Hedu VF-143

I figure it would be many things, but I wanna get your tale on it. I figure realistic avionics and flight systems, and carrier ops. What do you think, and don't be afraid to go into depth.

USAFMTL, I have something you don't have! 8) :D I have pics of the very first Crusader, the XF8, which is currently being restored near my house at Everret Museum of Flight Restoration site. I have pics and movies of it as of last week, and they are deep into work on a Cutlass also. One of my faves is the Vampire that they have there in pieces. E mail me and Maybe I can send you the Movies. I have a 56k, and if they are too big of files, I can burn a CD and send it. If you want all the movies I took last week we will have to do that. Reach me at Hedu@cnw.com

XO, I am all for free speech and common sense, and if you got views, I want to hear them. When you speak for the squad, then say that, when you speak for yourself, then say that, also. I don't care if someone says "I don't like the 143 because of _____". If that person can't tell the diff between a person and a squad, then thats their problem. These boards were made for discussion, and I like to argue, to have open discussion. I think you do to. Stick around, enjoy the show. <S>

Any info on what is being fixed? Sounds like a "roadmap" is a guideline to what to work on. Till they say what they are working on, they really haven't said much more than last time they said they were working on the 2nd patch. Not a flame, just an observation.

That CTD from pushing R is something I don't think your gonna fix unless you remap that button to somewhere else. I put my sound acceleration to the max, and have had no trouble. Not sure I can help you with prob 3 and 4. Hope someone can.

OK, don't answer that. I saw in a post that it went Casper, but I thought I saw them post at another board that it was the server that was down, and they would be up in a day or two. That was 2-3 weeks ago? I went to http://www.thirdwire.com/projects/rt/rt_index.htm . Is that the wrong site?

Ranger, do you have a link for the launcher? I have tried several times by doing searches for it, and have had NO luck at all.

Gecko, I don't think anyone is gonna flame you. I just don't understand your thinking that this thread "fell victim to the same crap". Too bad you can't stick around to discuss issues and debate good naturedly. Like everyone else did. Our future in this sim? Hard to tell. Kinda hard to have squad night when you can't do MP. <S>.........................hehehehe

Denzil, I could be bias, because my forte is WWII air combat sims, and there are mustangs everywhere in those. I fly Warbirds III, which has to have the closest-to-accurate flight model for the Mustang. I am fickle on the Mustang in this sim for the opposite reason this sim is popular. Sf has planes that weren't modeled since ATF, and then very arcadey. Very few sims with Phantoms, too many with Mustangs. And because there really isn't any theatre, enemy or historic airfields for the Mustang to take shape in, you might as well just be flying in FS2002. (which I do) I like Biohaz, Denzil. We have had some pretty good discussions, and even when heated, they seem to stay under control. So, got any inside info? 8)

Ranger, you said the word "turn". The Mig should NEVER turn. Thats the key, thats zoom and boom. The Mustang would be totally defensive. AI might try and turn with the Mustang, but any pilot worth his weight in beer knows not to turn. Strafe and extend.

I guess you could say, you proved my point. P-51 vs Mig 21, P-51 wins? Do you think that would happen much if it was in MP? Any pilot with boom and zoom knowledge would toast the P-51.

OK, 2 confirmed kills of Migs. Mig 15s, or Mig 9s? I am sure there are more battles between P-51s and Yaks. But this also confirms two points I made. That 1) encounters between Mustangs and Migs, in the scope of numbers, is miniscule. If the F-86s shot down almosy 800 migs, what is the percentage of Mig kills between Sabres and Mustangs? I can't do the math on it, but I know it involves whole numbers about 3 places to the RIGHT of the decimal. 2nd) it shows that a enemy that the Mustang had is not in the game for it to fight. No Mig 15s, no Yak Prop planes, no Mig Prop planes. Where is the fun of that. Playability is limited due to no historical adversary, and "what ifs" can only be interesting for while. We should get a chat thing, eh Ranger? :)

Ranger, we really CAN"T send that stuff. This is MP issues, where you can't join a session, or it crashes during loading, or it crashes during hangar screen, or it crashes rigth after hangar screen, or we get in and nobodies in the arena, or it crashes after getting into the arena, and I mean like 2 seconds after getting into the arena. We have done it with mods, without mods, different hosts, different terrains, just about everyway you can try. And I would have to say with all fairness, we cannot generate a screenshot from a crash. Out attempts have been noted over many boards, not just this one, and I would think Skunk works would know of them, particularly if Denzil (<S>) is here answering stuff on this board. SIMHQ was where the beta testers were, we thought it should at least be noticed there. Ranger, Snapples original frustrated post is because so much has been tried by our squad, not that it just popped up one night.

Oh, Ranger Just noticed the P-51 thing. Yes, third world countries did use the P-51, yet it wasn't exactly the P-51D model. Alot of these late war Mustangs were modified, which was noticable in the leading edge "kink" for the landing gear, and a fin added to the rudder to compensate for the problems of flight instabilty due to fuel tank placement. I usually get real literal when we take WWII planes, because models of the same plane can be very different planes in their own right, as is the P-51/F-51. Take the 109 for example. It is possible to say that Isreal used the 109 up to until the 1960s. Which could be percieved as true. But if you get literal, the 109s used by Isreal were Hispano made 109s with Merlin engines. This example can be used to compare the P-51 in the same light. I am a Luftwaffe guy, but my Mustang friends have spoken volumes on what was considered something of a Super-Mustang after the war. I also get literal when we discuss the use of a plane in how many numbers were actually used. Alot of these 3rd world countries didn't have Mustangs in large numbers, some only a handful, and these were war weary Mustangs, also. And I can't say I have ever seen an example of any of those Mustangs being used in the Vietnam are, or on the psuedo-Middle East of the 1960's, as prescribed in Strike Fighters. The Mustang was used in WWII and Korea, predominantly. After that, most countries found more cost effective, more powerful replacements. Even the Mig-17 didn't see combat with the P-51, or if it did, it was only in a once or twice happenstance, with the probable ending of the Mustang hugging the ground in a race for home.

Thanks Jeff, I think there is alot of very good points from both sides also. Ranger, let me add alittle to your "voting" analogy. We DID vote, with our pocketbooks, by buying this sim, and expecting it to perform as was advertised on the box. Had the box said "Multiplayer does not work as advertised, as does other things in this sim", then we would be buying what was advertised, and would not have any other expectation. But we "voted" (with our money) for a candidate (the sim), and the sim is not doing what it said it would do during it's campaign promises (what was advertised on the box). So, because we voted (money), we have every right to complain. Am I wrong in that analogy?

Denzil, I did not mean to sound like I was putting down modders, I think alot of them do wonderful jobs, even with the limited resources given to them. I love the F-105 mod, because I love the 105 in real life. I also know that the community is not fickle enough, as in the acceptance of the P-51. I think the P-51 mod almost perfectly describes what I am saying. Here is a mod that has no viable FM whatsoever, and even that is admitted by TK as to not having accurate prop FMs. So here is a mod of a plane that isn't close to an acceptable flight model, is not in the historic timeline of what the sim is, nor has any historically accurate enemy to fight. For this mod and others to have viability, they must pass two litmus tests to actually add to the sim. First, it must survive the patches. We have already seen that practically no mod survived the first patch. Are we gonna have to go through complete updates for mods to work, let alone delete our SF files in order to reinstall so the patch can work? This is where the "painted car" similie comes in. Second, the mods have to have some sort of historic viability. We have a P-51, but no arena or theatre, no Bf109 or A6m2 for it to fight. These things may come with time, but they WILL NOT come if the FM for prop driven planes is pounded out. The community is full of verve on this sim, but is also like a kid on Pixie sticks and cans of Coke. They want to move one way, but they don't take the time to see which way to go forward. I repeatedly asked if the first patch would wipe out the mods 3 weeks before the first patch came out. For 3 weeks I got the arrogant answer of just plain "NO!", and this from beta testers and other "insiders". Well, we know how that turned out. And their answers fueled the drive of modders, incorrectly thinking that patches won't screw up their mods. Some mods haven't fully recovered. And now, Lo and Behold, we are finding out little by little that it is mods that are keeping alot of MP problems. Simply put, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, and the brain isn't trying to help. I like this game. I would love this game if MP was fixed. I have no negativaty for any modders, as I don't have to load any mod I don't want. But I hope they think about how their effort gets received, and I don't mean by the community, I mean by TK and 3rd wire. Mods should be like ice cream topping, they shouldn't be the Ice cream. And to me, MP is the bowl holding it all together. Without the bowl, its just a big mess. No negativity, no harsh words directed at anybody. Just want people to know that I shouldn't HAVE to fix MP, I should be playing MP out of the box, and if the product doesn't work, I have a right to complain till it is. Software shouldn't be different from any other product, and until we treat it like it is, we are gonna get things like SF and WWIIonline and Battlecruiser 3000.

So I take it you are not beta testing the game, just a mod. Creating mods for this sim is like painting you car before you take the dents out. You paint it, but have to repaint it after they fix the dents (patches). Let me come across with a radical idea. All these people who are making mods and thinking they are making the sim reach it's potential should be fixing the broken issues before painting the car. Now that is a VERY altruistic view, and I can't really subscribe to it 100%, because I know some of the sim makers are doing it for the love of the game and also due to limited knowledge of the programming structure. But I will say this, with complete conviction, that to accuse people of mindless bitching and whining if they are not working to make the sim "reach it's potential" is just the lamest thing I have heard in a long time. If TK wants to open up the code so that people can knee deep into it to actually fix it, that would be different. Then something COULD be done buy the paying public. But to think that repainting a tank or creating the F-86 is fixing anything, then that is ludicrous. We aren't talking mods. We are talking MP. Fix the MP. Eliminate dissention, satisfy half your fan base.

Ranger, I gave the specific problems and my pc specs in a post at SIMHQ. The post never got a reply from anyone who is either neta testing the patch or from any honchos at Third Wire or TK. If you are beta testting, can you tell us if MP is being worked on?

Gecko, Snapple is my X.O.

My question is WHY do we have to help make SF reach the potential is supposed to have? Wasn't that the idea when they were making it? Did the clerk say, "OK, thats $40, and it isn't going to work as advertised, so you have to learn programming to fix it"? And where did the notion go that if you buy something and it doesn't work, you aren't allowed to complain till you get satisfaction? "I feel like I am taking CRAZY PILLS or something!" Gecko, snapple IS NOT one of the guys that slams the game all the time, so that insinuation is moot. Please do not paint people with the SIMHQ approved brush that if you don't sing the praises of the game, then you are against it, because that is exactly what this sentence is saying: "Now ask yourself "are you one of the folks that want to make things better?" Or are you one of them that feels the need to waste everyones time and slam the game every chance you get?" Contrary to that idea, Snapple IS one of the people that wants things to get better. THATS why he posted his frustration at MP, along with the other people at Hyperlobby who are trying to get MP going. I don't have to meet TK personally to know that this game is unfinished and that MP is not working. Maybe you should reread his post and see that Snapple actually praised TK, and no where said anything about his character. You were quick and on the defensive. I have about 5 years on you in the VFS thing, since the days of 300 baud connections and SIMCGA. I have seen ALOT of sims come and go, and the way SF was released is not impressive at all. Everyone who bought this game with the intention of flying in MP is owed an apology by the company and TK. To you, that may sound harsh, but go ask someone in a retail store what happens when a customer complains about a product that they bought that didn't work. They are treated better, generally get to rant and even then the company tries to satisfy the customer because, and I think Third Wire and alot of people have forgotten: The customer is ALWAYS right. Go fix MP, eliminate dissention, satisfy half your fan base. 3 birds with one stone. <S>

Fan base as in buying public, Dan. And as a person who will be vocal in places where SF multi is supposed to be played. I can't count the number of people I have talked to on Hyperlobby that were so frustrated with no MP that thery were ready to chuck the CD. My response has been and will be to "wait till the second patch comes out to see if that helps". After that, figure they can do as they wish cause it will probably be anywhere from 8 months to a year before another patch will be released, if at all. Fix MP, end the dissention, satisfy half your fan base. Don't you agree, Dan?

I was wondering where the "big" thing came from.....

MP issues are the downfall of this sim. You CANNOT make a sim these days without getting the MP working. TK ignored MP in his first patch, totally alienating half of his fan base. Then all the "remember EAW" posts came out, like we owed him something for EAW, when in truth we were owed a working game cause we paid $40, but that seems to be forgotten. We have not even heard SUGGESTIONS from the company on how to make MP play better, no release mentioning any of the "filechecking" or squat. I am tired of flying against AI. My skills go DOWN because of AI. And now we can't even get a bone thrown to us about what IS being worked on in this patch. Now someone is saying you should only fly your vanilla SF in MP, which defeats the whole purpose of an openly modded sim. Please, SOMEONE fix the MP.

Third one looks the best, most proffesional. Why not make an animated sig? Doesn't take up much more memory, and allows movement, which is more eye catching. I like the third. Got any more?

Dave, I went ahead and d/l'ed it before you posted anyway. I love the Thud, and your add on is no dissappointment at all. It looks great and flies great. I have only one question, and that is is it possible to up the gamma in the cockpit view? Mine is a little dark. other than that, i love it! Thnak you very much for the add on.