What's the verdict on the new patch ?

[Guest IndioBlack]

I haven't seen much discussion here on the new patch - are you all too busy painting planes ?

 

I've noticed some improvements, like the statistics seem to be working properly again, although I haven't flown long enough to be certain it won't go wonky again.

 

I have noticed that the enemy do shoot at you a lot more, and they can hit you, especially when they get you outnumbered, which is a major improvement. I sometimes now have to break off and evade, in order to get a better approach for attack, which was never necessary before. However, it does seem like the manouevring has been toned down from the previous patch, where when you got on their tail, they would dance away all over the place to avoid you. Now they don't seem to do that, unless of course I've become extremely accurate at killing the enemy pilot, and the plane is just continuing on its own steam.

 

One of the problems I did find that clouded a fair assessment, was when the game populated the mission with add-on aircraft.

I was chasing one aircraft and had two magazine changes before I could down him, even though I saw all my shells pinging his fuselage. Then I realised it was an add-on plane that had been beefed up with armour. When I encountered the next native plane, I despatched him with far more ease.

I know it's difficult for add-on planemakers to achieve the same gameplay performance that comes with native planes - I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with their approach to FM - but it would be nice if these aircraft behaved in a similar manner when it comes to using or flying against them in a mission. For instance, some aircraft won't take-off in hard mode; some can't be used in take-off at all because they are so big they instantly crash into each other, so you have to start in the air; and some obviously have different degrees of shoot-down-ability because their armour has been beefed-up.

Now I know the simple answer is don't use add-on planes if you don't like them; but I do like them, and yes I have removed them to get a better appreciation of the basic patched game.

 

Anyway, I'd just really like to know what others think about the latest patch.

[Guest IndioBlack]

Okay, so nobody wants to share their thoughts on the new patch. Well, I've had 110 reads of my last post, so I'll add a few more notes for my readers.

 

I'm definitely sure now that the manouevrability of the enemy AI has been toned down somewhat. This may have something to do with enabling them to shoot a bit more accurately, or it may have been an attempt to cut down on the self-destructive capabilities of over-manouevring AI. I quite liked the aerial chase, so I'm slightly disappointed here.

However, in the other direction, your ability to shoot their wings off and get a definite kill seems to have been taken away. Your most likely scenario now, is that you will shoot the enemy's engine out, the prop will stop, and very often the aircraft will glide down to a perfect landing, whether the pilot is alive or not. I'm assuming that in most of these situations, if I'm right behind the enemy aircraft and am shooting up the engine, then a huge number of my bullets must be passing through the pilot.

You can still shoot bits off the aircraft - I've seen wing tips go, or maybe ailerons, and you can definitely get the tail-plane to fly off, but the regular loss of a wing and the ensuing plummet to the ground that gives you a confirmed kill, seems to be a thing of the past.

 

I'm seeing all this on Hard settings, flying the SE5a, and I feel that the game is moving somewhat closer to the OVER FLANDERS FIELD experience where you can empty a full magazine into an aircraft without getting much of a response from it, other than the propellor seizing up.

So we're getting a little more realism now. But in that case, I think I should be seeing some results of killing the pilot, which I don't. Surely with a dead hand on the stick, (assuming he hasn't slumped forward and pushed the stick into a dive), the aircraft should to start to roll or something, rather than just continuing on its straight path and then slowly gliding to a landing.

 

What does not seem to have been addressed yet is the poor performance of your wingmen. It seems bizarre that your mission can end with you having emptied all your magazines (because aircraft are now harder to kill), and yet when you get your stats, you still have wingmen who haven't fired a shot. Clearly the enemy are shooting and killing now, because I'm getting more reports of wingmen losses. Whether this is because we're usually outnumbered, or they are getting killed in the first pass, is difficult to ascertain.

[Lucas81 0]

Hi,

 

The patch fixed the rudder issue which behaviour was unacceptable for me in the first FE version. Now, i have some much better rudder control and can finally fight with boom n zoom tactics rather than turnfighting. Another good thing which you mentioned is reduced shooting effect. Finally, you can still dogfight, even if you received some hits.

Just a few observations, most linked with basic planes.

The ATI card fixes dont work with my ATI x1600 pro:(, so i still fly without shadows.

[Dagger 21]

I agree that it's not perfect but it is getting better.The add-on planes have their amour points set by their makers so different people will see planes taking more or less damage,depending on the author.

the wingmen and the enemy AI are starting to get better,atleast from the aggression point of view.I actually had one of my wingmen put some holes in me when I was on the tail of a DVII.

To be honest I don't think we'll ever see a dead pilot,if he's dead he just disappears.I would love to see my opponent slumped over,but I have realized that an empty cockpit means I got him,and the landing planes are better than before,although it still does happen.

[Bandy 3]

...The add-on planes have their amour points set by their makers so different people will see planes taking more or less damage,depending on the author.

 

Just flew a mission and got on the tail of a 3rd wire Fok DVII, and filled him with lead. I hate to say it, but I got a head of steam on for this particular AI aircraft, and kept right after him (I know, I know, not a smart thing to do...). Anyways, in my SE5 I got something like 42% hits with the Vickers, and over 50% hits with the Lewis, before I ran outta ammo (hard mode). He just kept juking around. I mean, that was really one kevlar coated Fokker!!!

 

I really like patch 2 despite the continuing issues with my ATI card... I tried to troubleshoot, reloaded FE vanilla (sans patch), and found the handling/flying not as satisfying. The AI is much more active, and tries to draw you into trouble (real AI, or better AI anyways...). The exploding fireball plane syndrome in the original FE really shocked me after the toning down of patch 1 though.

Edited March 11, 2007 by B Bandy RFC

[BUFF 8]

The ATI card fixes dont work with my ATI x1600 pro:(, so i still fly without shadows.

afaik the fixes weren't for shadows but for clipping.

[Guest IndioBlack]

.The add-on planes have their amour points set by their makers so different people will see planes taking more or less damage,depending on the author.

 

Yes that's exactly the situation I was identifying, which I believe has made assessment of the patch difficult. A heavily armoured third-party aircraft, installed after a new patch, could fool one into thinking that the patch has added extra armour on all planes.

 

I had an extraordinary situation last night, which produced contrary results to what I had been getting in my previous missions with the new patch. All five of my wingmen fired at the enemy, with numbers of rounds expended in the hundreds. Highest was about 336. One wingman got a kill, several got hits. All four enemy aircraft were destroyed.

 

There were two things that I had changed since my previous missions with the new patch.

 

1. I had been flying the Vogesen terrain, and switched back to Verdun

2. I had been flying "Heavy"enemy activity, and now switched to "Normal"

 

I doubt if the terrain has any bearing on this improved result, other than providing mountains for AI pilots to encounter, but who knows, there may be other details below the hood that I don't know about.

I think the important factor was the "Normal" enemy activity setting. This seemed to give me a smaller number of enemy aircraft to encounter, and thus my flight was not outnumbered as is the case with the "Heavy" setting. In fact, quite the contrary.

Consequently, one could speculate that my wingmen, not being threatened by greater numbers, were able to go on the offensive, rather than the defensive. Hence they attacked the enemy and expended lots of ammunition.

It is certainly a gratifying result.

 

Regarding the Kevlar-armoured Fokker DVII: I have experienced the same thing against the third-wire Albatros. I got up really close on one aircraft, and emptied a full magazine, and the major visual effect that I was getting was a lot of flashes where my bullets hit the enemy aircraft and presumably bounced off the Kevlar. I mean, the Engine was dead, the pilot should have been dead, but I had a glider in front of me rather than a plummet.

At this point I was gaining on him a little, so I pulled back the throttle and nosed up a bit to slow down. Then, because I was now higher than he was, I nosed down to fire some more at him, and I must have been just at the right angle to get a lucky hit on the wing that appeared to break something off, and he then rolled to one side and started to plummet.

So based on that, I believe there may be some new tactics we have to discover

[Bandy 3]

I think the important factor was the "Normal" enemy activity setting.

 

I would tend to agree with you there, but I'm not sure it has to do with numbers of NME AC. I've almost always flown with "normal" activity rather than "heavy", and found that I'm almost always outnumbered anyways.

 

YET since patch 2 my wingmen are always very active with firing guns (sometimes ridiculously so at great range), and one AI fellow got 2 kills this weekend!!! TWO KILLS!!! I've never seen that before...

 

So BIG for patch 2 despite the minor but still annoying (or is it annoying but still minor?) graphics problems. I'm not worried, it'll get resolved...

[Gr.Viper 131]

I saw a nearly-sniper AI recently. Log read 1 hit - 1 kill

[J18Dread 0]

Has anyone noticed in online play that your opponent's guns keep firing (he sees the same for you) even when he is not firing. They seem to fire until out of ammunition, so when he has another firing opportunity you do not hear his guns - you just die, if he is mrcraig.

 

We have been working on 'beefing-up' the armor to make all planes more durable. The only 'lead sponge' I have noticed is the Dolphin. I have since pared down the wood 'thickness' to 30 for the dolphin (vs. 36 for the others). This makes for extended combat and a more enjoyable, satisfying experience. If you have a chance to fly when I am hosting you will see for yourself.

 

I welcome the non-stock planes even though I may have to modify them to suit my tastes. I look forward to the next patch (stronger AI and matched pairs) and only wish that it would accommodate Jelly's plane switcher so that a re-install (setup) is not necessary, as was with the second patch.

[Guest IndioBlack]

I would tend to agree with you there, but I'm not sure it has to do with numbers of NME AC. I've almost always flown with "normal" activity rather than "heavy", and found that I'm almost always outnumbered anyways.

 

With "Heavy", you are seriously outnumbered. This was fine when you could fire a couple of rounds into an enemy aircraft and its wing would fall off, and when they didn't shoot back; but now it's not so easy. With "Normal" I' thought the numbers were fairly equal, but you are right I did get a 2 vs 4 single mission, and for once, I did get shot down. I got one of theirs after pumping a magazine-full into it, whilst the other three got my wingman. Then I spent a serious amount of time trying to pick another of theirs off, whilst the other two dogged me savagely. Eventually, I think it was the AAA that got me as I extended out to evade them, before gaining height and returning to the fray: They were about 5 miles away and my stern suddenly blew off.

I then re-flew the mission but added two more aircraft on my side, and with even numbers we shot them all down. And when I say "we", I do mean one of my wingmen got a kill.

 

So my general impression is that this second patch has addressed all the problems that I felt the AI had in combat performance. It's now much more realistic, in that you don't get to be a triple ace in one mission; your wingmen know how to use their guns; and the enemy know how to fight and shoot you. So you do go up there with a certain amount of trepidation, knowing that it's not a piece-of-cake anymore, and you could be shot down.

The only thing that I don't like is the way the aircraft armour has been beefed up: I think that's gone a little too far. TK seems to have followed Bortdafarm's lead here. But that's just a personal impression, and I suppose I can always turn down the difficulty, even though I probably won't.

 

I hope that what has been accomplished here with the AI in FE could be transferred to the rest of the SF series, so that when you fire a sparrow at an enemy MiG, and he blows up, his wingmen might just react, rather than continuing to fly in formation, blissfully unaware that you are there.

[DaSpungie 1]

one thing i have noticed

ai coops against you

i was flying a mystere vs some cougars

and as i would get on the tail of one his team mate was lining up on me

this went on for quite awhile

even after shooting down 5 other cougars they did not go bing and fly straight home

if i chanced them they would evade and team up on me again

the break off and head home

so be carefull out there they will get you you if you fly fast and loose

[Guest IndioBlack]

one thing i have noticed

ai coops against you

i was flying a mystere vs some cougars

and as i would get on the tail of one his team mate was lining up on me

this went on for quite awhile

even after shooting down 5 other cougars they did not go bing and fly straight home

if i chanced them they would evade and team up on me again

the break off and head home

so be carefull out there they will get you you if you fly fast and loose

 

Yes you're right, they do gang up on you. And they can be difficult to shake off.

 

Everything in this new patch appears to have pushed the AI behaviour to be more aggressive, more successful, and more realistic. That's why I can't understand the general silence that has accompanied the patch. With such a massive improvement in AI, I thought people would be throwing their hats in the air and cheering.

[JediMaster 451]

Perhaps they're too busy flying to post about it?

[SRT 0]

My hat is in the air! I like the changes with the 2nd patch a lot. I fly normal, and for me, that is enough. Way to go TW.

[Guest IndioBlack]

Perhaps they're too busy flying to post about it?

 

Or too busy painting aircraft. Yes, that's what crossed my mind.

 

However, I didn't think that was how things worked: From my experience of reading movie boards, what usually happens is that someone gets hold of a rare movie, and then immediately posts about having got it. So everyone says "brilliant", you lucky sucker" etc, and then asks "what's the quality like?". At this point, the original poster then has to admit that they haven't had time to watch it yet.

 

So maybe we have a different culture here that I've failed to recognise: When the game first came out, it didn't meet everyone's expectations. So there was a lot of board discussion about what it hadn't got and what it ought to have, because people didn't spend much time playing it.

Now the second patch is out, one might assume that it's achieved what everyone wanted, so perhaps you're right: Everyone's too busy enjoying the flying to talk about it.

 

I just needed to discuss it, because I couldn't believe how different the game had now become. Especially after TK had written about how really difficult it was to get AI to work. He seemed to be throwing his hands up and saying "this is as far as it goes."

When I first got the game, it was so arcade-like that I was sure I had a different version to everyone else. Now it's been patched properly, it has become so much of a Combat Simulator, that I still can't believe that I have the same version as everyone else.

I just needed a little reassuring.

[JediMaster 451]

I think his post was partially to deflate expectations (which are always too high) and partially to surprise when it did come out.

There are 2 ways to do a game. You can make MP the focus and let the AI be morons ("This game is primarily about online play so we didn't focus on the AI"--see the BF games among others) or you skip much in MP and make SP the focus. TK's games are all about the SP with only a simple MP component, so he knows the AI is what you're flying with and against all the time.

While he's limited in how much he can do in the time he has, he knows it's important to the game.

[Firecage 1]

So far im pretty impressed with TK and thrid wires efforts. My biggest problem is I am trying to make it a more realistic flight sim and it wasn't designed to be that. TK has said it was a wwi game to go around and blow stuff up 8) which is always fun.

 

 

I do however think its a great game and I am always looking forward to a new patch or planes as they release.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Heh.. I just tried Wings of Honour: Battles of Red Baron. Believe me, in comparison to that FE is a really hardcore sim. In WoH, the planes collide head to head and keep bumping into each other mid-air like toy cars. There's no such thing as lift. And you have machine gun, guided missiles AND bombs. Even on Eindecker.

[Firecage 1]

Heh.. I just tried Wings of Honour: Battles of Red Baron. Believe me, in comparison to that FE is a really hardcore sim. In WoH, the planes collide head to head and keep bumping into each other mid-air like toy cars. There's no such thing as lift. And you have machine gun, guided missiles AND bombs. Even on Eindecker.

 

LOL yea the WWI sims seem to run the entire gambit.... DOA which is kinda interesting but I hate their damage models and last I looked that fake looking 8bit smoke when somethings hit. Oh yea and everything explodes like a SAM rocket hit.

 

Then you have the WoH and others that have an SE5 doing unlimited vertial climb at 90 deg. Im sure theres a market somewhere for all.

 

I think Red Baron 3D was one of the great WWI sims but all of us from that era know it wasn't finished well and just kinda left unfinished. Thank god the community kept it alive and worked on the rest that Sierra just didnt care to address. It was close to mass online play and at least people could do a hack check on their servers for versions and such to keep it as equal as possible. I think the death of 3dfx didnt help RB3d much either, its a horrid scene in direct draw and wrappers just suck.

 

I think TKs game is the 1st one since then that really drew my interest, and Im I am a real WWI fan just not seeing much from any other companies that I liked. I have some real hope for TKs game and the only thing I see in the way is doing anykind of online play where there is a system in place to check for equal FM in all planes and such. This is always a problem in open code games. And, as in real life, I am sad to say that there will always be a few who will cheat for the ego boost.

 

I think the FMs needs to have a way to balance so it will scale from ez to normal to hard and fly well in all three. And see the AI fly them well in all three. The AI gunnery issue Im guessing is a pain in the backside, how do you tell an AI pilot when to lead by how much at how fast at what angle........ whew thank god its his problem

 

I have been trying to just keep things upbeat and not hound TK and his huge staff <snicker> with too many too do lists. I would hate to have his email inbox to read every day.

 

I hope we see this game moving forward for a long time to come.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Firecage