Highly interesting: Red Flag lecture

[+Brain32 265]

Well anyway I come onto theese two links, basically a guy is talking about the Red Flag excersizes with IAF(Indian Air Force), nothing that sounds too confidential but interesting nevertheless. He describes how things went along with F-15,F-16,F-22 vs Su-30 and MiG-21Bison. One of the really interesting things is the way he talks about MiG-21Bison it seems that baby is a bad@ss lil' plane. He also mentions French Rafale, F-15K...anyway watch and see:

[+Jug 99]

Interesting to note the speaker's comments about the high uncontrollable sink rate developed by the SU-30 in a scissors maneuver with an opponent when the vectored thrust is initiated. Proves once again that throwing a big jet sideways doesn't generate a lot of lift......Duh! He was impressed with the Su-30's weapons capability and the SU-30 radar's passive detection mode. F-16s and F-15s are out of luck if the Su-30 pilot is experienced. According to the brief, the Raptor is turning out to be one helluva dogfighter. Tough situation when you can't see the bad guy and, even if you lucked into it, the bad guy can still out-fly you. Excellent briefing though. Thanks for the link Brain32.

[+ghostrider883 526]

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action

 

Nov 5, 2008

David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick

 

Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.

 

That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.

 

The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.

 

The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.

 

Once at Red Flag, "90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot" they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. "They never came to any merges," which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while "sucking up all the trons" to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.

 

He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

 

But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.

 

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating.

 

He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

 

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

 

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

 

A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.

 

Was the video an official USAF media briefing? How authentic is the claim of the guy of being an American F-15 pilot? Can it be psyops?

 

Views from other side:

It also gives an opportunity to make believe their airmen/people believe that SU-30 MKI is just another fighter and also IAF pilots lost everyday with their prime Su-30 MKIs. This message is Good for their airmen/people …but not good for IAF PILOTS…. as they want.

 

2. This passes the message to IAF and Indians ..that IAF is loosing heavily, if IAF is not connected with US/NATO standard data links and information sharing systems/compatible networks et’ all Fighters…and hence IAF will never become an ally of USAF\NATO in the future ..even in case IAF needs any help from USAF\NATO to tackle some one else.

 

1. To say the USAF had the better of the IAF in 1vs1 needs to be substantiated. Since all exercises were with ACMI maybe the USAF would like to substantiate this claim of 'drilling brains out' and 'we dominated' with ACMI recordings.

 

2. The USAF had similar number of fratricide during the exercise as the IAF. Considering they are fully networked with datalink, IFF Mode 4 etc. which is a greater cause of concern? IAF fratricides or USAF fratricides?

 

3. The behaviour of the MKI in thrust vectoring is incorrectly described. Maybe someone who has actually flown against the MKI can do better justice, provided it’s an honest and unbiased assessment.

 

4. The IAF sustained operations 20000km away from home and had the least dropout rate. Prudence demands that safety procedures be adopted to enhance operations; could the engine operations be viewed against this backdrop?

 

5. Now consider this; the inexperienced IAF aircrew adapted so beautifully to the environment (that was totally alien), training rules (that were significantly different from IAF's), airspace regulations etc in a short span of two weeks, and yet somehow they were unable to exploit the jet in its envelope (something that they have been practicing to do for four to five years ) – does it sound convincing? If youngsters can adapt to new rules and environment in a short span of time, its only because they are extremely comfortable and confident of the machine and not otherwise. Also let’s not forget that this was the not the first outing of the IAF against the F-15 and F-16s. They have flown against these ac in the past and are aware of their capabilities. So doesn't sound convincing at all.

 

1. No 1vs1s were flown during the Flag,nor did they engage in Thrust Vectoring(TV) then.IvIs were flown during the sorties in Mountain Home AFB and that too on the first day only! In none of these ex were the Su ever shot down or become vulnerable(This can of course be checked on the ACMI Pod films/casettes).

 

2.The data rates of turn and TV with regard to the Su is grossly out- the ones on the F-22 may be closer to the truth!! The figures for the Su are very much more than that referred to in the video!!

 

3.The Radar of the F-22 is superior to the Su presently!

 

4.Fratricide by our side did take place, more due to not being networked-it occurred when the AWACS was not available(u/s) and a very poor standard of controlling by USAF controllers( terminology and accent).This was mentioned in the debrief.Surprisingly, Fratricide was present for the F-15C as well as other allied A/C. Considering that they were better networked( Link-16,IFF-Mode 4 etc), while we had nothing,it should be a matter of concern for them and not us!!

 

5.FOD-Take-Off separation-was 30" at Mountain Home but extended to 1min and known to all participants before the start of the Ex!!

 

6.Incidentally,Mission achievement ratio was higher than 90%, whereas the mission success rates were significantly lower for the USAF, inspite of us op some 20000 kms away!!

 

7.Our level of experience was a standard Sqn cross-section and our youngsters performed very well in the new environment and not one rule was violated.Our professional approach was very favourably commented upon.

 

8. In the ultimate analysis, we had a significant edge all throughout and retained it.

 

It appears that this video was to pep up the US industry, showing that the F-22 is the answer to the Su-30MKI and one never knows-this will be the pitch for larger orders!!

 

Judge for yourself .

Edited November 7, 2008 by ghostrider883

[FastCargo 412]

He's an F-15C Weapons School grad.

 

FastCargo

[WarlordATF 1]

Boy those videos got taken down fast, i watched them about an hour ago and now they are gone. Not so sure i would believe to much from them, anyone can put on a flightsuit and film it, there was really nothing to support anything that was said.

[+ST0RM 145]

It was real, and it wasnt meant for the basic civilian audience. Glad it got taken down. While not Classified, it should be Confidential/Need to Know. If it really was an Aussie that filmed it and uploaded it, bad on him.

 

-S

[censored 0]

It was real, and it wasnt meant for the basic civilian audience. Glad it got taken down. While not Classified, it should be Confidential/Need to Know. If it really was an Aussie that filmed it and uploaded it, bad on him.

 

-S

 

Word of warning: Once released on the web, forever released on the web. There is a duplicate copy of this video already available on YouTube.

 

 

I've seen other copies of these videos available on Indian websites, and both Aviation Week and Flight International already have commentaries posted on the video on their respective websites. This genie isn't going back in the bottle.

[WarlordATF 1]

I found this much more interesting...

 

[+Dave 2,318]

The problem here fellas is that a lot of us are US military on this site and that stuff could get us into some hot water. I don't hide who I am or my affiliation with it so now you all compromise my position and others here at CA. Its takes one person to make a phone call to OSI and we will be sitting in their office answer questions for hours. So lets be on the safe side and keep the links off here. Thanks.

[WarlordATF 1]

The problem here fellas is that a lot of us are US military on this site and that stuff could get us into some hot water. I don't hide who I am or my affiliation with it so now you all compromise my position and others here at CA. Its takes one person to make a phone call to OSI and we will be sitting in their office answer questions for hours. So lets be on the safe side and keep the links off here. Thanks.

 

Understood, If you check my Link its just a TV show, nothing that should cause anyone any problems. I fully understand what your saying and would never do anything to cause any of our member undue grief. (due grief, thats another story )

[FastCargo 412]

Warlord,

 

Your TV show link is fine...it's the lecture links that we would encourage people not to put up here.

 

Folks, just a quick heads up. Anytime you find something on the web with markers like 'sensitive' or 'FOUO', it's probably something that should have not been released to the general public. It's not classified (as in 'go to jail for the rest of your life' type stuff) but it's something that could be misinterpreted by media outlets, or something that could be used by threat forces to build up an idea of capabilities.

 

The freedoms we enjoy in our modern democratic societies are a double edged sword. On the one hand, it means we can speak our minds without fear of official government reprisals. On the other hand, it also means that the responsibility to know what's okay to speak about and what's better to keep to yourself is ultimately your responsibility.

 

FastCargo

[+Dave 2,318]

Understood, If you check my Link its just a TV show, nothing that should cause anyone any problems. I fully understand what your saying and would never do anything to cause any of our member undue grief. (due grief, thats another story )

 

99%of the time, a person just doesn't know. Which is all good to a point. Example though, there was a USAF member on another board talking too much about the F-22 he flew, and well lets put it this way, he got his ass in a serious sling over it. At last I heard, was removed from flying the F-22 and severely reprimanded.

 

I am in the USAF, along with a bunch of others. Its not hard to find out who we are and to get called in on some post we presumed to be innocent.

[+Brain32 265]

Sorry Dave, it just didn't look like something that could get anybody in trouble. In future when I'm uncertain if the thing could be problematic I'll contact you or any of the admin team first.

[+Dave 2,318]

Sorry Dave, it just didn't look like something that could get anybody in trouble. In future when I'm uncertain if the thing could be problematic I'll contact you or any of the admin team first.

 

No apologies need Brain.

[Silverbolt 104]

Interesting to note the speaker's comments about the high uncontrollable sink rate developed by the SU-30 in a scissors maneuver with an opponent when the vectored thrust is initiated. Proves once again that throwing a big jet sideways doesn't generate a lot of lift......Duh! He was impressed with the Su-30's weapons capability and the SU-30 radar's passive detection mode. F-16s and F-15s are out of luck if the Su-30 pilot is experienced. According to the brief, the Raptor is turning out to be one helluva dogfighter. Tough situation when you can't see the bad guy and, even if you lucked into it, the bad guy can still out-fly you. Excellent briefing though. Thanks for the link Brain32.

 

Hi Jug, Have you saw this??

 

http://www.areamilitar.net/noticias/noticias.aspx?NrNot=687

Do you think it's trustable?

[+Jug 99]

Hi Jug, Have you saw this??

 

http://www.areamilitar.net/noticias/noticias.aspx?NrNot=687

Do you think it's trustable?

The article repeats most of what was said in the debriefing (now off line) noted on this thread. Is it trustworthy? In my opinion it is as trustworthy as the briefing was.

 

It seems to me that an expedition to the United States to participate in the Red Flag exercises must be a very expensive thing to do. To arrive and not test your men and machinery to the maximum extent possible seems to defeat the purpose of the trip. The French showed up with their Rafael only to hold back and stay out of the fight (merge). Indians showed up and did not use the best capacity of their radars, but they did bring regular line pilots instead of their test pilot level aviators. Still seems to me the Indians and the French left out of a full expensive flying test, all of their capacities and did not get some real questions answered. This opportunity will not come again quickly ($$$$).

 

At the end of the day, the French will say their Rafael is the best (even though it did not enter the fray), the Indians will say their Su-30 was the best (though the flight results make it closer to a draw with F-16/15), the Indians will say that the MiG-21 Bison is quite formidable still (rightly so), and the Americans can question everybody's opinion because it is our range and our rules.

 

I would be willing to bet that all participants are better, more professional aviators for the experience.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Jug

[+ST0RM 145]

Nicely put Jug.

 

-S

[+Dave 2,318]

Right on Jug, right on.

[+ghostrider883 526]

The IAF at Red Flag 2008: The True Story

 

Hi ... for all of you who are out there in the internet world and who have an interest in the performance of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag 2008 .. I have a few remarks. As the only Indian journalist who spent a lengthy period of time at Nellis after being granted permission by both the Indian Air Force and the US Air Force, I was granted access to impeccable sources in both forces. Whats more, I was able to independently corroborate this information with reliable, alternative sources.

 

Several of the points I present here in the form of this post on the Bharat Rakshak forum will be compiled into an article which I will post on my company website ndtv.com. For those of you not familiar with the Indian media ... New Delhi Television (NDTV) is India's largest 24 hour news network and our website is one of the most viewed among news websites in the country. For the moment, I have decided not to do a television news report on this since I believe the contents of this post are too technical for a larger audience.

 

For starters ... and this cannot be stressed enough ... the Red Flag exercises were a brilliant learning experience for all the participants, not least of all the Indian Air Force which, over a period of time, has earned the reputation of being one of the world's finest operational air forces.

 

This was a reputation which was reinforced at Red Flag 2008, the world's most advanced air combat exercises where the Indian Air Force fielded a number of state of the art Sukhoi 30 MKI jets in addition to IL-76 transports and IL-78 mid air refuellers.

 

For other participants at the Red Flag exercises ... namely the South Korean Air Force, French and US Air Force ... the opportunity to train with a platform such as the Sukhoi 30 MKI was an opportunity which just couldn't be missed. This has a lot to do not just with the jet but also with the air force operating the fighter, a force which has made a mark as an innovative operator of fast jets.

 

The US Air Force … the host of these exercises … was singularly gracious in its appreciation for the Indian Air Force contingent which came into Red Flag having trained extensively for the exercises not only back home but also at the Mountain Home Air Force base in the US.

 

Contrary to unsolicited remarks by certain serving US personnel not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises … the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.

 

For starters … not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially.

 

By the time the exercises at Mountain Home had matured … the Indian Air Force had graduated to large formation exercises which featured dozens of jets in the sky. In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force.

 

By the time the Indian Air Force was ready for Red Flag, the contingent had successfully worked up using the crawl, walk, run principle. At Red Flag though, they found themselves at a substantial disadvantage vis a vis the other participants since they were not networked with AWACS and other platforms in the same manner in which USAF or other participating jets were. In fact, Indian Air Force Sukhois were not even linked to one another using their Russian built data links since American authorities had asked for specifics of the system before it was cleared to operate in US airspace. The IAF, quite naturally, felt that this would compromise a classified system onboard and decided to go on with the missions without the use of data links between the Sukhois.

 

Neither was the Indian Air Force allowed to use chaff or flares, essential decoys to escape incoming missiles which had been fired by enemy jets. This was because the US FAA had visibility and pollution related concerns in the event that these were used in what is dense, busy air space in the Las Vegas region.

 

The Red Flag exercises themselves were based on large force engagements and did not see the Indian Air Force deploy thrust vectoring at all on any of the Sukhoi 30 jets not that this was required since the engagements were at long ranges.

 

Though it is true that there were 4-5 incidents of fratricides involving the Indian Air Force at Red Flag … it is important to point out the following:

 

In the debriefs that followed the exercises … responsibility for the fratricides were always put on the fighter controllers not the pilots. Its also important to point that unlike in Mountain Home, none of the Indian Air Force’s own fighter controllers were allowed to participate since there was classified equipment at Nellis used for monitoring the exercises. The lack of adequate controlling and the fact that Nellis fighter controllers often had problems understanding Indian accents (they had problems understanding French accents as well) resulted in a lack of adequate controlling in situations. Whats more … given the fact that the availability of AWACS was often low … the bulk of fratricides took place on days when the AWACS jet was not deployed. Whats important to remember though is that US participants in these exercises had a similar number of fratricides despite being fully linked in with data links and the latest IFF systems.

 

So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants.

 

And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.

 

Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences.

 

At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force.

 

As for its young pilots … these are skills and experiences that they will take back to their squadrons … experiences which will be passed on to a whole new set of pilots who will come into the next set of exercises that much wiser.

 

Vishnu Som

Associate Editor and Senior Anchor

NDTV

[JediMaster 451]

You always learn more when you lose than when you win. Unless you just barely win, almost losing. That can be just as good.

You can win with flawed tactics/procedures if the other guy makes a mistake. Then you decide those are worth keeping, while next time the other guy may NOT make that mistake and you're in trouble.

[+ST0RM 145]

"I shot you"

"No you didnt"

"Yes I did"

"Nope, it was a ricochet"

 

And on, and on...

 

Only those that flew in this Flag, will know the truth. The reporters will say whatever they can to save face for each force.

 

-S

[+Dave 2,318]

"I shot you"

"No you didnt"

"Yes I did"

"Nope, it was a ricochet"

 

And on, and on...

 

Only those that flew in this Flag, will know the truth. The reporters will say whatever they can to save face for each force.

 

-S

 

Exactly, I guess the AWAC's tapes were false.

[+ghostrider883 526]

Only those that flew in this Flag, will know the truth. The reporters will say whatever they can to save face for each force.

 

-S

 

The man is a higly respected & revered journalist in Indian aviation circles. He is the guy who flew back seat on MiG-35, F-16, F-18, Gripen and made nice documentaries on those fighters. The whole point of the article was not mud slinging, but just a balanced view on Indian participation at Redf Flag, unlike the USAF COlonel whose language suggested that the IAF & the Su-30 was no good.

[+Jug 99]

The man is a higly respected & revered journalist in Indian aviation circles. He is the guy who flew back seat on MiG-35, F-16, F-18, Gripen and made nice documentaries on those fighters. The whole point of the article was not mud slinging, but just a balanced view on Indian participation at Redf Flag, unlike the USAF COlonel whose language suggested that the IAF & the Su-30 was no good.

You know, I have this constant battle with my wife, who reads my body language to suit her purpose and steadfastly ignores the words I say. What the USAF Colonel had to say, in my opinion, was very complimentary of the IAF and very respectful of the SU-30 and the MiG-21 Bison. His swagger is just what fighter pilots do.

 

Bye the way, have you ever noticed that "respected and revered" journalists are respected an revered only by other journalists. Media types are bystanders, as in not in the game........ever! They start with a huge credibility gap and rarely fail to finish much higher. Back seat rides in a fighter equate to a Congressional Delegation for one day to any country. Nice photo ops, but not much real content. I'd rather hear from a retiree.

 

I spent some quality time with the IAF attache to Brazil when I was stationed there bellyed up to the bar and off the record. He was a MiG-21 driver and was actively engaged in several air battles with Pakistan. I came away from those meetings with a touch of a hangover and a profound respect for another professional military aviator. If this gentleman is typical of the standard the IAF sets for their own service, then any country should think carefully prior to taking them on. Notice I haven't mentioned hardware at all and for good reason. The guy on the stick is the real difference maker, not what the stick is attached to. I take no offense in good criticism of my country's aircraft, because it is my tax money too that pays for what the lowest bidder rolls off the assembly line. I have been trained sufficiently to fly without incident dangerous aircraft in dangerous places on dangerous missions for some twenty years. I am very satisfied that my AF, and sister services, were then and still are up to whatever challenges we must face in whatever machines we are given to do it with. That is what the swagger is all about. Want some of this, come to Daddy!

 

I stick to what I have said earlier that everybody is a winner that participates in Red Flag and a hard-nosed, straight-shooting evaluation of your forces (people and hardware) is the best part of that participation. I hope the IAF choses to come back.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Jug

[+ST0RM 145]

Jug, your ability to capture the true feelings of one's statement/reply, is unrivaled. You must have been great with OPR/EPRs.

 

Very well said.

 

Ghostrider883 -- Seeing that you from India, and therefore upholding national pride is a concern of yours, allow me to explain. I wasnt downplaying the IAF or the Su-30. Simply put, I dont hold a lot of stock in what ANY journalist says. If they aren't a current/qualified combat pilot/crewman, then they are not giving us the entire picture, just a snapshot based upon what you were allowed to see. If the IAF wasnt willing to show us the full capabilities of the jet, do you honestly think they would show it all off to a civilian that gets paid to pass on information?

 

As Jug said, flying backseat in a fighter is mainly an incentive ride. An untrained guy back there is just self loading baggage.

 

Storm