Normal with "hard" guns vs. Hardcore with "normal guns?

[redwolf 19]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play my favorite sim in the past week or so...was wondering what's the difference between normal DM with "hard" gun settings and hardcore DM with "normal" gun settings?

Edited March 18, 2009 by redwolf

[griphos 0]

This is a good question. I think I may try it. My thinking is that the Hardcore DM takes us back to 1.26 (1.25?? I can't keep track of these fast and furious patches!!), but that might not be right. I hope not. I like the new ways that the planes get shot down. I don't mind having to spend a lot of bullets doing it, but I don't want to return to the way they used to just level out and slowly descend to the ground and crash. I just flew against three Alb.DII in QC (DiD with settings as hard as you can get them) and I loved how each plane reacted differently to being shot down, one exploding, one doing the stall and fall, and one slowly circling with lots of damage until it crashed.

 

At any rate, not having tried Hardcore yet, I can say from lots of experience with the Normal 1.28 DM at hardest settings that it takes a lot less firepower to bring these down than it used to. And the enemy don't open up on you at 1000 ft either. I tried some experiments in QC where I just let them get on my tail and shoot at me and they would wait until they were within 400 ft. Goodonthem!

 

As a side note, when I was just trying to fly away from them so they could come and shoot at me, when I got low to the deck, they wouldn't always follow me and shoot at me. If I got about 1000 ft away down low, I seemed to have opened up an escape route and they let me go. I had to circle back close and run away again for them to shoot at me and one of them crashed himself in the process. Rookie!!!

Edited March 18, 2009 by griphos

[Olham 164]

They say, the Hardcore version makes planes more difficult to down - they can take more hits.

That's both, enemies, and your own plane. So, for me it was no question: I use Hardcore now.

And can take more damage. The weapon effectiveness should still be good with my twin Spandaus.

It's set on 'normal'.

[griphos 0]

So, Olham, when the enemy go down in Hardcore, do they go down in a variety of ways still, as in the 1.28 patch? Are there mid-air collapes and explosions and spirals in?

[Olham 164]

Yes, I had exploding SPADs, folding up two-seaters, tumbling down Nieuports.

And it feels more realistic to me, that they can't be shot up so easily anymore.

It hasn't become too hard now - just a little harder.

And you can always overpatch it with the "normal" patch again.

But I definitely prefer this now.

[griphos 0]

Thanks for the report. I'll give it a try.

[redwolf 19]

So, we basically have six levels of "plane downablility", for lack of a better term:

 

DM normal, easy guns

DM normal, normal guns

DM normal, hard guns

DM hard core, easy guns

DM hard core, normal guns

DM hard core, hard guns

 

Gosh, plenty to choose from!

I'm sure pretty much everyone should be able to find a good fit for them - thanks for all these options! Just haven't been able to put in the time with it lately, unfortunately. Prior to 1.26 (with the initial stock DM), I was wanting something in between normal and hard guns...I suspect now, post 1.28 that DM normal, hard guns would probably be the best fit (????).

Was hoping Winder would chime in here (or one of the other developers). Would love a sort of ranking of the 6 levels as to "plane downability" (eg., is DM hard core, normal guns > DM normal, hard guns?...does DM normal, normal guns = DM hard core, easy guns?, etc.). I would find this very useful and I'm sure others that are trying to find the best fit for them would as well...

...anyways, off to do some flying...

Edited March 19, 2009 by redwolf

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I have been following the DM changes from 1.26 to 1.28a with interest, with an eye on the changes made to the "hitpoints" for the aileron cables, aileron, wings, and wingtips. Using the original 1.0 DM values as a base, here is what I have observed regarding these values (note: all testing with player guns set to normal):

 

1.0 DM

 

cable 100%

aileron 100%

wing 100%

wingtip 100%

 

Observations: Aileron cables especially susceptible to AI fire. All others very sturdy. Few spins, virtually no wings "blowing" off. AI aircraft frequently make "slow glide to death."

 

Easy DM

 

cable 200%

aileron 200%

wing 25%

wingtip 50%

 

Observations: Cables more resistant to AI fire. Wings blown off easily. Control seriously affected by only a few bursts from AI guns. Lots of spins and wings getting blown off.

 

Hard DM

 

cable 200%

aileron 200%

wing 50%

wingtip 75%

 

Observations: Cables resistant to AI fire. Takes longer to lose turn control, probably from stronger ailerons. Wings only blown off occasionally. Less likely to lose control from only a few bursts from AI guns. Some spins, some planes exploding into flames. Overall, a nice balance between the release version and the easy version. If I were to change anything, I might set the values for both aileron cables and aileron to 150%. This would set them to halfway between the original release values and the hardcore values.

[Cpt.Kremmen 0]

I use Hard DM with normal guns.

Didn't like hard guns much. Bullets spread so wide that you do not need to aim too carefully. Just shoot to the general direction of EA, and some bullet is bound to hit.

Now the model is perfect, atleast to my taste.

[Olham 164]

REDWOLF, what would you expect Winder to say to your "confusion" by his offers?

It seemed, after the first patch, that many found the sim too difficult.

Now, the devs offer more choice. But could they tell you, what you should be happy with?

Would you like it most realistic, or more fun?

I think, the most realistic settings would be "hard", the next step down is "normal".

Everything else is, at the name says already, "easy".

 

The choice: more "downing planes" fun, or working out a realistic combat pilot; cannot be made for you.

No reason to feel shame, when you pick "normal" or even "easy", for learning and growing.

 

I show you my settings here - they are not yet all on most difficult. But that's my aim, one day.

And I chose the Hardcore overpatch - it feels more realistic to me (and MY plane is also more stabile!)

[redwolf 19]

REDWOLF, what would you expect Winder to say to your "confusion" by his offers?

 

No malace intended whatsoever and I hope that my post isn't perceived as such...

Was just looking for a general consensus as to the ease of downing a plane with the different settings/levels of play. The appearance of ambiguity seems to lies in the middle (eg. normal, hard guns vs. hard, normal guns). I love the fact that there are many options. I was just looking for thoughts from those who have had more time with it lately, that is all. Herr Prop-Wasche posted some very interesting information regarding the DMs... will have to fly and find the best for me.

[griphos 0]

As I said, I think the original question is interesting, and I'm curious about it as well. I've now flown with Normal DM at normal and at hard, and Hardcore DM at hard (not normal yet) and it's hard for me to see much difference between any of them, to be honest. Perhaps I haven't had enough time on the newer settings to me (or perhaps it's different in QC). Anyway, I'm still curious as to what the differences are in terms of bullet strength and DM "hardness." I'm not curious out of any desire to be told which to use, nor do I think Redwolf was. We can figure out which we prefer. And I was totally fine with the new DM options in 1.28. This patch seemed to really perfect the sim for me, and I've been slow to go beyond it. I installed the new Hardcore DM yesterday b/c it seems the Doves and Hawks will be using it and everyone needs to be the same for MP to work.

 

But for me, at least, curiosity was piqued by the ambiguity created by options like Normal:Hard and Hard:Normal.

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

As Redwolf said, H P-W offered some very interesting info above, but I think he was just comparing the original DM with the Normal and Hard of the new "Normal" DM option.

[Fortiesboy 3]

I'm still trying the different modes- Hardcore and normal- but I am finding that there is hardly any damage shown much in either.

Sure, the planes go down -Hardcore, eventually, and Normal, easier- but I don't see any damage of wings off, explosions etc in either mode..

To me. a plane slowly sycamore leafing it down is not realistic- whether it's taken many or few shots to do it.

I hasten to add that this is in QC - the only scenario i have yet tried, and with later planes only -1917 onwards - but it isn't my idea of realism.

As I have previously said, if you get behind the EA and pump bullets in him, something should give.

There will be breakage of something, as well as canvas, - and that means weakness in the frame , and so more breakages - like wings etc. will become apparent.

 

I have modded my own xmls for better damage and what i get does not make this sim arcade, far from it-

If you use no padlock, no labels, no tac - and always in full cockpit, this is one very immersive sim - IMHO the best there is- as I have now got it-

 

But, then , whatever rocks your boat ,as they say. :)

[themightysrc 5]

Fortiesboy,

 

"I'm still trying the different modes- Hardcore and normal- but I am finding that there is hardly any damage shown much in either.

Sure, the planes go down -Hardcore, eventually, and Normal, easier- but I don't see any damage of wings off, explosions etc in either mode..

To me. a plane slowly sycamore leafing it down is not realistic- whether it's taken many or few shots to do it."

 

May I ask if you have at least reasonably high settings on your PC with regard to detailed graphics, etc? The reason I ask is that I don't see much damage occurring either (on the rare occasions I actually hit anything), but in my case I've put it down to having to run BH&H on very meagre graphic settings (1s and 2s only).

[Olham 164]

Remember, you won't see damage at the highest resolution for the aircraft ! (see: workshop)

 

And try it in campaign. I have just returned from a fight against SPAD XIII - one just exploded from

a severe burst. In the HARDCORE version that was.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Olham

[Fortiesboy 3]

Fortiesboy,

 

"I'm still trying the different modes- Hardcore and normal- but I am finding that there is hardly any damage shown much in either.

Sure, the planes go down -Hardcore, eventually, and Normal, easier- but I don't see any damage of wings off, explosions etc in either mode..

To me. a plane slowly sycamore leafing it down is not realistic- whether it's taken many or few shots to do it."

 

May I ask if you have at least reasonably high settings on your PC with regard to detailed graphics, etc? The reason I ask is that I don't see much damage occurring either (on the rare occasions I actually hit anything), but in my case I've put it down to having to run BH&H on very meagre graphic settings (1s and 2s only).

 

 

the mightysrc S!

 

I have a high spec PC running at 53342 - It normally has a FPS of 50-60, around 30-40 at airfields

 

Oliham - I use normal res- i know about highest res settings in workshop.

 

The fact is that the damage does not occur in QC - I fly mostly QC because of time constraints and variation possibilities are better available.

I will try campaign to see if there is any difference.

I have flown OFF as my main sim since phase 1. I know it intimately. I also know that there is a belief that if the planes take lots of bullets with no damage apparent and ,indeed, they do not go down, then that is "realism"

Well, IMHO, it isn't .

 

cheers

[griphos 0]

Hey Fortiesboy,

 

Hmmmm, I've been flying QC the past few days as I've gone on a kick to try out all the planes, even the German planes! :blush2: I fly each one in a couple of dogfights against two or three enemy just to see how they fight and how much damage they can take.

 

Anyway, I've been off from work, so have spent a good few hours at it.

 

I've noticed a number of explosions (I have to get very close and hit him repeatedly...I usually get seared by the heat I'm so close!), lots of spins down to crash, lots of debris flying off the planes. I don't think I've seen any wings coming off (in QC, I have recently in campaign with 1.28 patch before DM mods on AlbDIIs I've shot). All of this has been with 1.28 before DM mods and 1.28 with Hardcore DM mod with settings at hard. Some of them stall and fall still, which is fine with me, but they mostly die in a number of interesting ways. And it doesn't take that many bullets to do it either, no where near the old 1.25 and prior models.

 

Anyway, that's been my experience the past few days. I'm running settings of 54454, if that makes any difference

[+Polovski 424]

Fortiesboy if you see no damage - wings coming off (especially on normal DM this happens a lot!), bits flying, bullet holes, smoke, fire etc etc then something is wrong with your setup.

 

QC has nothing to do with it.

 

Put aircraft and effects on slider 5 and try.

 

I see LOTS of stuff happening so really not sure what you are looking at.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

More info regarding my above post. All of my testing has been in QC. With DM at hardcore and bullets at normal, I have seen debris flying from wings, planes going into spins from severe damage, mid-air explosions, "falling like a leaf syndrome" (very rare), but no wings coming off. Think I will try with bullets set to strong, normal spread.

 

If you are not seeing debris coming off the plane or puffs of smoke, you are probably too far away. You have to get in close in order to see your "punches" having much of an effect. So, "grab them by the ear and kick them in the ass," is as good advice in the air as it is for the infantry.

[Fortiesboy 3]

Fortiesboy if you see no damage - wings coming off (especially on normal DM this happens a lot!), bits flying, bullet holes, smoke, fire etc etc then something is wrong with your setup.

 

QC has nothing to do with it.

 

Put aircraft and effects on slider 5 and try.

 

I see LOTS of stuff happening so really not sure what you are looking at.

 

 

OK - noted Pol. I decided to do a complete re install in view of your reply. I have just uninstalled from Add / remove programs. (I have also deleted the folders in docs and settings and i have deleted the OBD software folder in C drive. )

 

When i was doing this - it showed that it had removed the Hardcore version of OFF. I take it that that was the version i had presently got installed?

 

Can I ask a stupid question? When I had installed the 1.28a version, I then had also downloaded the two versions Hardcore and Normal. They were each in the form of OFF manager exes.

In order to change between the two, I took it that each time i wanted to do that, I double clicked on the appropriate exe and it thus changed the main install to the one i wanted? Is that the correct and only thing i need to do? And is there a confirmation somewhere as to which version i am running?

 

TIA - I will now re install OFF.

 

cheers

[+Polovski 424]

Yep 1.28a is normal. You will only get hardcore (tougher damage) if you run the hard core installer. You can then go back by running the normal dm patch again. It may well still say hardcore in add/remove programs, as you didn't actually uninstall anything.

[griphos 0]

Hey Pol,

 

I've been using the Hardcore at hardest settings and I think I like it best, but I haven't tried Hardcore at normal yet. I'm still curious, how do the DMs compare between Hardcore at normal and Normal at hardest?

[+Polovski 424]

There are no settings in workshops for DM, it's for bullet strength etc.

 

Best is just try it, we have no charts, as everyone seems to experience different things anyway (so many variables including craft, skill etc). Someone posted some settings they had worked out what was different in another thread.

[catch 81]

Yep 1.28a is normal. You will only get hardcore (tougher damage) if you run the hard core installer. You can then go back by running the normal dm patch again. It may well still say hardcore in add/remove programs, as you didn't actually uninstall anything.

 

Thanks for the clarity Pol. I tried it out on the weekend and loaded the hardcore DM installer followed immediately by the normal DM and was expecting to see how to change from one to the other in workshop. No not there. So I thought well maybe when you go to a campaign mission there will be an option there. No again.

 

So to confirm, if the normal DM was loaded last that's what I'd be on now ? If I reload the hardcore DM that's what I'd be on ? Is there anywhere you can look to see which version is active ?

[catch 81]

Gentlemen, can anyone confirm that to have hardcore DM operational in P3 you simply install the hardcore patch and to go back to normal DM you install the normal DM patch ? And no matter how many times you make the switch the last DM install will over-ride the previous ? There is no switching on and off DM elsewhere ? Sorry I'm a little confused. Must have blown away more than the usual amount of brain cells this month