F-5C Avionics

[+daddyairplanes 10,243]

thats interesting

would you mind sharing the ini entries? this could be useful in the future for somebody

[+sophocles 1,345]

Here are the entries from the data.ini

// Weapon Stations -----------------------------------pylon weights from Flight Manual 

[LeftSidewinderStation]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=1
StationGroupID=1
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=-3.77,-0.28,-0.21
AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,90.0
LoadLimit=200.0
AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,FT
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
SpecificStationCode=HAF
LaunchRailNodeName=Left_WingRail
LaunchRailMass=22.23
FuelTankName=F5a_wingtip_left_tank
FuelTankNodeName=wingtip_left_tank
NoJettisionTank=TRUE 

[RightSidewinderStation]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=2
StationGroupID=1
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=3.77,-0.28,-0.21
AttachmentAngles=0.0,-2.0,-90.0
LoadLimit=200.0
AllowedWeaponClass=IRM,FT
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
SpecificStationCode=HAF
LaunchRailNodeName=Right_WingRail
LaunchRailMass=22.23
FuelTankName=F5a_wingtip_left_tank
FuelTankNodeName=wingtip_right_tank
NoJettisionTank=TRUE 

[LeftWingStationOutboard]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=3
StationGroupID=2
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=-2.907,0.70,-0.653
AttachmentAngles=0.0,-0.75,0.0
DiameterLimit=0.490
LoadLimit=420.00
AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,RP,CGR
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Left_Pylon_outer
PylonMass=54.89
PylonDragArea=0.02

[RightWingStationOutboard]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=4
StationGroupID=2
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=2.907,0.70,-0.653
AttachmentAngles=0.0,-0.75,0.0
DiameterLimit=0.490
LoadLimit=420.00
AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,RP,CGR
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Right_Pylon_outer
PylonMass=54.89
PylonDragArea=0.02

[LeftWingStationInboard]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=5
StationGroupID=3
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=-2.154,0.395,-0.653
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
DiameterLimit=0.490
LoadLimit=520.0
AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,RP,FT,GP,CGR
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Left_Pylon_inner
PylonMass=51.71
PylonDragArea=0.03
FuelTankName=F5a_FuelTank_150
FuelTankNodeName=FuelTank_150_UnderWing

[RightWingStationInboard]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=6
StationGroupID=3
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=2.154,0.395,-0.653
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
DiameterLimit=0.490
LoadLimit=520.00
AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,RP,FT,GP,CGR
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Right_Pylon_inner
PylonMass=51.71
PylonDragArea=0.03
FuelTankName=F5a_FuelTank_150
FuelTankNodeName=FuelTank_150_UnderWing

[LeftWingStationInboardAltFT]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=7
StationGroupID=3
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=-2.154,0.395,-0.653
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
DiameterLimit=0.490
LoadLimit=520.00
AllowedWeaponClass=FT,
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Left_Pylon_inner
PylonMass=51.71
PylonDragArea=0.03
FuelTankName=F5a_FuelTank_SF150
FuelTankNodeName=FuelTank_SF150_UnderWing

[RightWingStationInboardAltFT]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=8
StationGroupID=3
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=2.154,0.395,-0.653
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
DiameterLimit=0.490
LoadLimit=520.00
AllowedWeaponClass=FT,
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Right_Pylon_inner
PylonMass=51.71
PylonDragArea=0.03
FuelTankName=F5a_FuelTank_SF150
FuelTankNodeName=FuelTank_SF150_UnderWing

[CenterlineStation]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=9
StationGroupID=4
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=0.0,2.462,-0.668
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=1000.00
AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,FT,GP,NUC,RCN
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Pylon_center
PylonMass=58.51
PylonDragArea=0.02
FuelTankName=F5a_FuelTank_150_Centre
FuelTankNodeName=FuelTank_150_Centre

[CenterlineStationAltFT]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=10
StationGroupID=4
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=0.0,2.462,-0.668
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=1000.00
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
ModelNodeName=Pylon_center
PylonMass=58.51
PylonDragArea=0.02
FuelTankName=F5a_FuelTank_SF150_Centre
FuelTankNodeName=FuelTank_SF150_Centre

[Fuel_probe]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=11
StationGroupID=5
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=1.4, 3.54, 0.22
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0, 0.0
LoadLimit=50
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
AttachmentType=USAF
ModelNodeName=
PylonMass=0.00
PylonDragArea=0.001
LaunchRailNodeName=
MinExtentPosition=
MaxExtentPosition=
FuelTankNodeName=Refueling_pipe_1
FuelTankName=F-5C_Fuel_Probe
NoJettisionTank=TRUE 

[LeftPylonInner]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=12
StationGroupID=7
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=-3.25,0.30,-0.85
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=520.00
DiameterLimit=0.5
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
ModelNodeName=
PylonMass=0
PylonDragArea=0
FuelTankName=BombPylon
FuelTankNodeName=Left_Pylon_inner
NoJettisionTank=FALSE

[RightPylonInner]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=13
StationGroupID=7
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=3.25,0.30,-0.85
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=520.00
DiameterLimit=0.5
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
ModelNodeName=
PylonMass=0
PylonDragArea=0
FuelTankName=BombPylon
FuelTankNodeName=Right_Pylon_inner
NoJettisionTank=FALSE

[LeftPylonOuter]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=14
StationGroupID=8
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=-3.25,0.30,-0.85
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=520.00
DiameterLimit=0.5
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
ModelNodeName=
PylonMass=0
PylonDragArea=0
FuelTankName=BombPylon
FuelTankNodeName=Left_Pylon_outer
NoJettisionTank=FALSE

[RightPylonOuter]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=15
StationGroupID=8
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=3.25,0.30,-0.85
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=520.00
DiameterLimit=0.5
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
ModelNodeName=
PylonMass=0
PylonDragArea=0
FuelTankName=BombPylon
FuelTankNodeName=Right_Pylon_outer
NoJettisionTank=FALSE

[CenterlineStationPylon]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=16
StationGroupID=7
StationType=EXTERNAL
AttachmentPosition=3.25,0.30,-0.85
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=1000.00
DiameterLimit=0.5
AllowedWeaponClass=FT
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
ModelNodeName=
PylonMass=0
PylonDragArea=0
FuelTankName=BombPylon
FuelTankNodeName=Pylon_center
NoJettisionTank=FALSE

 

and here are the entries from the loadout.ini..

//.............Loadout for F-5C Skoshi Tiger, Ver 1.0 by Sophocles

// Station 1 = Left Wingtip Station
// Station 2 = Right Wingtip Station 
// Station 3 = Left Wing Station Outboard
// Station 4 = Right Wing Station Outboard
// Station 5 = Left Wing Station Inboard
// Station 6 = Right Wing Station Inboard
// Station 7 = Left Inboard Station Alt FT
// Station 8 = Right Inboard Station Alt FT
// Station 9 = Centerline Fuselage Station
// Station 10 = Centerline Alternative Fuel Tank
// Station 11 = Refueling Probe
// Station 12 = Jettisonable Left Wing Pylon Inboard
// Station 13 = Jettisonable Right Wing Pylon Inboard
// Station 14 = Jettisonable Left Wing Pylon Outboard
// Station 15 = Jettisonable Right Wing Pylon Outboard
// Station 16 = Jettisonable Centerline Pylon

[AirToAir]
Loadout[01].WeaponType=AIM-9B
Loadout[01].Quantity=1
Loadout[02].WeaponType=AIM-9B
Loadout[02].Quantity=1
Loadout[09].WeaponType=F5a_FuelTank_150_Centre
Loadout[09].Quantity=1
Loadout[12].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[12].Quantity=1
Loadout[13].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[13].Quantity=1
Loadout[14].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[14].Quantity=1
Loadout[15].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[15].Quantity=1
Loadout[16].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[16].Quantity=1

[AirToAirLongRange]
Loadout[01].WeaponType=AIM-9B
Loadout[01].Quantity=1
Loadout[02].WeaponType=AIM-9B
Loadout[02].Quantity=1
Loadout[07].WeaponType=F5a_FuelTank_SF150
Loadout[07].Quantity=1
Loadout[08].WeaponType=F5a_FuelTank_SF150
Loadout[08].Quantity=1
Loadout[10].WeaponType=F5a_FuelTank_SF150_Centre
Loadout[10].Quantity=1
Loadout[12].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[12].Quantity=1
Loadout[13].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[13].Quantity=1
Loadout[14].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[14].Quantity=1
Loadout[15].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[15].Quantity=1
Loadout[16].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[16].Quantity=1

[Attack]
Loadout[01].WeaponType=F5a_wingtip_left_tank
Loadout[01].Quantity=1
Loadout[02].WeaponType=F5a_wingtip_left_tank
Loadout[02].Quantity=1
Loadout[03].WeaponType=LAU-3A_Mk40_Mk1
Loadout[03].Quantity=1
Loadout[04].WeaponType=LAU-3A_Mk40_Mk1
Loadout[04].Quantity=1
Loadout[05].WeaponType=MK82
Loadout[05].Quantity=1
Loadout[06].WeaponType=MK82
Loadout[06].Quantity=1
Loadout[09].WeaponType=F5a_FuelTank_150_Centre
Loadout[09].Quantity=1
Loadout[12].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[12].Quantity=1
Loadout[13].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[13].Quantity=1
Loadout[14].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[14].Quantity=1
Loadout[15].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[15].Quantity=1
Loadout[16].WeaponType=BombPylon
Loadout[16].Quantity=1
 

In bold are the "hidden" entries (fake pylons) that nonetheless appear in-game as they should.

 

Sophocles

[+dtmdragon 2,704]

My only suggestion is instead of a fake fuel tank use a fake rocket pod with no rockets. This way your pylons will stay when you jettison your fuel tanks (ctrl-d) but jettison when you jettison all your air-to-ground ordnance (ctrl-j). By being empty the AI won't try and use them as an actual rocket pod.

Edited August 14, 2022 by dtmdragon

[+sophocles 1,345]

1 hour ago, dtmdragon said:

My only suggestion is instead of a fake fuel tank use a fake rocket pod with no rockets. This way your pylons will stay when you jettison your fuel tanks (ctrl-d) but jettison when you jettison all your air-to-ground ordnance (ctrl-j). By being empty the AI won't try and use them as an actual rocket pod.

dtmdragon,  now I see the problem.. when I jettison my fuel tanks I lose my pylons as well :(

Could you send over(attach) a fake rocket pod so that I can experiment with it?  Much obliged!!

[+dtmdragon 2,704]

Check out the TW lighting F.1 data.ini but I may have steered you wrong now that I think about it

[+sophocles 1,345]

2 hours ago, dtmdragon said:

Check out the TW lighting F.1 data.ini but I may have steered you wrong now that I think about it

How do you mean?

[+sophocles 1,345]

4 hours ago, sophocles said:

My only suggestion is instead of a fake fuel tank use a fake rocket pod with no rockets. This way your pylons will stay when you jettison your fuel tanks (ctrl-d) but jettison when you jettison all your air-to-ground ordnance (ctrl-j).

I understand, but which entries in the data.ini would make the fake rocket pod/pylon jettisonable?  When using fake fuel tanks there is an entry called NoJettisionTank=FALSE which serves this purpose.

[+dtmdragon 2,704]

36 minutes ago, sophocles said:

I understand, but which entries in the data.ini would make the fake rocket pod/pylon jettisonable?  When using fake fuel tanks there is an entry called NoJettisionTank=FALSE which serves this purpose.

From the Lightning F1 data.ini:

[RocketPack1]
SystemType=WEAPON_STATION
StationID=3
StationGroupID=1
StationType=INTERNAL     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< change to external and add in values for drag/ weight of the pylon or keep at 0 and have the values in the fake rocket pod with no rockets. Remove all the bomb bay animations etc
AttachmentPosition=-0.40,2.97,-1.30
AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0
LoadLimit=500
AllowedWeaponClass=RP
AttachmentType=UK
ModelNodeName=rockets_pack     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< use the node name of the F-5 weapon pylon
HideNodeName=no_weapon_pack     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< won't need this
DoNotDetachPylon=TRUE     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< play around to see what effect this has
NoJettision=TRUE     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< change to False
BombBayAnimationID=5
BombBayOpenTime=0.5
BombBayCloseTime=0.5
AutomaticDoors=TRUE
GroupAnimation=TRUE
SpecificStationCode=LIGHTNING_RP1      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< change to match what you use for the Fake rocket pod with no rockets.

 

Example of a fake rocket pod with no rockets:

[WeaponData001]
TypeName=LAU-3A    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< F-5_Pylon
FullName=LAU-3A Rocket Pod    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< F-5 Weapon Pylon
ModelName=LAU-3A    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< remove model name
Mass=35.299999
Diameter=0.420000
Length=2.350000
SubsonicDragCoeff=0.200000
SupersonicDragCoeff=0.770000
AttachmentType=USAF,NATO
SpecificStationCode=    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< F-5_Pylon
NationName=USAF
StartYear=1948
EndYear=0
Availability=3
BaseQuantity=50
Exported=TRUE
ExportStartYear=1948
ExportEndYear=0
ExportAvailability=0
WeaponDataType=2
RailLaunched=FALSE
RocketTypeName=Mk40_M151    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< change to anything that is not an actual rocket eg "NO_ROCKET"
NumRockets=19
ROF=10.500000
FireEffectName=RocketPodEffect
FireEffectTime=0.150000
FrontCoverNodeName=Front_Cover   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< remove
RearCoverNodeName=
ShowRockets=TRUE    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< False
Rocket01Position=-0.074000,-0.080000,-0.128000
Rocket02Position=0.074000,-0.080000,-0.128000
Rocket03Position=-0.111000,-0.080000,-0.064000
Rocket04Position=0.111000,-0.080000,-0.064000
Rocket05Position=-0.148000,-0.080000,0.000000
Rocket06Position=0.148000,-0.080000,0.000000
Rocket07Position=-0.111000,-0.080000,0.064000
Rocket08Position=0.111000,-0.080000,0.064000
Rocket09Position=-0.074000,-0.080000,0.128000
Rocket10Position=0.074000,-0.080000,0.128000
Rocket11Position=0.000000,-0.080000,-0.128000
Rocket12Position=0.000000,-0.080000,0.128000
Rocket13Position=-0.037000,-0.080000,-0.064000
Rocket14Position=0.037000,-0.080000,0.064000
Rocket15Position=0.037000,-0.080000,-0.064000
Rocket16Position=-0.037000,-0.080000,0.064000
Rocket17Position=0.074000,-0.080000,0.000000
Rocket18Position=-0.074000,-0.080000,0.000000
Rocket19Position=0.000000,-0.080000,0.000000

Edited August 14, 2022 by dtmdragon

[+sophocles 1,345]

56 minutes ago, dtmdragon said:

From the Lightning F1 data.ini:

I followed your instructions to the letter .. but no joy :) .. the pylon doesn't jettison.

[+sophocles 1,345]

This is the fake rocket pod I've tried to use but it doesn't show up at all in the arming screen so there's definitely something wrong.  Any ideas anyone

[WeaponData001]
TypeName=F-5C_Pylon
FullName=F-5C Weapon Pylon
ModelName=
Mass=35.299999
Diameter=0.420000
Length=2.000000
SubsonicDragCoeff=0.200000
SupersonicDragCoeff=0.770000
AttachmentType=NATO,USAF
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
NationName=USAF
StartYear=0
EndYear=0
Availability=0
BaseQuantity=0
Exported=FALSE
ExportStartYear=0
ExportEndYear=0
ExportAvailability=0
WeaponDataType=2
RailLaunched=FALSE
RocketTypeName=NO_ROCKET
NumRockets=19
ROF=0.000000
FireEffectName=RocketPodEffect
FireEffectTime=0.150000
//FrontCoverNodeName=Front_Cover
RearCoverNodeName=
ShowRockets=FALSE

[+sophocles 1,345]

.. and here is the fake FT functioning as a pylon; this actually works just fine!

[WeaponData001]
TypeName=BombPylon
FullName=Bomb pylon
ModelName=
ModelNodeName=
Mass=0
Diameter=0
Length=0
SubsonicDragCoeff=0
SupersonicDragCoeff=0
AttachmentType=
SpecificStationCode=Pylon
NationName=
StartYear=0
EndYear=0
Availability=0
BaseQuantity=0
Exported=FALSE
ExportStartYear=0
ExportEndYear=0
ExportAvailability=0
WeaponDataType=5
MaxFuelAmount=0.0
Asymmetrical=FALSE
HideStationPylon=FALSE

 

[+sophocles 1,345]

Sorry to be a pain fellas but does anyone know of a plane in the download section which has an example of a fake rocket pod with no rockets (being repurposed to a pylon or anything else)?

I really want to make this work!  Thanks in advance

[+daddyairplanes 10,243]

dont know about fake rocket pods, but i made the Hound Dog Pylons on the B-52G_89 into gun pods so they could be selected in the dropdown menu.

in my case i wanted them to be selected as there was teh shorter HSAB pylon and the longer Hound Dog one

not the best examples out there, but you can compare notes and see if you come up with something that helps

B-52G_89_DATA.7z

AGM28Pylon2.7z

 

[+sophocles 1,345]

3 hours ago, daddyairplanes said:

but you can compare notes and see if you come up with something that helps

Much obliged daddyairplanes!  I'll check them out.

[+sophocles 1,345]

Hello Gents, sadly, after days of creating pylons as fake rocket pods and fake gun pods, I've had no luck in getting the pylons to jettison using these fake weapons .. it seems that the parameter of NoJettision=FALSE just doesn't work :(

The only thing that does work, is creating pylons as fake Fuel Tanks, which although jettison just fine, also have the dawback of jettisoning when one uses CTRL-D to jettison the fuel tanks.

Completely heartbroken, I think the only workaround is to use loadouts which have either weapons or tanks .. NOT both.  The weapon only loadouts would have no need for the CTRL-D command since obviously there are no external fuel tanks, but they would keep the wing-tip tanks and have the refueling probe selected (with some imagination, aircraft with the probe can refuel in flight.. cough, cough! .. and they will be able to jettison all 5 pylons with the jettison stores command (CTRL=J)!  When using loadouts with no weapons (eg:Recce) the fuel tanks can be jettisoned, but the pylons stay.

..or I can just write all this off as a bad job and revert to the conventional way; where jettisoning pylons is simply not possible.

I'd appreciate some feedback fellas; what do you guys think would better option?

Edited August 16, 2022 by sophocles

[Wrench 9,848]

Been that way with the Sabres, too. They also jettisoned the pylons with the tanks. But our in-game model keeps the pylons.

Since I'm a lazy sod (with no 3d talent!) I would take the standard "game engine" way, and just keep the pylons on the aircraft. Maybe add an explination in the read me that "in the Real World (tm), the tanks and pylons are dumped together".

Sometimes we have to give up accuracy for playability. Or game engine limits.

[+daddyairplanes 10,243]

or only available model limits (mainly skins but...)!

[+yakarov79 11,089]

As Wrench said. In many cases we have to close one eye and live with what we have.. otherwise you will end up creating fake pylon for fake pod to have fuel tank with fake fuel...

Complicated things are ok for some home personal adjustments..but in general release 4 out of 10 will get confused..ask too much questions..call you incompetennt modder etc...

@Wrench but Hogs are jettisoning correctly? Otherwise we have to correct them...

 

It is possible to jettison pylon..but then pylon must be weapon rack...2br,ter,mer...you are using invisible pylon as parrent and rack with specific station code. Bomb racks are jettisoned with ordnance. And you need to create myltiple meshes for different loadouts. 

So for single bomb you have pylon which would be a 2br with limit one bomb

For 3 bombs you have to copy 3d mesh of pylon and add desired  ter to model also. Then it will be another rack (ter in that case) which will be jettisoned.

Hope this mambojumboo is understandable...i am in train now and can not explain it with examples

 ...if not i can explain more on weekend. 

 

[+sophocles 1,345]

17 minutes ago, yakarov79 said:

otherwise you will end up creating fake pylon for fake pod to have fuel tank with fake fuel...

I hear you brother!

[+sophocles 1,345]

18 minutes ago, yakarov79 said:

So for single bomb you have pylon which would be a 2br with limit one bomb

This interests me; by "2br" you mean two bomb racks?  Why two? .. you mean the invisible pylon + the visible one acting as the rack?

I could easily link the existing pylon to an invisible "parent pylon" and thus use the "child", visible pylon as a rack but I'd really need more info about doing the ini dance for the racks though.

Whenever you have the time Yakarov79 I'd love some more info

[Wrench 9,848]

yakarov: no, our Sabre Hogs are good! I have some pictures in the Crowood book that shows the pylons with no tanks attached.

 

-- sorry for the thread hijack ---