Chaffs/flares for Mig-21/23 serries?

[kukulino]

Hi pilots

So, be stoical with my no excellent english, please :yes:

OK, we have modelled many Mig-21/23 versions. I have read many topics about good Mig targets for F-15/16 etc

It is time, to bring old good Migs close to history.

I have informations about Mig-21F/PF/PFM/MF series that there were no chaffs/flares dispensers monted on fuleges. It means, there were no internal dispensers.

But chaffs/flares dispensers really exist.

 

1. Mig-21R ---- recon pod is moddeled in weapons pack. (but R version is not modelled). I have info, that this Mig-21 recon pod was equip with two ASO-2I dispenser with 32 chaffs (each). If this is true, is it possible to add chaffs into recon pod?

Mig-21R fuselage is similar to Mig-12MF (not the same). It is based on Mig-21PFM (we can use the same cocpit like PFM). No gun, five pylons. FM is similar to PFM (the same engine).

Look HERE! for some R version photos.

 

2. Mig-21M (M variant A, in Czechoslovakia Mig-21MA) ------ Not modelled. Based on Mig-21R. Fuselage similar to MF version. Internal gun Gsh-23. Engine R-11F2S-300, five pylons. Cocpit closer to MF version.

No internal chaffs/flares dispensers. Later updated on MF version.

Some of MAs were mounted with SPS-141E ECM container with ASO-2I-E7P Chaffs/flares dispensers on the centerline pylons. This container is not moddeled, Ithink.

Look HERE! for MA version photos. SPS-141 are on the ground. Or look HERE!

for SPS-141 photos, control panel on the last photo.

SPS-141 was designed for flight, it means only one plane in the flight was mounted with SPS-141.

 

3. Mig-21MF ---- no every aircraft was mounted with SPS-141.

 

There is idea about Czechoslovak campaign only, in my head (not in my head only). This is the reason to choose this vesions migs. We have more ideas about campaigns for czechoslovaks in the our comunnity, and we are working on it. As start, it looks like edit for existing campaigns.

 

Short Mig-21 series history service in Czechoslovak and then in Czech republic and in Slovak republic is HERE! Page is in czech language, but you can see Mig-21F/PF/PFM/R/MA/MF/MFN photos there.

 

I have not got many info about Mig-23 versions (we had BN,MF and ML versions in Czechoslovak air force)

 

To FastCargo:

You are working on missiles. So what about SPS-141 container?

 

So pilots, what do you mean about improve Mig chances to survive dogfight? I hate F-15/16 with AIM-9Ls

Edited December 8, 2007 by kukulino

[JediMaster]

I don't recall ever hearing about any countermeasures on any Fishbed variants myself. I do know that some Floggers had launchers scabbed onto the rear fuselage, though, especially ones that were in Afghanistan.

[+ghostrider883]

2. Mig-21M (M variant A, in Czechoslovakia Mig-21MA) ------ Not modelled. Based on Mig-21R. Fuselage similar to MF version. Internal gun Gsh-23. Engine R-11F2S-300, five pylons. Cocpit closer to MF version.

No internal chaffs/flares dispensers. Later updated on MF version.

 

The MiG-21M was license manufactured in large numbers in India by HAL and was designated as the Type 96 Fishbed by the IAF. howling's MiG pack has the MiG-21M modelled with correct engine parameters, it was otherwise similar to the MiG-21MF.

And yes, none of the Indian Fishbeds(F,PF,FL,M,MF,bis) had chaff/flare dispensers. Conformal CM dispensers are there on upgraded Indian MiG-21 Bisons.

Edited October 26, 2007 by ghostrider883

[kukulino]

The MiG-21M was license manufactured in large numbers in India by HAL and was designated as the Type 96 Fishbed by the IAF. howling's MiG pack has the MiG-21M modelled with correct engine parameters, it was otherwise similar to the MiG-21MF.

And yes, none of the Indian Fishbeds(F,PF,FL,M,MF,bis) had chaff/flare dispensers. Conformal CM dispensers are there on upgraded Indian MiG-21 Bisons.

WOW,WOW,WOW!!! THANX man I am looking for download :yes:

 

Edit: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autom...p;showfile=1354 ---- is this M version pack?

And there is Wrenchs update. Do I need both?

Edited October 26, 2007 by kukulino

[FLT]

i searched tht web for an answer and i´ve found one! :yes:

There is only one version of the MIG-21 family with ECMs ín the fuselage. The chinese-build F-7P. Other versions of the MIG-21 can carry pods like the SPS-141.

 

ECMs in the F-7P

 

Cockpit of the F-7P (notice the new Head Up Display)

 

SPS-141 Pod

 

Recon Pod Type R

 

For more informations about the whole MIG-21 family take a look at this MIG-21 Webseite

[kukulino]

i searched tht web for an answer and i´ve found one! :yes:

There is only one version of the MIG-21 family with ECMs ín the fuselage. The chinese-build F-7P. Other versions of the MIG-21 can carry pods like the SPS-141.

 

ECMs in the F-7P

 

Cockpit of the F-7P (notice the new Head Up Display)

 

SPS-141 Pod

 

Recon Pod Type R

 

For more informations about the whole MIG-21 family take a look at this MIG-21 Webseite

Thanx for photos and link :yes:

Your are right in general. We have F-7P modelled by howling1. It is in download section. And, yes, model is equiped with dispenser. This version was not in use by Czechoslovak air force. There was Mig-21F-13 in license build in Czechoslovakia.

Edited October 26, 2007 by kukulino

[+ghostrider883]

Edit: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autom...p;showfile=1354 ---- is this M version pack?

 

Yup, that's the one. Though howling1 was talking about uypdating it to latest patch standards. Its is sad to not have him around the forums anymore :(

[kukulino]

I don't recall ever hearing about any countermeasures on any Fishbed variants myself. I do know that some Floggers had launchers scabbed onto the rear fuselage, though, especially ones that were in Afghanistan.

I have info from exczechoslovak fishbed pilot. There are many photos of coumtermeasure containers in my first post (follow links). I need to know, how many flares or chaffs were in that containers. Second question is, if it is possible to add chaffs and flares into mig-21 recon pod. I mean, when I drop this container, flares and chaffs and ecm is not funkcional, because it is dropped.

Third question, which modder can do SPS-141? I hope FastCargo

About Floggers: I know about six flares on 23MF or ML version. I need more search. I found photo ---- http://backfiretu-22m.tripod.com/id11.html scroll down on little photo Mig-23 with flares.

 

And very sweet information: L-39 is equiped wit four flares!!!!!!!!!! :yes:

 

 

It is too easy to shot down Mig-21/23 series with AIM-9L (or better). One shot one kill. Similar with modern versions AIM-7. So, if there is chanse to have better defense for Migs, let's go to do it!

 

If I want to fly Mig-21 in edited scrappers Red swarm, for example, there is no chance/little chance to survive.

And if we can improve exist Mig-21s to Mig-21R with modified recon pod, there is another good chance for everyone to try something new --- recon mission in special R variant. Too exciting for every mig fan!!!

Edited October 26, 2007 by kukulino

[+Crusader]

MIG-23 and -27 can be fitted with two KDS-23 dispensers ( 6 cartridges each) on the wing shoulders, firing upwards. Usage depends on country, service years etc. Some versions ( mostly the -23BN , the -27 series and the -23MLD could be fitted with an additional KDS dispenser inthe centerline pylon.

The -23MLD had two the long, BVP-50-60 dispensers mounted on the top of the fuselage.

 

MiG-21 series, some had a flare dispenser ( 3 cartridges ) IIRC... mounted in the tail fin base, but those were for signalling only, they were ineffective for decoying IR missiles.

[Wrench]

There's been an EW pod for the Fishbeds in the weapons pak for over 2 year now...look for item "RecPodD"

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[+Dave]

Yup, that's the one. Though howling1 was talking about updating it to latest patch standards. Its is sad to not have him around the forums anymore :(

 

I do too, he has been very ill. I see him lurking though. Would be good to hear from him again.

[kukulino]

There's been an EW pod for the Fishbeds in the weapons pak for over 2 year now...look for item "RecPodD"

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

Hi Wrench.

Yes, you are right. I saw it in the weapondata. But it won't show up in loadout screen.

 

[WeaponData886]

TypeName=RecPod D --------------------I think this need edit to RecPod_D

FullName=Type D EW Pod

ModelName=RecPod_MiG21 -------------- the same lod file like MiG-21 Recon Pod

Mass=150.000000

Diameter=0.500000

Length=1.000000

AttachmentType=SOVIET,YUGOSLAVIA

NationName=SOVIET

StartYear=1965

EndYear=1990

Availability=1

BaseQuantity=24

Exported=TRUE

ExportStartYear=1970

ExportEndYear=1982

ExportAvailability=0

WeaponDataType=4

StoreType=0

JammerStrength=0.000000

 

I will try this too.

 

P.S.: I don't know what happend with howling1. And I don't know ho is it in the fact. I know his nick and his great work for Mig Fan comunity

So I believe that he will be OK

[+Crusader]

make sure that your pylon has the correct weapon class names:

 

AllowedWeaponClass=.......,RCN,EP

 

 

RCN = for Recon Pods

EP = Electronic Pods, thats for Jammers and Dispensers

[kukulino]

make sure that your pylon has the correct weapon class names:

 

AllowedWeaponClass=.......,RCN,EP

RCN = for Recon Pods

EP = Electronic Pods, thats for Jammers and Dispensers

THANX. It is works right now

[kukulino]

Nice photos of SM SPS-141 with ASO-2I-E7P dispenser (chaffs an flares, but dispenser we can't see)

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/1214...OV-Kontejner-SM

 

Loaded on Mig-21MF. Mig is placed in the museum.

Edited December 8, 2007 by kukulino

[Wrench]

Right now, it has "0" strength as a jammer, so that needs some adjusting. Hmmm....one wonders if you couldn't double the pod (and the mounting hardpoint)....

 

Have another station EXACTLY on the same spot, make a copy of the D pod, change it to a CM dispenser, and then add the necessary flaff and chares, and mount it directly OVER the jammer pod. Give it a very light weight (10 or 15 kgs). It would then be hidden on top of itself, and you get the added bonus of having the jammer AND disposables all at the same place

 

Editing the data and loadout inis is a nothing job...just adding a hardpoint in the same place as the original.

 

20 minutes, maybe a half hours worth of work!!!

 

Now, the historicality (real life usage), well....that's another matter!!!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

ps: I just did a whole bunch of fixes for the Indaian Fishbeds...but don't remember if I put the dispensers on. You all go check the Bison and let me know!!

[vrkuboy]

coontrol panel sps 141

[vrkuboy]

SPS 141 exist in two version 1. under wing and 2. under fuselage. its similar but not same!!!!

[kukulino]

I am trying to get Mig-21MA from MF and type 96 versions.

I am using MIG-21MF.LOD from type 96B version. But look at this

 

ghostrider, is this lod the same like original MF.LOD from WOE?

 

This is with WOE original MF.LOD

 

It is not big prob to move numbers and insignias, and pilot to right position, but what happend with LOD files?

I have new folder Mig-21MA created with MF skin, type 96 files renamed to Mig-21MA, MF.LOD from type 96 package. Wrenchs update for type 96 is not installed.

 

The way to improve this prob is to use stock MF.LOD and move numbers and insignias and pilot to right positions, I think.

 

Numbers ----MontyCZ L-29

Skin gerald14

Edited October 27, 2007 by kukulino

[Wrench]

I take you haven't read my "Notes on Fishbeds" in the Loadout Fixes thread?????

 

You'll probably want to get the Indian AF Fishbed fixes from the downloads section here, read THOSE notes...and make the necessary 'adjustments'

 

Looks like mix-matched lods there m'boy, along with wanked-out shadow too.

 

Remember, NOTHING from howling1 original pak will work right off....most of them are already fixed, and uploaded here.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[kukulino]

I take you haven't read my "Notes on Fishbeds" in the Loadout Fixes thread?????

 

You'll probably want to get the Indian AF Fishbed fixes from the downloads section here, read THOSE notes...and make the necessary 'adjustments'

 

Looks like mix-matched lods there m'boy, along with wanked-out shadow too.

 

Remember, NOTHING from howling1 original pak will work right off....most of them are already fixed, and uploaded here.

 

Wrench

kevin stein

That is right. I haven't read indians Fishbeds notes in loadout fixes topic. I have not skill with this, I have some skill with SOVIET loadout fixies. OK, I am going to find Indian AF Fishbed fixes.

Edited October 27, 2007 by kukulino

[kukulino]

THANX Wrench! Everything works right now

[Wrench]

You're very welcome, my friend!!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

ps: your english is much better than my czech...of which I have none!!!

[kukulino]

OK, we have:

1. Mig-21MA (MF model, type 96 FM, MF cocpit, SM avionics)

2. Recon pod for Mig-21 with cameras

3. ECM pod for Mig-21 (no flares/chaffs)

 

We need (for czechoslovak campaign):

1. Mig-21R (PFM pit, no internal guns, PFM? or type 96 FM)

2. Electronic recon container "R" with ECM and ASO-2I dispenser (model recon pod Mig-21, need add 2x32 chaffs/flares)

3. Classic recon pod for Mig-21 with cameras and with ASO-2I ---- Recon container "D"

4. SM SPS-141 ECM pod with ASO-2I-E7P chaffs/flares dispenser (not modeled, and I have no drawning for this time)

 

The best way are new models for MA and R versions. I am not modder, so the best way for me is improvisation.

1. no big prob to make basic ini changes fo R version

2. no big prob to add 2x32 faffs/chlares into rec pod Mig-21 and rename it to Recon container "R"

3. no way to have cameras with dispenser in one container.

------a) Wrenchs note: add next pylon with recon pod with faffs/chlares on the same place like centerline station

------b) or no cameras, just faffs/chlares dispenser (have cameras some funcions in the original model? Are they funcional?)

4. no way for me to get SM SPS-141 ECM pod with ASO-2I-E7P chaffs/flares dispenser (for modders too, we have no drawning)

Edited December 8, 2007 by kukulino

[ArturR]

I love MiG/Su fighters too. I spend many times in Woe to take out Western fighters ;-) I have few questions.

How add missile rails (like apu-23?) to MiG-23 pylons? This is old MiG-23mf model from Mirage Factory.

I take him because stock MiG-23 from Thirdwire have some bugs.

Second - Are there any properly fuel tanks for this MiG type. MiG-23 (and 27 too) carry 800litres fuel tank in center pylon and another 800litres tanks (another model) under wing pylons. Stock weapons and weapons pack does'nt have it. Can someone model this tanks?