F15 vs F14 problem!

[Blasto 0]

No I was usin also the rudder. Please believe me that the f15 turn too slow and is to slower also in acceleration and speed. We have tested it for 2 hours yesrstday.

The problem isn't the tomcat but the eagle and the strike eagle i think.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Blasto

[+Brain32 265]

OK you didn't really answer my question but...

Anyway, I never tried against human opponent online, but I think anybody would loose an WW1 style turning fight against F-14 since F-14 is a better turner at low speed in game.

Actually a real F-16 pilot told me that once he and his C.O. went on a mock up fight with one F-14 and that F-14 always denied them of the angle pulling high AoA. So I guess F-14 was pretty amazing machine at low speed IRL too...

 

As for the in-game F-15C I can tell you that it likes to be manouvered at high speeds, 800kmh seems to be a sweet spot while below 500kmh(all IAS) I didn't like the way thing were going.

Also it hates to be pulled above maximum AoA(who would tell huh? ) and will loose speed rapidly. Thus if you try to pull an angle on a manouvering TomCat you will most probably go over max AoA and loose a s**tload of speed, TomCat will circle around and shoot you like a clay pigeon..that's what is happening right?

 

Now like I said I never tried against human, BUT I would try to keep my energy/speed high(personally I would try to keep it at 800kmh IAS+) not to go down in "TomCat territory"(below 500kmh IAS) and use 2vs2 tactics, this should provide far more options. Do not let the fight go into two separate 1vs1's, both of you go for one of them, try to separate them and destroy one by one.

[Silverbolt 104]

You can talk how much you want but the real life is another thing.

Tomcat = great interceptor .

F14 is a legend like f4 but this doesn't mean that an f4 can beat the eagle in dogfight and the same for the f14.

 

F-15 is a Terrible Dogfighter!-what i can remember the German's MiG-29s put the Tomcats to run in a exercice!

F-14 is too(but i love the big cat!)

 

the sucess if Eagle is never join in a Dogfight beware 300knts!

the Fulcrums and Flankers can easy eat the Eagles in Dogfights!(and may the floggers...)

the syrians revogue one Eagle Kill in beeka valey.

 

what we have to understand is: both were concepted as interceptors at high altitude,both were concepted to intercept soviet bombers at high altitude! never join in a Dogfight....

So...F-14 and F-15 Aren't super maneuverable.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Silverbolt

[HrntFixr 4]

BTW.... Super Hornets are gays too

 

This is the only warning you get! Don't even start that old tired flame war!

Next one gets you on the bench for a few weeks!

[+Crusader 2,101]

no eagle was killed over bekaa valley.. only one damaged by a missile which was fired by a mig-21 which popped out and sneaked up on the eagles 6 o'clock.. there wasnt a dogfight.

 

re eagle vs tomcat performace in the game :

both FMs are 2 to 3 years old, and not up to date with the latest changes and tweaks of the last couple of patches.

the FM of the strike eagles is the oldest ( IIRC)

the tomcat FM was made by column5 and is very accurate despite its age since he had excellent resources ( but not tweaked for the latest patch ).

[+Typhoid 231]

Tomcats being shot?!!

 

SACRILEGE!! BLASPHEMY!!!!

 

 

 

I was on duty with the 6th Fleet staff when a report came in from our carrier at the time from a USAF vs USN air exercise. The Tomcat got a Phantom........

 

 

unfortuneately the sidewinder worked. fortuneately so did the ejection seats, parachutes, beacons, rafts, rescue lifts on the helicopters......... bad day at work.......

 

 

so far as the sim goes I think the debate is focused on the turn rates of the F-15s and F-14s. Hard to know if these are precisely accurate but much will depend on what speed the aircraft are doing when they turn. In slow speed knife fights the Tomcat can, in fact, turn inside of the F-15 (so I'm told) and is no slouch at knife-fighting. When it does that of course, it looses energy FAST so they will unload, get out and re-engage with higher speed. The corner speed is different in both so if they are both in a turning fight at about the same speed, one or the other will have a decided advantage depending on what that speed is.

 

comment was made above that both the Eagle and Tomcat were bad fighters in close. Not true. They both are superb. They both have advantages and disadvantages in various flight regimes and both can beat the other in a close fight depending on how the pilots handle the aircraft.

 

in Eagle vs Tomcat exercises the ROE used for training will drive the fight and the results. the Phoenix of course was always scripted out because the fight would be over before it started (if using the latest, advanced Phoenix) as would the AIM-120C for the same reason.

 

In close for DACT/ACM the Eagle guy would always look for the wings to come out on the Tomcat because he would then know in one turn he would have the Tomcat. But the Tomcat driver would use that one turn to gain the advantage and kill the Eagle. So in overall - the planes were roughly equal though I would tend to grant the Eagle a slight advantage overall since it would loose energy more slowly.

 

The engines in the F-14D, A+ and B were the key that made the Tomcat a formidable air to air oponent. Prior to that it was called the Tom Turkey for a reason (although the Libyan AF had cause to dispute that ........)

 

are the FM parameters not quite right? I don't know. I do a fair job at modding but coming up with the flight model parameters is beyond my current level of skill in this sim. I think I have a pretty good handle on testing these and I think both the F-15 and F-14 models are pretty darn good and as close to realistic and relative performance levels as the sim can replicate.

 

glad to see the F-14D mod getting a workout!

 

:yes:

[Blasto 0]

I agree with you Crusader.

Thanks also to Typhoid.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Blasto

[+Typhoid 231]

no eagle was killed over bekaa valley.. only one damaged by a missile which was fired by a mig-21 which popped out and sneaked up on the eagles 6 o'clock.. there wasnt a dogfight.

 

re eagle vs tomcat performace in the game :

both FMs are 2 to 3 years old, and not up to date with the latest changes and tweaks of the last couple of patches.

the FM of the strike eagles is the oldest ( IIRC)

the tomcat FM was made by column5 and is very accurate despite its age since he had excellent resources ( but not tweaked for the latest patch ).

 

 

concur. It is hard to accept the logic that in a battle with an 80 to ZERO exchange rate with one Eagle damaged as described the Eagle is not a good air to air fighter. The hard truth is that in actual combat operations - not one Eagle has been lost in air to air combat by any air force that operates it and not one opponent in air to air combat has survived the engagement. That is a pretty remarkable record.

 

having said that...

 

The latest Fulcrum and Flanker variants are top notch air to air machines and are rated by OUR GUYS as being slightly better.

 

Besides, our Eagles now tend to come apart in mid-air in a hard turn......

 

(looking for a mod that replicates that particular performance parameter)

 

 

[column5 63]

This is the only warning you get! Don't even start that old tired flame war!

Next one gets you on the bench for a few weeks!

 

Touchy on Supa Hornet sexuality?

[+Typhoid 231]

Touchy on Supa Hornet sexuality?

 

the last radio call by the last Intruder on its final carrier launch was (not kidding)

 

"The FAGs have it"

 

(Fighter Attack Guys)

 

gotta have a sense of humor and a thick skin around the boat!

 

[HrntFixr 4]

Touchy on Supa Hornet sexuality?

 

Not at all..... first strike if you will to squash it before it rears it's ugly head.

 

 

and yes I heard all the "F.A.G." jokes,

 

 

 

 

remember I'm a SLUFF guy from waaaaayyyyyyyy back!!!!!!!!!!

[Viggen 644]

Since we are talking about this, how screwed would the Kitty be against an F-16C or Mirage 2000-5?

[+Typhoid 231]

Since we are talking about this, how screwed would the Kitty be against an F-16C or Mirage 2000-5?

 

the Mirage I don't know about.

 

in close against an F-16 both the Eagle and Tomcat would be dead meat. But they would never get in close........

 

[FastCargo 412]

the Mirage I don't know about.

 

in close against an F-16 both the Eagle and Tomcat would be dead meat. But they would never get in close........

 

 

I've heard the same thing from some buds who are former F-14 pilots. The Viper is simply vicious in a close fight.

 

I'd imagine a Mirage 2000-5 would be about the same in close. During Red Flag, the M2k5 pilots were pretty much even in close in fights with the OPFOR Vipers.

 

Which made for some funny ACMI reviews...'Wagon train' dogfights...

 

FastCargo

[Caesar 305]

The former 'Cat pilots that I've talked to say the Viper is a royal pain, but if the Viper pilot didn't respect the Turkey, especially the big-engine B&D models, they could get a nasty surprise damn quick.

 

I seem to recall "Hey Joe" Parsons's account of one such engagement, the Viper pilot horrified to see the Big Engined Turkey follow him through the vertical and gun him, saying something to the effect of "Do you have any idea of how big your intakes look when you're behind us!?" in the debrief. Among other things, the reliable GE's allowed the Turkey to play with the port/starboard thrust ratio without inducing a stall, "Snort" Snodgrass being one pilot who used differential thrust to whip the nose places it shouldn't be in ACM/BFM...though NATOPS kind of prohibits that...

 

Still, against a G-Machine as the pilots attest, the Tomcat is in for a tough fight.

[sparkomatic 7]

Vipers are vicious, so are Hornets...

 

Eagles can be slow and lumbering in the hands of a ham-fisted-idiot...have also witnessed one Eagle shred 2 Vipers in seconds, close enough to see eye color...you will never take pilot skill out of the equation, period (OK, UAV, but that is a different discussion, lets go ahead ad start that one too...

[sparkomatic 7]

wait...why do I even care any more? half of you dont listen and...screw it...

[+NGHENGO 14]

concur. It is hard to accept the logic that in a battle with an 80 to ZERO exchange rate with one Eagle damaged as described the Eagle is not a good air to air fighter. The hard truth is that in actual combat operations - not one Eagle has been lost in air to air combat by any air force that operates it and not one opponent in air to air combat has survived the engagement. That is a pretty remarkable record.

 

having said that...

 

The latest Fulcrum and Flanker variants are top notch air to air machines and are rated by OUR GUYS as being slightly better.

 

Besides, our Eagles now tend to come apart in mid-air in a hard turn......

 

(looking for a mod that replicates that particular performance parameter)

 

Hi Anders, it's a pleasure having a discussion with you, but you forgiven our (European) Typhoon, it seems better than all other aircraft in dogfight, russians and maybe than the Raptor too......

 

Mau.

Edited January 30, 2008 by NGHENGO

[Blasto 0]

Yes, as you say the f14d has new engines and more power then f14a but listen:

the f14d has the engine General Electric F-110 which are a version of the f100 of the eagle.

The strike eagle has the F100-PW-229 which have a huge power.

The F-14D is powered by two F110-GE-400 engines with 28,200 lbs thrust each.

The F-15E is powered by two F100-PW-229 engines with 29.160 lbs thrust each.

The tomcat weight is 19.800 kg

The eagle weight is 12.975 kg

And finally the f15 make turn of 16° and the f14 only 14°.

I think that the f15e is much stron than the f14d in a dogfight: much power, less weight, better turn!

What can you tell me about? Do you agree?

[sparkomatic 7]

ah...you mean both of them you can get in the air? well they are only 15 years late, thanks to European Cooperation...have fun with that...but since you are comparing them to your former F-104S, you probably do think they are awesome

 

go ahead, ban me...

[+Brain32 265]

Well guys I found the words of the F-16 pilot who talked about F-15 vs F-14 as he trained against both and the F-18 too. He flew Block30 and his words were VERY interesting to me

Here's the quote:

For fighter vs. fighter, the F-15C was the more difficult opponent. Having flown neither, but trained vs. both, the Ego drivers did nothing but A/A. It made the community a little inbred, but they also got very good. From a performance standpoint, the F-15C has better P/W than even the GE motored F-14's. They both had radars that could detect targets well in excess of their weapons Rmax, and like Sensei said, the Phoenix was primarily for non-maneuvering targets (though its loft profile might make it difficult to detect it in time to defeat it by maneuver.) The RIO started out as a necessary crew member to run the labor intensive AWG-9 radar, but in later years his duties changed/broadened, with the APG-71, LANTIRN and the transition to "Bombcat". The Phoenix was phased out of fleet service several years before the Tomcat itself IIRC, though they could carry AIM-7 Sparrow. There was talk of integrating AMRAAM, but I think that was nixed given the limited remaining service life planned for the Tomcat at that point. The Eagle's AMRAAM is better suited to the full spectrum of threats, from bombers to fighters to cruise missiles. It doesn't fly as far (at least not yet) because it doesn't need to out range an anti-ship cruise missile like the Tomcat/Phoenix did. It just needs to have better F-pole/E-pole numbers than bad-guy AAM's.

 

Having said all that, the most humbling A/A engagement I've ever had was at the hands of an F-14 crew 2v1 vs. me and our weapons officer. They fought specific anti-F-16 tactics, and were one of the senior crews of their squadron (LCmdr driving, Cmdr in the pit IIRC.) They rarely got above 140 kts, and just used their higher alpha to point at us (and the extra pair of eyes to call the switch) and keep us both beaten down on energy. They wouldn't have wanted to do that in a bigger engagement, but in this training enviornment, it worked well. By the same token, F-18's could be easy or hard, depending on who was flying, and what their training emphasis was. The Marines at Iwakuni never gave us many problems A/A, but the Canadians out of Sollingen were another matter. Then again, were I a FAC, I'd want to talk to the Marines first. Though the Canadians were still more than capable A/G, the Marines trained for that more.

 

Taking off the fighter pilot cap (helmet?) for a second, and putting on my SecDef hat, my decision might swing to the Tomcat. The Eagle is strictly A/A, and has nothing more dangerous to offer A/G than harsh language. In this age of asymmetric threats, that just won't cut it. The Tomcat can also operate off of four acres of soveriegn U.S. real estate over 70% of the globe, while the Eagle needs a runway close to the bad guys somewhere on the remaining 30%, probably requiring a lot more tanker support. The only big minus for the Tomcat at the planning level is its HUGE maintenance requirement, which was in fact what doomed it to retirement.

[S-70 Blackhawk 0]

Yeah it' is a good idea, we do a multiplayer test to see the turn.

I do another install with the f15e and the f14d.

 

I'LL BE PLEASED TO DO A MULTI WITH EVERYONE WHO WANT TEST WHAT I'M SAING!

 

IF YOU WANT HERE THER IS MY SQUADRON:

http://maricosom.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=37

 

 

HERE THE PHOTOS OF YEARSTDAY

 

 

http://maricosom.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2095

 

By any chance does that forum come in english? Also, on TS, do you speak english? I've been looking to join a vSquadron, but I cant sign up if I cant understand your tactics etc

Cheers buddy

Blackhawk

[Blasto 0]

By any chance does that forum come in english? Also, on TS, do you speak english? I've been looking to join a vSquadron, but I cant sign up if I cant understand your tactics etc

Cheers buddy

Blackhawk

 

 

Yeah you can write in english and on ts i can speak english.

[+streakeagle 871]

Faulting the F-15C for being optimized and having pilots trained explicitly for air-to-air while comparing it to the F-14 is ludicrous.

The F-14 was built to do one thing: protect the fleet from Mach 3 high-altitude cruise missiles.

The fact that it had better performance/maneuverability than the F-4 it replaced was an added bonus.

It wasn't until the F-14 was modified that their pilots trained for anything other than Air-to-Air role.

F-15s were modified too... they call them Strike Eagles, and like the F-14Ds, they are a little heavier but have the option for bigger engines.

 

The F-14s advantages in endurance, cruising range, and low end turning/hi-aoa come at the cost of the weight of the variable geometry wings.

Notice that not one fighter has been built VG since the 60s: cost/benefit ratio proved to be too low in practice: weight, complexity, monetary cost, maintenance, etc.

 

As it is, despite the apparent advantages of having multi-role aircraft, the F-15C's dedication to air superiority guarantees that we get it quickly and keep it.

Not being able to use them very effeciently as bomb trucks is a small price to pay.

Of course, aside from training issues, F-15Cs can carry their fair share of dumb bombs, and I bet if they were really needed, that it wouldn't take too many modificiation to make them capable of delivering a much wider array of air-to-ground weapons seeing as how the F-15Cs were designed to work with FAST packs (Fuel and Sensor... i.e. air-to-ground night vision and laser designation packages). I don't know if F-15C's were fully wired to support it and probably don't have any software installed, but they were intended to be a dual-role airplane. The problem was that the USAF wanted a dedicated 2-seater to handle the work load, and hence went with the F-15E since the F-15D gave up some ECM to squeeze in the 2nd seat.

 

Either aircraft can do the job, but unless you need carrier ops, the F-15 was the better deal overall.

I am not sure why the Shah of Iran chose the Tomcat, but all of the other foreign countries with the cash to buy any aircraft they wanted chose the F-15 for air defense/air superiority.

Those on a budget were forced to buy cheaper multi-role aircraft like the F-16 and F/A-18.

 

In all honesty, I think German F-4F+ ICE aircraft are as good a platform as F-15s and F-14s for air superiority and almost as good as F-16/F/A-18s for ground attack.

So what if it can't dogfight as well... when was the last time an F-15 got in a dogfight while using AMRAAM supported by AWACS?

[cgold 0]

Blasto, do you have a problem with the Tomcat winning?

Edited January 30, 2008 by cgold