For the Flanker fans

[MigBuster 2,861]

The A-10 is a perfect example. As much as Viper pilots want to say they do CAS great, realistically they can't do it the way Hogs can.

 

Ans - No but depends on the environment - An A-10 would be the choice in an area with air superiority and no advanced low level SAM's.

 

Can the Hornet pull the same duty as an EA-6B? I've read varying opinions

 

Ans - Yes its called the EA-18G and will be in service from 2009 - The EA-6B has been in service since 1971 and is probably not fast enough to keep up with the other Hornets anyway.

 

The F-15 is almost 40. The Tomcat is out to pasture. The F-16 is where the F-5 was in 1980. Tapped out. The F/A-18 has a new lease but till when? 2020? What's that...50 years from beginning of active service?

 

Ans - The F/A18 came in 1983 - so will be ~37 - the super hornets came in in 1999 so will be 21 :)

 

 

Too put it all in perspective, something to think about, the Spitfire design will be 100 years old within the FIRST half of this century! Not too long after the P-51. By 2063 the F-4 will be 100 years old (I'll be in my 90's).

 

Ans - You have to look at these things relatively - the Spitfire was made obsolete by the Jet engine - and since then we have had improved Jet engines and a relization that Mach 2 is an adequate top speed - so old jets can still be seen to do the job. Then of course there is the reluctance to spend much on develoment if there arn't that many perceived threats to your country.

 

 

Will countries be operating Phantoms in 2020? So, time must march on and old horses do eventually get put down and new designs and innovations take their place. All Except the B-52 (the only fossilized active duty combat aircraft).

 

Ans - The Germans are using their ICE F-4Fs till 2012 so I guess their could be some around still in 2020 Fatigue permitting! Air combat has changed to the point where a good radar and missiles mean that an F-4 is still effective (its still fast enough!)

 

As to the original post: couldn't the Russians gotten enough info on Tomcats from the Iranians?

 

Ans - I dont think they did get a Tomcat and that photo has been photoshopped - as above

Edited December 28, 2007 by CoolHand29

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Ans - I dont think they did get a Tomcat and that photo has been photoshopped - as above

 

That's not necessarily so. After the overthrow of the Shah, a pair of Tomcats were supposedly shipped off to the USSR along with a consignment of parts, a few remaining relevant maintenance crew and several Aim-54A Phoenix missiles. I'm not sure if this was 1980 or 1981, I'll look into it, but it coincides with when the Phoenix was treated as being compromised.

[MigBuster 2,861]

That's not necessarily so. After the overthrow of the Shah, a pair of Tomcats were supposedly shipped off to the USSR along with a consignment of parts, a few remaining relevant maintenance crew and several Aim-54A Phoenix missiles. I'm not sure if this was 1980 or 1981, I'll look into it, but it coincides with when the Phoenix was treated as being compromised.

 

Well yes its possible - though after seeing lot of discussions nobody seems to really know.

[sparkomatic 7]

- no real surprise, after all the US gained intel from Russian-allied nations even during the height of the Cold War...given how sweet the Russians are to Iran, no wonder how much has been exchanged between them

[Buzzard 72 0]

Ans - No but depends on the environment - An A-10 would be the choice in an area with air superiority and no advanced low level SAM's.

 

Ans - Yes its called the EA-18G and will be in service from 2009 - The EA-6B has been in service since 1971 and is probably not fast enough to keep up with the other Hornets anyway.

 

Ans - The F/A18 came in 1983 - so will be ~37 - the super hornets came in in 1999 so will be 21 :)

 

Ans - You have to look at these things relatively - the Spitfire was made obsolete by the Jet engine - and since then we have had improved Jet engines and a relization that Mach 2 is an adequate top speed - so old jets can still be seen to do the job. Then of course there is the reluctance to spend much on develoment if there arn't that many perceived threats to your country.

 

Ans - The Germans are using their ICE F-4Fs till 2012 so I guess their could be some around still in 2020 Fatigue permitting! Air combat has changed to the point where a good radar and missiles mean that an F-4 is still effective (its still fast enough!)

 

Ans - I dont think they did get a Tomcat and that photo has been photoshopped - as above

 

With all do respect, what you say about A-10's is exactly opposite of what my cousin says about their operations (he is a Hog pilot BTW). As I pointed out above, the A-10 is CAS par-excellence(obviously). With or without CAP or escort. Still, obviously having an escort or CAP is BETTER but not absolutely neccessary for Hogs. In addition, Hogs can engage mobile SAM's and Man-portables much easier than Eagles, Vipers, or Hornets. Also engaging armor or any other ground mobile contingent. We are given a false image of the capability of JDAMS as well as laser guided ordnance asnd the versatility of these weapons and the A/C that carry them on a regular basis. Hogs will be carrying JDAMS soon.

 

Another consideration is range and endurance over the AO. Vipers are famous for there short legs and their truly limited ordnance carrying capability (originally conceived as a short range defensive response interceptor) not a multi-role F/A aircraft (as where the F-4 proved to be very capable in both arenas and had the legs to do it in a big AO).

 

Hogs can carry ECM, are already equipped with mass countermeasures. Low level SAMS are already calculated into ops. During an engagement a missile crew lives between the world of reluctance and neccesity. They have to engage, but if they do they are going to die, whether or not they hit their target. Being a SAM operator is a world of deadly dichotomy. Stay hidden and live...engage and most assuredly die.

 

Still, the Hog is getting old as well. It will need to be retired. As will F-4's (regardless of upgrades and new weapons). Phantoms cannot compete with any of the post 80's fighters that have been developed. they may be fast and can engage BVR but they start running out of options against Mig-29's and later Soviet Bloc A/C. Essentially, I see it this way: the F-22 will be a purely airsuperiority aircraft(hopefully) though using JDAMS isn't out of the possibility. The F-35 replaces the Viper, Harrier, and the Hornet, though I am curious what it's ground ordnance delivery capability will be. That leaves one last unfilled, much needed category...CAS/SANDY.

 

While the Hog platform is great, I can see the need for something faster than the Hog. The Frogfoot (which is ostensibly based on the YA-9 platform) is the oppossing mentality of CAS operations. Hopefully, the future will hold a CAS plane that has redundancy, durability, range, payload and SPEED.

 

I'm aware of the Hornet crossover to replace tha EA-6B (a plane who's sunset has come and gone). Still, will the Hornet have the same capabilty of ECM interdiction that the Prowler did? There are plenty who say no. That the Hornet just doesn't have the room (structurally). This also means more automation which is a good/bad alternative for that air op. Also original block Hornets will be 47 years old in 2020.

 

A/C development and aquisition is going to happen. The Russians certainly aren't blanching at it nor are the Chinese (the two real primary threats to the non-communist West).

[MigBuster 2,861]

With all do respect, what you say about A-10's is exactly opposite of what my cousin says about their operations (he is a Hog pilot BTW). As I pointed out above, the A-10 is CAS par-excellence(obviously). With or without CAP or escort. Still, obviously having an escort or CAP is BETTER but not absolutely neccessary for Hogs. In addition, Hogs can engage mobile SAM's and Man-portables much easier than Eagles, Vipers, or Hornets. Also engaging armor or any other ground mobile contingent. We are given a false image of the capability of JDAMS as well as laser guided ordnance asnd the versatility of these weapons and the A/C that carry them on a regular basis. Hogs will be carrying JDAMS soon.

 

- The A-10 was due to be scrapped due to its questionable survivablity against modern air defences and was probably saved by the first Gulf War in which it played a big part. Obviously your cousin knows what he is doing - but he knows that the A-10 is only viable in a low threat environment as ive stated above. Im sure your cousin would like to explain to us how he intends to evade a modern fighter with look down shoot down radar and missiles that cant be spoofed flying at a very slow speed, because the A-10 is a clay pidgeon against any true fighter with modern missiles and im afraid flying at low level is no longer good enough in most respects.

 

The A-10 was proven to be very robust at surviving manpad hits from older missile types during the first gulf war and I have read many of the pilot accounts. Unfortunately you cant engage a manpad from the air because you only know its there once you see it or it hits you. In fact some of the pilot accounts of the ones hit confirm that they only knew about it when they were actually hit!

 

I have to question whether current IR countermeasures are any use at all against Modern IR SAMs! I would certainly expect most flares to be useless (after seeing recent AIM-9x firing tests ).

As for jammers You also have to question what use they are against an active missile with HOJ that guides using the jamming from the actual jammer! - one the enemy radar burns through the jamming the jammers like a homing beacon :)

The A-10C im sure will change a few things when it comes into service and should have better warning systems - however beating a missile using kinematics is a lot less likely with the A-10s hopeless speed!!

 

 

Another consideration is range and endurance over the AO. Vipers are famous for there short legs and their truly limited ordnance carrying capability (originally conceived as a short range defensive response interceptor) not a multi-role F/A aircraft (as where the F-4 proved to be very capable in both arenas and had the legs to do it in a big AO).

 

- Yep true - but any 4th Gen aircraft would only be used now once the air defence system had been taken out by better 5th Gen aircraft in a modern AA threat environment.

 

 

Hogs can carry ECM, are already equipped with mass countermeasures. Low level SAMS are already calculated into ops. During an engagement a missile crew lives between the world of reluctance and neccesity. They have to engage, but if they do they are going to die, whether or not they hit their target. Being a SAM operator is a world of deadly dichotomy. Stay hidden and live...engage and most assuredly die.

 

If you have a SEAD escort then they can certainly take out a radar that starts emitting - may be too late to save the poor A-10 though if the SAM is launched from another networked SAM site in a different location to where the radar is emitting from and is an active modern SAM - or it is launched optically. In any case the countermeasures (baring towed decoys) may actually again be useless.

 

 

As will F-4's (regardless of upgrades and new weapons). Phantoms cannot compete with any of the post 80's fighters that have been developed. they may be fast and can engage BVR but they start running out of options against Mig-29's and later Soviet Bloc A/C.

 

- supposing the F-4 has modern systems - with modern missiles the chances of the two merging are pretty remote - but if that were to happen the Mig would have a manouverabilty advantage - though if they both have HMS and modern heaters they may just kill each other!

 

 

 

I'm aware of the Hornet crossover to replace tha EA-6B (a plane who's sunset has come and gone). Still, will the Hornet have the same capabilty of ECM interdiction that the Prowler did? There are plenty who say no. That the Hornet just doesn't have the room (structurally).

 

- Guess that remains to be seen

 

This also means more automation which is a good/bad alternative for that air op. Also original block Hornets will be 47 years old in 2020.

 

- Did the original block Hornets come into service in 1973 then??

Edited December 30, 2007 by CoolHand29

[Buzzard 72 0]

oops I suck at math. If I get a chance, I'll ask him to clarify what he meant. There are many things that he just can't discuss as far as "just exactly what tactics and systems are employed" in a modern context.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Buzzard 72

[JediMaster 451]

The F-22 will be using JDAMs. That's why the F-117s are being retired and will be gone by the end of this year.

[TX3RN0BILL 3]

The Nighthawks are going to be retired? There goes the last of the "century" aircraft... (unless you decide to call the Phantom F-110 - and of course the RAAF F-111s) - If there ever was an aircraft in U.S. inventory by the end of the 20th century that was uglier than the Warthog, then it must've been the Nighthawk...

Edited January 2, 2008 by TX3RN0BILL

[JediMaster 451]

It was the epitome of "function over form"!

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

It was the epitome of "function over form"!

 

I still think the X-32 would have been able to drop ice into your scotch from 10 000m given half a chance. Something that ugly had to be freakin' good...