Russian Weapons and ECM/Countermeasures

[DarthRevan]

Is it some way to get the Russian missiles less sensitive to Countermeasures/ECM I took a flight of MiG-25s and was setup against a flight of Viggens non of my R-40Ts and R-40Rs hit. The MiG-23 Weapons are worthless against Countermeasures/ECM. Is the Russian Missile that ineffective against Countermeasures/ECM? I have only encountered this with the earlier MiGs (21,23,25) MiG-29 and Su-27/33 weapon works fine against Countermeasures/ECM.

[jaeger_301]

Is it some way to get the Russian missiles less sensitive to Countermeasures/ECM I took a flight of MiG-25s and was setup against a flight of Viggens non of my R-40Ts and R-40Rs hit. The MiG-23 Weapons are worthless against Countermeasures/ECM. Is the Russian Missile that ineffective against Countermeasures/ECM? I have only encountered this with the earlier MiGs (21,23,25) MiG-29 and Su-27/33 weapon works fine against Countermeasures/ECM.

 

sounds fine to me, especially in the missile sector the lack of modern semicontuctor showed off, also the russian missile design was way behind the us.

 

a russian engineer described the examination of a captured aim 7 as an university study and the result was the R27 series with the performance of an aim7

 

it took some time to develop ECCM for the smaller aim´s and the aim7 m was the first sparrow series with home on jam feature.

 

Jaeger

[kukulino]

Well... There were some good flame discussions about this theme on ComabatACE and on Thirwire forums...

 

... blue fans said that soviet missiles are copies or something like that and are not very good. And on the other hand reds said that soviet missiles are better than blue fans though, and newest soviet missiles are much better that blue ones, hehe

 

Than was discussed statistics... Blues said that look on them... Reds said look on ours... Hahaha, never ending story

 

 

But in SFP1 world you can do what you want. With missiles too :yes: So if you want make some weapons better, you need play with weapons values in wepon editor. If you have installed weaponspack, you have installed weponeditor too.

 

Take a look into knowledge base for some needed info: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showforum=189

 

 

Looks like in WOI are some weapons changes and some missile are not so deadly. So after new patch for WOE/V it will be better I hope.

 

 

Take a look here too: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=24967

It is older topic. There are some soviet missiles datas posted (for newer missiles). We are waiting for new patch. Than we can discuss again about red missiles characteristics I hope.

 

I am on red side of course It is possible make R-3S missile killer... like AIM-9L But it is not good way. R-3S for Mig-21 series is old missile. It is not dogfigt missile like R-60 or R-73 or AIM-9L, so we can not hit everything everytime. If target is not equiped with flares you have relatively good chance hit - I mean bomber. But if you are in dogfight, you need be carefull in fire R-3S in manoeuvres on manoeuvreing target... Cannon is better in close range

 

 

Take a look into download section for some new weapons models: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...tted&num=10

 

 

Use for Su-7/17/22/ ECM containers made by ravenclaw_007. Use Gardeniya-1FUE ECM Pod for Su-27 by Erwin_Hans. Try new weapons by lindr2 :yes:

Edited September 10, 2008 by kukulino

[+SayethWhaaaa]

There's nothing stopping you from making your own versions of the weapons that are more resistant to spoofing. When it comes to the Eastern Bloc weapons, particularly the more modern ones, I've always felt they were a little under performing. I'm not going to argue with the authors of the weapons packs because I know they're trying to create the realism from the data they have at hand, but I find it a little frustrating when my R-77s get spoofed immediately, but my AMRAAMs almost never miss. I like my enemies to have teeth, no matter who they are.

 

Also, with the older missiles, don't forget that their tracking hardware was pretty rudimentary. Half the time it was luck that early model Aim-9s hit their target and this was especially true for early generation Soviet AAMs.

 

My advice, play around with the weapons editor and see what you come up with.

[jaeger_301]

my R-77s get spoofed immediately, but my AMRAAMs almost never miss. I like my enemies to have teeth, no matter who they are.

 

the R 77 has the HOJ feature and you better turn your jammer of below 20nm otherwise you are a missile magnet.

 

but the R 40 series and their generation is way behind the AIM 7

just as a small example, the KAL shootdown - one missile missed the straight flying 747 with a bomberlike big radar return.

 

Jaeger

[+MigBuster]

Is it some way to get the Russian missiles less sensitive to Countermeasures/ECM I took a flight of MiG-25s and was setup against a flight of Viggens non of my R-40Ts and R-40Rs hit. The MiG-23 Weapons are worthless against Countermeasures/ECM. Is the Russian Missile that ineffective against Countermeasures/ECM? I have only encountered this with the earlier MiGs (21,23,25) MiG-29 and Su-27/33 weapon works fine against Countermeasures/ECM.

 

 

The flares/chaff dont seem anywhere near as effective in WOI - if you are that bothered though you can use the weapons editor to make better R-40s like I did for my WOE install.

 

As for the R-40T/R what was the success rate of those fired in combat and testing - and against what ECM systems were they launched against? and in what environment? well good luck finding that out - so on that basis you just have to guess.

[DarthRevan]

Seems like they were that bad so I'll keep them as they are for realism

[Lt. James Cater]

Someone has to ask the stupidly obvious questions so i guess i'll be the first.

 

Are you sure you are firing the missles within their optimum envelope? It's not all lock and fire sometimes. I can't count how many times i've been right on a target and the missle wasn't even close even though i fired under what i thought was a proper or reasonable setup for a kill.

[+column5]

Seems like they were that bad so I'll keep them as they are for realism

 

Good to avoid revisionism. Its well documented that Soviet electronic systems, including radars, missiles, ECM, etc. were inferior to their western counterparts, sometimes by a wide margin up into the 1980s. Eventually they started to produce some really deadly missiles, like the AA-11, but prior to that...crap.

 

Still...the missiles were good enough to shoot down 747s.

[Jug]

Good to avoid revisionism. Its well documented that Soviet electronic systems, including radars, missiles, ECM, etc. were inferior to their western counterparts, sometimes by a wide margin up into the 1980s. Eventually they started to produce some really deadly missiles, like the AA-11, but prior to that...crap.

 

Still...the missiles were good enough to shoot down 747s.

 

I read somewhere that the Su-15 pilot that shot down that KAL 747 committed suicide. Not a great deal of honor as a warrior shooting down a clearly marked commercial aluminum overcast. If it had been me, my missiles would have malfunctioned.....all of them. Of course, I come from a different military background.

[+column5]

I read somewhere that the Su-15 pilot that shot down that KAL 747 committed suicide. Not a great deal of honor as a warrior shooting down a clearly marked commercial aluminum overcast. If it had been me, my missiles would have malfunctioned.....all of them. Of course, I come from a different military background.

 

 

It must have been recently, because he was on an episode of History's Mysteries filmed 7 or 8 years ago. It was on a couple of weeks ago, and was very interesting. The thrust of the show was questioning whether the actual shootdown occurred over international waters. There is no doubt that the 747 violated Soviet airspace twice, but the shootdown may have occurred just after it had exited their airspace for the second time.

 

The show also revealed that US EC-135s were operating in the area that very night, and they looked at whether the Sovs could have possibly mistaken the 747 for a 135 (verdict: possibly, although the airliner was running with appropriate lights on).

 

Anyway, its a good episode if you can catch it, and the Soviet shooter was interviewed.

[+Piecemeal]

Someone has to ask the stupidly obvious questions so i guess i'll be the first.

 

Are you sure you are firing the missles within their optimum envelope? It's not all lock and fire sometimes. I can't count how many times i've been right on a target and the missle wasn't even close even though i fired under what i thought was a proper or reasonable setup for a kill.

 

I've found from my experiences that the AIM-9J/N/P series are especially known for this. Has anyone else noticed this?

[+lindr2]

russian missile effective is VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION any missiles family must viewed separately with referense to ECM specifed ERA

 

I work in russian defense industry more 10 years, but my father work since 1975, he was work at avionics for Su-17M4, Su-24 (different models),Su-27, Su-34, Su-30 , Tu-22M3, Tu-95, and some others, in 1997 he flew to China, for help to creation low fly POD's for attack planes.

 

R-40 family - very bad situation realisation this missile have some important errors

 

1) R-40 has 6 very different variants R-40R, R-40T, R-40RD, R-40TD, R-40RD-1, R-40TD-1

 

R-40D family is mostly new missile with old body, used advanced R-23 seeker

 

R-40D-1 used advanced R-24 seeker

 

2) R-40 can ONLY used on MiG-25P, R-40D, R-40D-1 can ONLY used on MiG-25PD, R-40TD-1 can used on MiG-31 family

 

R-23 and R-24 - is new era in russian weapons. seeker of this missiles have mono-impulse mode, this mechanism provided "...works fine against Countermeasures" according russian sources R-23 the least sensible to Countermeasures missile of the world, up to 1982, when USA make AIM-7M.

according russian sources R-24 work more good that AIM-7M but worse that AIM-7P.

In combat trainings on russian programme "Agressors" (copy american trainings ) MiG-23MLD's "Agressors" withR-24 without problems win air battles against

MiG-29 (9-12) with R-27 with counts 8:2, 7:3, 9:1, But Su-27's allways get out MiG-23MLD frrom the sky...

 

R-27 Unique in detail the known case of application of R-27 was in the war-time in Ethiopia. The Russian mercenaries on Su-27's unsuccessfully fired at

MIG-29's of Erithrea, piloted the Ukrainian mercenaries. Then Su-27 applied R-73 and 2 MIG-29 were destroyed.

After a fight an inquiry was prosecuted, why all R-27 missed the target, it turned out that MIG-29's had done the protective manoeuvre with 8.5-9G.

 

P.S. R-40D,D-1 ini

 

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[WeaponData2182]

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[+MigBuster]

I've found from my experiences that the AIM-9J/N/P series are especially known for this. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

AIM-9J was pants -did get kills but quite a few fired in 72 by the USAF and quite a lot went no where near according to pilot accounts - the N/P were later improved versions of the J and still only rear aspect - dont know about the N but the later P variant was used by Iran and had good combat performance according to Iranian accounts.

 

Poor old Iraq its written that they were so shocked with the R-13/R-13R performance compared to Irans AIM-9P that they purchased AIM-9Bs from Jordan in 83 - and French Magic R550s in 81 and 84.