM-9X, AGM-188's or AIM-120C available to CF-188B.

I always manually change those loadouts to more suitable weapons, but the problem is I really don't have any suitable ASW armaments at my disposal. Both the A-6 Superpack and the CF-188B v1.1 RAR's include the Harpoon, but it's the AGM-84E and AGM-84F editions that were't available for the selectable service years for my aircraft. I've tried loading up with some SEAD armaments like the AGM-45b Shrike and the AGM-65a Maverick, but they never successfully lock on. I do see the maverick's target image in the Hornet's MFD-TV, but I don't seem to be able to get the cross-hair to acquire or lock. I always have lots of versions of the AGM-12 Bullpup available, but I'm not sure if they're even really usable. I'm n00b at Anti-ship though and I've been following some advice in Bunyap's old Weapons Delivery manual, but it's very possible I'm doing things wrong.

Anyhow...the result is that I never hit a single ship and I and my wingmen are always get shot down. It seems like the ECM on the ships is just far too strong for us too lock on and the GOA and other Surface-Air are far too many and too deadly. I'm also not sure about appropriate radar modes in the Hornet; there's Search, Track while Scan, Air Combat Maneuvering and Ground Map available, but which to use?  It's more straight forward in the Intruder as it only has terrain avoidance and ground map. Ialways have ECM turned on and when bombing with the Intruder never have radar on as it features the excellent, modded CCIP.  Attempting to bomb a ship seems very suicidal at best anyways and what I really want is to be able to use stand-off ASW missiles that should be available within the service years of my aircraft, but they aren't there?  I can fly like an Ace with good kill/success ratios for any other type of missions that are available to either aircraft, but any kind of success with anti-ship or Ship SEAD completely alludes me.

If anyone has any feedback or suggestions as to what I might do to succeed and survive with Anti-Ship missions, I'd really appreciate hearing about it.

[Edit] I should have mentioned that I did some searches of the Knowledge Base forum, but couldn't find anything appropriate.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Arrow

[KiwiBiggles 114]

Customise your loadouts.  For example F-4Ks (off Ark Royal) with TV Martels will do nicely against the Kiev battle group (or go with more realistic Buccaneers if your computer can handle the high-poly models).  I"ve also upgraded my Martels with armor-piercing warheads (which are more realistic than HE).

Go big with your roster. I take 12 birds  in my strike flights, plus the computer-assigned SEAD and CAP flights etc (think Alpha Strike).  For US missions my first 8 strike birds carry Standard ARMs, the last 4 carry Walleyes for the coup de grâce.

Go low. Under 100 feet will do nicely. Your AI wingmen will do their own thing, but it will help you survive against the SAMS. My AI F-4s are customised with a lower-altitude flight model, which helps them a little.

Go slow.  I throttle my F-4 back to 50% so I can get all four Martels off the rails and keep them out in front.  Then I hit the "burners.

Stay out of the engagement zone of the rotary cannons, they're deadly!

FWIW I use the 'classic' Iceland terrain, and my difficulty setting is normal.  I actually have a cloned UK-only version of the terrain for Royal Navy missions, which gives me a "Commando Carrier' amphibious group, and prevents US Navy flights launching from Ark Royal--nice but not necessary.

Hope it helps, happy hunting!

KB

[JosefK 911]

I have as the final mission of Nihon Hitori 2020 (Japan Alone 2020) two flights of F-2As going after a Russian surface task force hell-bent on resupplying the Kurils and led by the Slava-class destroyer Varyag.  It will take two, yes two, large groupings of F-2As lobbing anti-ship missiles (ASMs) to overwhelm the Varyag and its escorts.  You are also highly recommended to pack IR-guided or Laser-guided bombs for many ASMs will not make it past the warships to the cargo ships.

Also F-15Js will provide top cover as you can expect Foxhounds & Flankers to attempt to intercept.  Just like the real world...

[Arrow 83]

50 minutes ago, KiwiBiggles said:

Customise your loadouts.  For example F-4Ks (off Ark Royal) with TV Martels will do nicely against the Kiev battle group (or go with more realistic Buccaneers if your computer can handle the high-poly models).  I"ve also upgraded my Martels with armor-piercing warheads (which are more realistic than HE).

Go big with your roster. I take 12 birds  in my strike flights, plus the computer-assigned SEAD and CAP flights etc (think Alpha Strike).  For US missions my first 8 strike birds carry Standard ARMs, the last 4 carry Walleyes for the coup de grâce.Go low. Under 100 feet will do nicely. Your AI wingmen will do their own thing, but it will help you survive against the SAMS. My AI F-4s are customised with a lower-altitude flight model, which helps them a little.

Go slow.  I throttle my F-4 back to 50% so I can get all four Martels off the rails and keep them out in front.  Then I hit the "burners.

Stay out of the engagement zone of the rotary cannons, they're deadly!

FWIW I use the 'classic' Iceland terrain, and my difficulty setting is normal.  I actually have a cloned UK-only version of the terrain for Royal Navy missions, which gives me a "Commando Carrier' amphibious group, and prevents US Navy flights launching from Ark Royal--nice but not necessary.

Hope it helps, happy hunting!

KB

Thanks for the reply KiwiBiggles.

My problem though, is that for both the CF-188B and the A-6E Intruder I don't have the equivalent of a MARTEL available. I only have Anti-SEAD missiles like the Shrike and the Maverick; also the AGM-78 Starms for the Intruder. If I had something like the Martel, I probably would have had some successes wouldn't have needed to create a post.  ;)

That's good advice about a mixed roster - I hadn't considered upping the roster number and mixing up their armaments. As I initially said, I wasn't familiar with the Walleye, but seeing your use of it and now having dug into the wiki, I can see where it can be an effective anti-ship armament. Going under 100 ft sounds hairy, but I think I can pull that off. ;)  I do throttle back significantly once I've reached the ingress waypoint.

I'm also using the classic Iceland terrain, as I found the stock to be unrealistic in how enemy radar-homing missiles can fly over and around it like they're controlled by some futuristic SciFi A.I.  I don't know about changing my settings from Hard though, as I currently do well in all other mission types and don't want to lessen the challenge for those.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Arrow

[Arrow 83]

42 minutes ago, JosefK said:

I have as the final mission of Nihon Hitori 2020 (Japan Alone 2020) two flights of F-2As going after a Russian surface task force hell-bent on resupplying the Kurils and led by the Slava-class destroyer Varyag.  It will take two, yes two, large groupings of F-2As lobbing anti-ship missiles (ASMs) to overwhelm the Varyag and its escorts.  You are also highly recommended to pack IR-guided or Laser-guided bombs for many ASMs will not make it past the warships to the cargo ships.

Also F-15Js will provide top cover as you can expect Foxhounds & Flankers to attempt to intercept.  Just like the real world...

Thanks for the reply. Yep, I'm getting from yours and KB's responses that I need much bigger flights to pull this off.  A question I have for you and KB, is whether I should prioritize secondary targets with my ASM equipped aircraft? Or in other words, If I have a flight of 4 loaded up with Walleye Mk.23 II's, would that be enough to go against the primary carrier target, leaving me to concentrate my 2nd & 3rd flights on secondaries like SAM equipped frigates?

[Edit] Oh and the game does seem to generate some decent support packages for me. The bigger problem I have with them is they often don't get to the target on time. I always fly the designated altitudes and speeds of the waypoints up to the ingress point, but I often find CAP and Escort flights lingering behind. That often forces me to slow down and command my wingman/flights to rejoin formation. That works, but it's not a given that those support packages won't eventually just piss-off and do their own thing somewhere else in theater. That said, I've been impressed with how well some of my escorts have given the floggers a real ass-kicking - especially those glorious and faithful Tomcats. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Arrow

[JosefK 911]

54 minutes ago, Arrow said:

Thanks for the reply. Yep, I'm getting from yours and KB's responses that I need much bigger flights to pull this off.  A question I have for you and KB, is whether I should prioritize secondary targets with my ASM equipped aircraft? Or in other words, If I have a flight of 4 loaded up with Walleye Mk.23 II's, would that be enough to go against the primary carrier target, leaving me to concentrate my 2nd & 3rd flights on secondaries like SAM equipped frigates?

[Edit] Oh and the game does seem to generate some decent support packages for me. The bigger problem I have with them is they often don't get to the target on time. I always fly the designated altitudes and speeds of the waypoints up to the ingress point, but I often find CAP and Escort flights lingering behind. That often forces me to slow down and command my wingman/flights to rejoin formation. That works, but it's not a given that those support packages won't eventually just piss-off and do their own thing somewhere else in theater. That said, I've been impressed with how well some of my escorts have given the floggers a real ass-kicking - especially those glorious and faithful Tomcats. 

My recommendation is have the primary four-ship go after the primary and the secondary four-ships lob missiles at secondary targets.  First, the primary target needs to be oversaturated. 

Second, timing the support flights takes a lot of work.  A lot....

[Mike Dora 171]

Just remember that the old Ark’s full air group was: 14 Buccs, 10 Phantoms, 4 Gannets, 8 Sea Kings, and 2 (plane guard) Wessex.

At least that’s what she carried when I had the privilege to be on board back in 1978.

Mike 

[Arrow 83]

Oh yeah, that's more like it! Now that I've got the Harpoon Block I and Block 1Bs available for my Hornet's, things are different. I loaded up 4 CF-188Bs with AGM-84A's, 4 with AGM-84C's and 4 with Walleye II's. The AGM-84C's did the trick and after 5 hits sunk the carrier. I fired last and it was a hoot to see my 4 AGM-84As plunge into the sea where a carrier had once been. Wow to the punch of the Walleye II - a single hit sunk a frigate. One of my pilots after firing off all his AGM-84As went guns against a Destroyer, landed 107 hits on it and survived to tell the story despite having 3 SAMs fired at him - psycho, absolutely psycho!

[+gerwin 451]

These SF2NA anti-ship strike missions are lots of fun!

There was a time that I still ran SF1 when SF2 was out for a while. But after playing with the SF2NA naval warfare features I never looked back.

Even without harpoon missiles it should be possible to sink some ships, when using an F/A-18 with CCIP bomb trajectory indicator on the HUD.

[Arrow 83]

On 2019-07-20 at 5:00 PM, gerwin said:

These SF2NA anti-ship strike missions are lots of fun!

There was a time that I still ran SF1 when SF2 was out for a while. But after playing with the SF2NA naval warfare features I never looked back.

Agreed, the naval warfare has been a challenge to learn, but it's now become the best experience I've had with the any game in the series.

On 2019-07-20 at 5:00 PM, gerwin said:

Even without harpoon missiles it should be possible to sink some ships, when using an F/A-18 with CCIP bomb trajectory indicator on the HUD.

I'm not sure of whether I have a CCIP in the CF-188B, but I have been getting good results using the EOD's like the Maverick a and have been wracking up lots of kills with the Laser guided Paveway II's. Verdict's still out a bit on the AGM-65a though, as I seem to have to get within 4 NM for it to be accurate, whereas everything I've read, including Bunyap's Weapon Delivery guide, states that I should be able to be accurate up to 7.5 NM  out from the target. I am firing them at very low elevation, but even so you're supposed to have a decent chance after 7.5 NM, but  fired from 7.5 - 4 NM my mavericks just hit the dirt or dive into the sea.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Arrow

[+gerwin 451]

Didn't all 'teen'-fighter series come with CCIP? Including any F/A-18.The classic Mirage Factory  F/A-18A package has it.  It is a very practical indicator, and the dumb bombs waste no space and weight to rocket motor and sensors.

I will try the AGM-65A and see what it does.

Edited July 23, 2019 by gerwin

[Arrow 83]

23 minutes ago, gerwin said:

Didn't all 'teen'-fighter series come with CCIP? Including any F/A-18.The classic Mirage Factory  F/A-18A package has it.  It is a very practical indicator, and the dumb bombs waste no space and weight to rocket motor and sensors.

Well the CF-188B mod is based on the Team Hornet F/A-18, so if the latter has it then it should be there.  I have the CCIP mod for the Intruder from the A-6 Superpack and it's an excellent mod that makes one heckuva difference. Maybe I'm just not loading the correct armaments to see it in the CF188B?