Questions about DLL files editing / modding

[Eagle114th 541]

Hello everyonem,

My wfie and I are contiuning with our excellent health recover.  Ther is onething I have been wondering about and that is DLL files.

The reason why I am asking about DLL files editing / modding;

SF2 is not maintained nor update for many years.  It is modders that have been keeping it alive.  I am in the wonderful community that have passions as I do for Jane's combat simulation series and weare modding it.  Even though I am on break from SF modding, in order, to allow my eye recover, I was wondering if it is possible to edit one of ancient simulation file, such as Jane's Fighter Anthology .exe files, because of awesome active modding community.  We honor the ethics by keeping mods free and sharing our hobbies, as we do in here combatace.

So I was wondering how can exe be understood? Out of curiousity, I took a look at HEX editing and then used x32dbg diseassebly and realized that the codes coudl be read in an assemlby langauge.  However, I am not that experienced nor famliar with it yet. At the same time, by using AI to interpret the codes (Whiel being well aware that AI is currenlty still flawed and alwasy give geneic responses, still now is good time to experiment with it, due to the rapid advancement of AI technologies.)

However, there is one thing that came up as an idea;  What if we could edit the codes in DLL files that allow us to have unlocked moddability of avionics, enabling Gs limiters, and something like that.  But again, I am concdenred about it becauser I do not know what combatace community feels about it.  This is precisely why I haven't touched DLL files yet. I want to ensure it is done in ethical ways.

If we contiune on the very limited methods of modding (Only iini. editing and adding 3D models), then we are stuck with the same limitatino of moddings.  The community is currently small.  We want for communty to be alive and become bigger again, therefore is why I want to ask about it.  There is no another simulations out there that did excellent jobs as Thirdwsire did with Strike Fighter 2, as well as Jane's combat series did, what they managed to create;

- Low Fidelity simulation that is semi-realistic

This means we do not worry bout 'study sim', but we are required to learn about the limitations and characters of each aircraft, weaopns, avionics, etc.. IT is not arcade like ace combat nor too hardcore like "Study sim" DCS. It is just golden balance.  Even though SF2 is missing air to ground radar veatures in avionics aspect.

- Moddiblity, SF2 in heart, is desigend to be most moddable sim out there, it would be wasted potiental if DLL wasn't studied to allow expanded modding in ethical ways.  


EDIT #1:
I talked with oen of modders, he / she gave me an excellent ideas.  What I understand is that historically, TK do not mind the modding, however as long his files wasn't shared.  So the idea is to create the installer that would modify the DLL files and allow us to add an external files that would enable DLL to read?

EDIT #2: I realized we also could use Wrapper DLL, it intercepts calls to the original DLL and modifies them as needed before passing them on.

I would like to know what combatace feels about this.


Eagle114th

Edited October 13, 2023 by Eagle114th

[+EricJ 3,989]

I personally don't have an issue with it myself of course. Any fixing/adding stuff is always welcome.

[Eagle114th 541]

14 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I personally don't have an issue with it myself of course. Any fixing/adding stuff is always welcome.

Agreed wholeheartedly!

Just to show what I see from x32dbg (Please note, there are x32dbg and x64dbg, if we want to look into 32 bit software, then we use x32dbg) when opening Avionics60.dll



This could be hlepful to the modders when looking at DLL files.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Eagle114th

[Eagle114th 541]

I want to add one more thing, if we are going to start looking into DLL files, we should create seperated theads that discuss about modifying each DLL files, such as avionics60.DLL, avioncis70.DLL, HUD.DLL, and any another DLL related to flighht model (like adding Gs limiters as an example), AI and etc...  If we discuss about all DLLs in one thread, it would get quite chaotic.

[+EricJ 3,989]

33 minutes ago, Eagle114th said:

Agreed wholeheartedly!

Just to show what I see from x32dbg (Please note, there are x32dbg and x64dbg, if we want to look into 32 bit software, then we use x32dbg) when opening Avionics60.dll



This could be hlepful to the modders when looking at DLL files.

Yeah all that stuff is stuff I don't understand. If I understood it I'd probably start a project like yours just to do something around here.

[Eagle114th 541]

33 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Yeah all that stuff is stuff I don't understand. If I understood it I'd probably start a project like yours just to do something around here.

I am in the same boat as you are, I am clueless about this.  At least, what we can do is share what we see is avaiable for modders to look at.  Hopefully modders can get hand on this.

[bazillius 1,254]

For me, this is a good idea. I see that SF2 is already, rather, an abandonware. But now the moderators will wake up and they'll hit you on the hat with a hammer . And we will continue to play the outdated game by ethically way. Ones has tried many times to discuss editing dlls and it always ended like this.

[Eagle114th 541]

24 minutes ago, bazillius said:

For me, this is a good idea. I see that SF2 is already, rather, an abandonware. But now the moderators will wake up and they'll hit you on the hat with a hammer . And we will continue to play the outdated game by ethically way. Ones has tried many times to discuss editing dlls and it always ended like this.

That is noted. I stil have the hopes in this and that the misunderstanding would be solved.  It is understandable that they want to protect the ethical ways of doiing things and this is what we are dong and bring this up in an ethical way.

However, thank you for the head up about what can happen.

By the way, thank you for the supports in this, SF2 deserve to be given another chance to shine even brighter if we maange to mod the DLLs files, in order to allow us to add more features to it.

[bazillius 1,254]

1 hour ago, Eagle114th said:

I stil have the hopes

hope never dies

[simonmiller416 1,160]

Personally speaking, I certainly hope that SF2 can improve like BMS.

[+Coupi 4,295]

Ten years ago... the ultimate TW update ! 

Updating the current avionics shouldn't be a disgrace given the time our community members spend supporting and improving this game from 20 years.

P. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Coupi

[Eagle114th 541]

5 hours ago, bazillius said:

hope never dies

That's right! I love this quote.  This is very true especailly in my life experiences when going through many challenges.  I always live by thiese quotes "Alwasy have hope", "Never give up", "have faith, even if thing seem not to work out." 

Thank you for the quote.

Cheers!

[Eagle114th 541]

1 hour ago, simonmiller416 said:

Personally speaking, I certainly hope that SF2 can improve like BMS.

That would be interesting, and I would like to add my persepctive here.  I lvoe discussing something like this!

I would ike your thoguhts on this:  I believe it would be great if we could add more features to it while keeping it in the scope of being 'low fidelity' with semi-complex / semi reallism to it.  For eample, what I believe is truy needed for SF2:

- Gs limiter (FInaly no more going over 10 or even 12= Gs or over -4 Gs, even for AI
- More details / depths in air to ground targets radar operation (We need air to ground lockable targets and other features, thhat is as details, if not more detailed than Air to Air radar.  However, keep in mind, we do not want to turn this into DCS "Study sim' with millin butotns, BUT we can stay in between where SF2 iis now and add a bit more spices to it. :)
- moveable / controlable FLIR / TV in MDF -> this have been very needed for a long time!
- no more gunsight / CCIP going beyond glass panel / HUD
- More to list

[+Gunrunner 313]

Just chiming in...

If you go that direction, there are two ways to distribute this kind of mods that won't go against TK's intellectual rights :

- Distribute replacement DLL/EXE using only new code. (What OpenTTD is to Transport Tycoon Deluxe, even though the "new" code on early versions was questionnable)

- Distribute a patcher and patches. (What TTDPatch was to Transport Tycoon Deluxe)

The reverse engineering is, in most jurisdictions, not illegal, so long as what you're reverse engineering has been obtained legally, and you're not illegally redistributing what you obtained from it.

Then there is the contractual issues, by installing SF2 we agree to a long forgotten EULA, does that EULA prevent reverse-engineering ? Is that EULA legally enforceable ? Is TK still willing to defend it ?

Mods tend to frown upon it because allowing it would open a can of worm, with many people not understand what they can and can't do, exposing the site to legal consequences for facilitating it. I don't agree with the heavy handed approach at times on these topics but I completely understand why as it could turn into a shitshow extremely fast.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Gunrunner

[Eagle114th 541]

1 hour ago, Coupi said:

Ten years ago... the ultimate TW update ! 

Updating the current avionics shouldn't be a disgrace given the time our community members spend supporting and improving this game from 20 years.

P. 

I agreed with you!  It is like you said, there are huge passions that the communty have poured into SF1 and SF2 for many years and is still modding it to this very day. As I have stated before and will state it again, SF2 deserves to be given another chance of being expanded further with moddability.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Eagle114th

[Eagle114th 541]

1 hour ago, Gunrunner said:

Just chiming in...

If you go that direction, there are two ways to distribute this kind of mods that won't go against TK's intellectual rights :

- Distribute replacement DLL/EXE using only new code. (What OpenTTD is to Transport Tycoon Deluxe, even though the "new" code on early versions was questionnable)

- Distribute a patcher and patches. (What TTDPatch was to Transport Tycoon Deluxe)

The reverse engineering is, in most jurisdictions, not illegal, so long as what you're reverse engineering has been obtained legally, and you're not illegally redistributing what you obtained from it.

Then there is the contractual issues, by installing SF2 we agree to a long forgotten EULA, does that EULA prevent reverse-engineering ? Is that EULA legally enforceable ? Is TK still willing to defend it ?

Mods tend to frown upon it because allowing it would open a can of worm, with many people not understand what they can and can't do, exposing the site to legal consequences for facilitating it. I don't agree with the heavy handed approach at times on these topics but I completely understand why as it could turn into a shitshow extremely fast.

I am glad you bought this up, this is what we, combatace modders, intend to do:

- Do this in ethical and non-commerical ways, combatace always stand on being free mods. This is why I love combatace, we always share the mods freely.

- While we find a way to either ehtically share modified DLL files only or create installer / DLL wrapper that would modify the DLL and have it read an external modder created files, it still honor the most important condition:  it requires a legal copy of SF2, therefore honoring the copyright.

This is ilke situation with SAS 1946 and another communiteis that goes deep into core of IL-2 1946 engine, they stil require people to have a legal copy of IL-2 1946, in order, to run the mega mod packs such as B.A.T.S as an example.  They respect the copyright of IL-2 1946 / properities.

Thank you for bring this up, in order, to ensure we do not forget to respect the properities of TK simulation. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Eagle114th

[bazillius 1,254]

I apologize for the skepticism, but in my opinion, it’s too late to try to pull the SF2 game out of the river of oblivion Lethe, because those who were full of enthusiasm to program something have already died of old age. I remember the times when there were programmers here who, among other things, offered reverse engineering. Now no one will seriously engage in this, because the average age of the player is 50+. It was necessary to give us as a gift the game game in 2015-2016. Then this game would be better than Falcon BMS. And now... So.. Oldmans, lets fly with what we have.

PS but if you want and you feel the strength to fight against the system and Peace, order, and good government try to do.

[Eagle114th 541]

49 minutes ago, bazillius said:

I apologize for the skepticism, but in my opinion, it’s too late to try to pull the SF2 game out of the river of oblivion Lethe, because those who were full of enthusiasm to program something have already died of old age. I remember the times when there were programmers here who, among other things, offered reverse engineering. Now no one will seriously engage in this, because the average age of the player is 50+. It was necessary to give us as a gift the game game in 2015-2016. Then this game would be better than Falcon BMS. And now... So.. Oldmans, lets fly with what we have.

PS but if you want and you feel the strength to fight against the system and Peace, order, and good government try to do.

Thank you for posting your thoughts, and I can understand your frustration.   It is perfectly normal to be skeptical and it is understandable.  We all have been there.   However, you will probably be quite surprised when I say this:

There are still community that are still modding simulation  that are even older than SF2, they are Jane's series simulatoin, as wel as IL-2 1946.  Jane's Fighter Anthology came out in 1996, and IL-2 1946 came out after 2000 (Please correct me if I am wrong about the year IL-2 was first released).  It is true that vast numbers of modders moved on or no longer are in this world.  And yet, some of us still come back and start modding the old simulation again because, no matter what age we are, we stil miss the genius designs of these simulations.  Now I think about it, I remembered the people saying "It's time to move on, we have to drop the old sims, no one is coming back" with the Jane's series sim and IL-2 1946, and yet they come back to it later on.

About BMS and other simulation, regrettably I have to disagree with you due to this reasons:  I am not fan of 'study' sim, that requires me tons of hours just to fly one aircraft.  I am 'low fidelity" simulation guy that loves semi-realism / semi-complex sim like Jane's series simulation and Thirdwire SF2.  There is no another sim like this, therefore I stick with Jane's series sim, IL-2 1946 (With complex engine management turned off), and SF2.  If you know another sim that are like SF2 that is moddability and is low fideity, please let me know and I will happily check it out.  I forgot to mention, Jane's series sim, Il-2 1946, and SF2 have captions and other features that are user-friendly for my sensory disabiliites.  For now there is none after good sim that matches my desires and needs in the sim after searching for long times. The only one I can find that have potient to become like SF2 and that is TCA (Tiny Combat Arena).  We will have to see how TCA develops through time.

However, the life taught me one thing, life is filled with surprises, just like the community that still mods Jane's Fighter Anthology.  My jaw was dropped and I did a small modding with them for sakes of nostaglic.  Even though the community here is shrinking, it does not prevent us from having passions for SF2, despite how TK handled the community and his alcking of communication with us.  This is why I want ot bring this up and  see if anything comes out from it.  It does not hurt to at least try.  I have the hopes that this community always stay alive from now on to the future. 

I want to add one more thing, if this ideas do not come out as I hope it would, then I have no regert. It mean I would try again in the future until something greater eventualy appear.


Cheers!

Edited October 13, 2023 by Eagle114th

[simonmiller416 1,160]

Hey, I think you're a little misunderstood on this one.

What I mean is that it is not necessary to simulate like DCS or BMS, but to see how they evolved from the original Falcon4.0 to F4 BMS.

Edited October 13, 2023 by simonmiller416

[Eagle114th 541]

1 minute ago, simonmiller416 said:

Hey, I think you're a little misunderstood on this one.

What I mean is that it is not necessary to simulate like DCS or BMS, but to see how they evolved from the original Falcon4.0 to F4 BMS.

Ah i see, that is noted. My apologize for misunderstanidng.  That is a good point.  I agree with this.  Same thing happened with Il-2 1946 that became IL-2 1946 B.A.T.S.

If you don't mind me asking, I like to learn new thing severyday;

What is the biggest leap or changes from Falcon 4.0 to BMS? 

[simonmiller416 1,160]

4 minutes ago, Eagle114th said:

Ah i see, that is noted. My apologize for misunderstanidng.  That is a good point.  I agree with this.  Same thing happened with Il-2 1946 that became IL-2 1946 B.A.T.S.

If you don't mind me asking, I like to learn new thing severyday;

What is the biggest leap or changes from Falcon 4.0 to BMS? 

Haha, to me, it can be said that it is almost all, BMS has improved a game produced around the millennium (like those novalogic classic) into a modern game close to DCS. For SF2, what I hope for is as you said before, some new features.

The BMS project itself is Falcon 4.0, which has opened up its original code on a large scale, and programmers and retired pilots in the entire community have passionately participated in the development.

Edited October 13, 2023 by simonmiller416

[simonmiller416 1,160]

3 hours ago, Eagle114th said:

That would be interesting, and I would like to add my persepctive here.  I lvoe discussing something like this!

I would ike your thoguhts on this:  I believe it would be great if we could add more features to it while keeping it in the scope of being 'low fidelity' with semi-complex / semi reallism to it.  For eample, what I believe is truy needed for SF2:

- Gs limiter (FInaly no more going over 10 or even 12= Gs or over -4 Gs, even for AI
- More details / depths in air to ground targets radar operation (We need air to ground lockable targets and other features, thhat is as details, if not more detailed than Air to Air radar.  However, keep in mind, we do not want to turn this into DCS "Study sim' with millin butotns, BUT we can stay in between where SF2 iis now and add a bit more spices to it. :)
- moveable / controlable FLIR / TV in MDF -> this have been very needed for a long time!
- no more gunsight / CCIP going beyond glass panel / HUD
- More to list

I am a modern scripts enjoyer, and I would like to add some more to this, lol

- JHMCS/HMD ,this is almost a must for most fourth/fifth generation fighters, especially the F35, which has even removed the HUD . We can rely on the HMD to do a lot of very interesting things when fighting. It would be cool, and it would be very convenient to find targets when you have the data link.

- Datalink ,we all know that in SF2NA, when conducting naval campaigns/missions, there will be an AWACS hovering in the sky, although they are more like the atmosphere group in a nightclub,it will only answer our inquiries mechanically and provide inaccurate information. I think this is more of a design that enhances the immersion.If we have a data link, AWACS will become very useful. For example, hollow icons on the radar represent targets in the radar blind spot, and these targets can be displayed when there are early warning aircraft in the sky.

- Horizontal Situation Display/Tactical Awareness Display, needless to say, the MFD has an optional display mode that can read almost all battlefield situation information.

Edited October 13, 2023 by simonmiller416

[Eagle114th 541]

9 hours ago, simonmiller416 said:

I am a modern scripts enjoyer, and I would like to add some more to this, lol

- JHMCS/HMD ,this is almost a must for most fourth/fifth generation fighters, especially the F35, which has even removed the HUD . We can rely on the HMD to do a lot of very interesting things when fighting. It would be cool, and it would be very convenient to find targets when you have the data link.

- Datalink ,we all know that in SF2NA, when conducting naval campaigns/missions, there will be an AWACS hovering in the sky, although they are more like the atmosphere group in a nightclub,it will only answer our inquiries mechanically and provide inaccurate information. I think this is more of a design that enhances the immersion.If we have a data link, AWACS will become very useful. For example, hollow icons on the radar represent targets in the radar blind spot, and these targets can be displayed when there are early warning aircraft in the sky.

- Horizontal Situation Display/Tactical Awareness Display, needless to say, the MFD has an optional display mode that can read almost all battlefield situation information.

Excellent suggestions for DLL editing, theoretically (I use word "theoretically" for now until it DLL editing experiment is actualy start being done by modders here.)  I want to add more as well!

Every avionics that is available in SF2 should be expanded and be experienced immersively in SF2.  For example, when flying variants of A-4s, right now, it feel like they all are almost the same except for perfomance and cockpit. Now imagine, if having computer / avionics that is actually installed in different variants of A-4s?  For example, computer level bombing guidance for specific variants of A-4 that have it? CCRP in F-100s? Being able to do extra tasks when using ECM? Actually being able to take photo when using recon pod?  A bit more challenging when using radar, such as ground clutter if diving toward ground? More realistic technical limitation and issues when using radar in certain situations. 

WIth that, each variants of aircraft and their avionics upgrades actually can be experienced more depths, immersive, and details differently.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Eagle114th

[bazillius 1,254]

6 hours ago, Eagle114th said:

IL-2 1946.  Jane's Fighter Anthology came out in 1996, and IL-2 1946 .........  BMS

Well.... You remembered games with a long history, culture and traditions of making modifications that go back centuries. Moreover, serious parts of the game affecting the engine were immediately modified.

Just don’t take my words as me dissuading you. If you make new DLLs, I will happily download them and thank you. I myself once wanted to deal with the repacker and DLL. But at that time no one was interested in this.

SF2 Great game. One of my favorites. I will even ask to make the line  “here lies a SF2 player, devoted and played every day” on the stone of my crypt, and future generations of archaeologists will try figure out what this inscription means.

[Eagle114th 541]

Hello everyone,

I have managed to find a way to view the codes inside dll. It was quite journey.  However, it do not mean I have the full access or can edit it well yet.

What surprised me is that, with the right tools, I am able to view the classes of files in C++ languages.  It is quite interesting!

Keep in mind, I want to do this ethically and the right way.  I do not know what to do next, but to any modders who want to give it a try (experimenting with dll fiels), PM me.