Still significant AI problems.

[Siggi 10]

I encountered a flight of approx six Nupe 11s in a mission last night. They were all right on the deck and providing a spectacular display of diving and looping aerobatics. I got two of them, they made no attempt to defend themselves or fight back. The AI Halbs, at the same altitude, behaved far better.

 

I have noticed this, that when I select auto-level in my Halb at too low a throttle-setting, it will porpoise indefinitely. Auto-level is, effectively, the AI taking control of my plane.

 

So, it tries to maintain a specific altitude setting and will hunt for it. When auto-level is selected the nose usually drops. The AI then tries to regain the correct altitude with a heavy nose-up maneouver, but low-throttle and too much nose-up causes a stall and the plane falls back below the required altitude. So it noses up again. Repeat ad-infinitum.

 

Low-powered planes like the Nupe 11, when going to zero altitude, are, I believe, experiencing this loop issue. As soon as they hit the trigger-altitude the AI responds with a heavy nose-up, loses speed, drops below the trigger-point again and repeats, ad-infinitum.

 

Is there no way to code a solution for this specific behaviour? Eg:

 

"If plane attains altitude-X plane goes into level flight until speed-X is attainted then begins very very shallow climb until extra altitude-X is attained then normal AI combat mode is reactivated"

 

They might become sitting ducks for a short time under such parameters, but they're sitting ducks already plus they look incredibly stupid.

[Hellshade 110]

I have to say that when using Realistic FM, if I am heavily out numbered or lose sight of my prey, my best chance of survival is to dive for the deck and re-engage them again down at tree top level. They are far less likely to engage me with their guns at low altitude. They seem to be a bit more aggressive if you use the Easy Flight Model, probably because they don't have to work so hard to recover. The trade off, of course, is that then it will end up feeling more like a hollywood movie than a realistic flight sim, complete with low level barrel rolls and a somewhat lesser impact on handling of your own plane if you are only slightly damaged (using Normal DM). I personally have found that that can be pretty fun and exciting in it's own right. However if you are a purist, that naturally is a bad thing. I think your coding solution is excellent. A short time of vulnerability would be an improvement over the current low level combat AI routine of endless dips and climbs. I'm afraid with the Devs drawing a hard line at patch 1.28a, the only hope of getting it implemented would be for someone else to make a 3rd party mod of the OFF P3 FM.

 

Given the incredible passion and support that has gone into making OFF BHaH such an amazing product, I can only speculate that the reason the Devs called a close to further patches is because they have something else on their plate now. Perhaps P4. Perhaps an expansion with more planes and better AI for P3 or maybe something completely new from the ground up. Again, pure speculation on my part. Ok, and a bit of hope too.

 

As far as low level AI is concerned, I found out the hard way that I'm not the only one who can shoot them down. As I brought my trusty SE5a around to have a go at a Hun passing low over my airfield, the boys down below got him with a direct hit of AA to the belly of his craft. I was so shocked that it happened right before my eyes that it took me a second to get a screenshot of it, a moment after the fact. You can still see the big black cloud from where the hit took place and the EA dropping stright down, bottom wings completely gone. What an amazing game.

 

Hellshade

[Siggi 10]

I've noticed that too. I'm just waiting for the time when my own archie takes me out. Friedly archie should cease fire as soon as friendly a/c are in the mix.

[Hellshade 110]

They have never knocked me out of the sky but I did sustain one friendly AA fire hit that knocked me out of the fight. With nobody in close proximity there was a loud burst of black smoke and fire that I caught out of the corner of my eye somewhere under my right wing. Controls were immediately shot to hell and it was all I could do to bring my crate in for a rough landing. I imagine friendly AA fire occurred during the war. I notice however that they DO stop firing as soon as the last EA has been brought down from the sky. At least that lets me know when I can stop looking over my shoulder for trouble. I have the radar turned off so it's the only time I'm not worried about being jumped from above or behind.

 

Hellshade

[+Winder 32]

I encountered a flight of approx six Nupe 11s in a mission last night. They were all right on the deck and providing a spectacular display of diving and looping aerobatics. I got two of them, they made no attempt to defend themselves or fight back. The AI Halbs, at the same altitude, behaved far better.

 

I have noticed this, that when I select auto-level in my Halb at too low a throttle-setting, it will porpoise indefinitely. Auto-level is, effectively, the AI taking control of my plane.

 

So, it tries to maintain a specific altitude setting and will hunt for it. When auto-level is selected the nose usually drops. The AI then tries to regain the correct altitude with a heavy nose-up maneouver, but low-throttle and too much nose-up causes a stall and the plane falls back below the required altitude. So it noses up again. Repeat ad-infinitum.

 

Low-powered planes like the Nupe 11, when going to zero altitude, are, I believe, experiencing this loop issue. As soon as they hit the trigger-altitude the AI responds with a heavy nose-up, loses speed, drops below the trigger-point again and repeats, ad-infinitum.

 

Is there no way to code a solution for this specific behaviour? Eg:

 

"If plane attains altitude-X plane goes into level flight until speed-X is attainted then begins very very shallow climb until extra altitude-X is attained then normal AI combat mode is reactivated"

 

They might become sitting ducks for a short time under such parameters, but they're sitting ducks already plus they look incredibly stupid.

 

We have noted the problem and will fix it.

 

BTW we have no hardline on stopping at patch 1.28a - we are making a hardline at stopping the content for Phase 3.

 

But issues have and will be addressed in patches as we go - in fact we are working on 1.3 patch - BUT IT HAS NO ADDITIONAL SETTINGS OR FEATURES AND NOR WILL IT.....

 

Yep we are still knocking bugs and issues as we go!

 

I will make an announcement soon on what is next for all OFF nutters.

 

Cheers

 

WM

[Siggi 10]

Thanks Winder, that's good to hear. Support is second to none.

[Hellshade 110]

Winder, that is just outstanding. Seriously. I misunderstood and thought that you guys would be releasing no more patches at all. I am glad to hear that while no new content is going to be released for P3 (except possibly if you create and sell an expansion pack, hint hint) you are going to continue to work on bug fixes and AI improvements. Would that every developer was as dedicated to perfecting the quality of their product as you guys are. I can't wait to have a go at fritz at low levels and find him equally as eager and capable to engage me as he is up in the clouds. Tree top dogfights will be some true white knuckle flying then! I can't wait.

 

Hellshade

[Olham 164]

Watch it, HELLSHADE, "Fritz" IS capable - dogfighting underneath treetop level is my speciality!

So, when you check your six, and see tracers from somewhere between a watering can and a

garden dwarf - that's coming from my Albatros D II, and could be the last you ever see.

(After zatt, I like pickkink some apples - Mmuahahahahaaaa!!!!)

[+Polovski 460]

Well we will try to fix it but for the moment try not to play the "game" just fly as you really would. Bit pointless finding out how the AI can be beaten and then applying that trick all the time to avoid it. Just fly as a pilot would - which would not be down low generally.

[Siggi 10]

Well we will try to fix it but for the moment try not to play the "game" just fly as you really would. Bit pointless finding out how the AI can be beaten and then applying that trick all the time to avoid it. Just fly as a pilot would - which would not be down low generally.

 

If I'm having to run for it I go as low as possible, in case of having to make a forced landing. I also figure that forcing them to chase me through trees has a chance of putting them off. It's exactly what I would do in real life. :yes:

[Olham 164]

Siggi - do what you must.

But remember: it looks a damn silly report, saying, your plane rammed into a tree.

Cars and motorbikes - yes. But planes?

[Siggi 10]

Siggi - do what you must.

But remember: it looks a damn silly report, saying, your plane rammed into a tree.

Cars and motorbikes - yes. But planes?

 

I've become a bit of a tree-dodging expert, even if I do say it myself.

[Hellshade 110]

Pol : Nothing is spoiling my fun of OFF BHaH. I still find new ways to enjoy it. I watched Dogfights (history channel, I believe), season 2 where they went through three different WWI fights and re-create them using CGI. Then I grab the pilots and planes they show and try to see how well I can do in the same situtation. Try fighting a flight of 6 SE5as (all aces including flight leader James McCudden) who get the jump on you while you are all alone in a DR 1 as Werner Voss did. He downed 3 and scored hits on every one before he was killed. I have a long way to go to match that!! Anyways, whatever you fix, you fix. Even if low level AI is never improved, this is still the best flight sim I have ever played. period. With TrackIR it's just too immersive to let me play anything else...though I hope to get back to Oblivion eventually.

 

Olham : I didn't mean you buddy. Just some of your AI wingman. :)

 

Sigg : I'm with you. Better a silly report of running away at tree top level than a serious tombstone over your head. Even Richtofen admitted that he ran away from every fight he thought he couldn't win.

[OvS 8]

Pol : Nothing is spoiling my fun of OFF BHaH. I still find new ways to enjoy it. I watched Dogfights (history channel, I believe), season 2 where they went through three different WWI fights and re-create them using CGI. Then I grab the pilots and planes they show and try to see how well I can do in the same situtation. Try fighting a flight of 6 SE5as (all aces including flight leader James McCudden) who get the jump on you while you are all alone in a DR 1 as Werner Voss did. He downed 3 and scored hits on every one before he was killed. I have a long way to go to match that!! Anyways, whatever you fix, you fix. Even if low level AI is never improved, this is still the best flight sim I have ever played. period. With TrackIR it's just too immersive to let me play anything else...though I hope to get back to Oblivion eventually.

 

Olham : I didn't mean you buddy. Just some of your AI wingman. :)

 

Sigg : I'm with you. Better a silly report of running away at tree top level than a serious tombstone over your head. Even Richtofen admitted that he ran away from every fight he thought he couldn't win.

 

Thanks Hellshade, you have proven my point of using the trees as an escape route. When I wrote this in one of my pre-release Combat Report, I was questioned whether or not I was 'pumping' the game with false information, or dramatics. But it was the truth, you can get down to fly bewteen the trees and the AI will do the same. So it's a viable tactic if you are out numbered and on the run.

 

As Bruce Lee once put it... "in real, true combat, there are no rules and anything goes. I want to defeat you and I will using everything I know." Makes perfect sense.

[+Polovski 460]

Well the AI in the N11 are trying to avoid the ground more than you, so tends to skew the effect but yes otherwise it is a tactic.

[zoomzoom 2]

Speaking of that show Hellshade, they mentioned the DR1's ability to whip around and

reverse itself "rather disconcertingly" to quote one of the pilots. Anybody been able to do this with the DR1? I'm guessing with full left rudder and full right aileron to keep her level? In the show, and the first hand descriptions, it indicates a level flying "swapping of ends" with the DR1 that you were once chasing now suddenly facing you in an instant and spewing lead. Perhaps we need a bit more rudder authority onthe DR1 to make this maneuver possible, as it was clearly factual, and I can't seem to perform it as the Flight Model currently stands. I can get it about half way there, but thats it. Any ideas?

 

ZZ.

[Fortiesboy 3]

If I'm having to run for it I go as low as possible, in case of having to make a forced landing. I also figure that forcing them to chase me through trees has a chance of putting them off. It's exactly what I would do in real life. :yes:

 

Yes, perfectly sound tactics. It's what I would do as well. It's surprising how hard a time the enemy had finding you, without your labels on - lol

 

But, if i understand Polovski correctly, he is suggesting that the AI will fight more cleverly if they are engaged at height and not taken down near the ground.

Fair enough, but a lot of the times in QC it's the AI who go down to the ground- you follow and then find them swanning around aimlessly- particularly the Neuiports and the pfalz.

If Winder is working on this problem, all strength to his elbow, because, for QCers, it is a weakness of the sim.

[+Winder 32]

Yes, perfectly sound tactics. It's what I would do as well. It's surprising how hard a time the enemy had finding you, without your labels on - lol

 

But, if i understand Polovski correctly, he is suggesting that the AI will fight more cleverly if they are engaged at height and not taken down near the ground.

Fair enough, but a lot of the times in QC it's the AI who go down to the ground- you follow and then find them swanning around aimlessly- particularly the Neuiports and the pfalz.

If Winder is working on this problem, all strength to his elbow, because, for QCers, it is a weakness of the sim.

 

Well for an upcoming patch, hopefully 1.3, we do want to fix/improve the N11 as it is notably bad - we will look at the Pfalz too.

 

I certainly am not talking about reworking ANY AI code - not for this Phase at any rate - but simply to fix the bad uns.

But we will announce some OFF future plans soon.

 

In terms of QC try selecting Random AI - not all will go low and they should change tactics accordingly.

 

But in WW1 most Dogfights ended up on the deck in 10 mins or so - sometimes more sometimes less.

Listen to some of the interviews about the sheer chaos and results of dogfights - many were over as soon as they began:

They ended low with no ammo... damaged dead or crashed.... in minutes.

It was the nature of the craft they dive better than climb and the rest simply follows form.

 

HTH

 

Cheers

 

WM

[Hasse Wind 46]

For what it's worth, I've seen such strange low-level AI behaviour once when I got overwhelmed by a flight of Albatros D.II's in my campaign as a Sopwith Pup pilot. I was trying to flee from the battle, dove quickly down and the Albs followed me. Then I noticed they were performing strange up-and-down manoeuvres instead of shooting me down like they should have done. I think I could have shot them down easily (or at least damaged them), because the AI didn't seem to know at all what it was doing, but I decided to play it safe and ran away. This all happened at tree top level.

[+Winder 32]

For what it's worth, I've seen such strange low-level AI behaviour once when I got overwhelmed by a flight of Albatros D.II's in my campaign as a Sopwith Pup pilot. I was trying to flee from the battle, dove quickly down and the Albs followed me. Then I noticed they were performing strange up-and-down manoeuvres instead of shooting me down like they should have done. I think I could have shot them down easily (or at least damaged them), because the AI didn't seem to know at all what it was doing, but I decided to play it safe and ran away. This all happened at tree top level.

 

 

Yes we have noted DII as well (Pol and I were re discussing this today and we both mentioned the DII) so as I say we are looking into this but no promises on time.

 

Cheers

 

WM

[+Polovski 460]

Yes, perfectly sound tactics. It's what I would do as well. It's surprising how hard a time the enemy had finding you, without your labels on - lol

 

But, if i understand Polovski correctly, he is suggesting that the AI will fight more cleverly if they are engaged at height and not taken down near the ground.

Fair enough, but a lot of the times in QC it's the AI who go down to the ground- you follow and then find them swanning around aimlessly- particularly the Neuiports and the pfalz.

If Winder is working on this problem, all strength to his elbow, because, for QCers, it is a weakness of the sim.

 

Low powered craft or the older types struggle more, odd thing is I very hardly seen craft drop to the deck in QC. 1 or 2 maybe out of 4 or 5 enemy maybe. So I'd recommend Camel/DVII/Se5/later Albs as oponents, Dogfight, AI RANDOM, Normal situation. If you stay high then several of them should too from every QC in have done in that mode.

[Venator 0]

Speaking of that show Hellshade, they mentioned the DR1's ability to whip around and

reverse itself "rather disconcertingly" to quote one of the pilots. ... ZZ.

 

This is from an excellent article in Air & Space Magazine (and more on the DR1 as well).

It could be modded perhaps, and there was some interest when I first started a thread on the topic in OFF2 last year (was it that long ago?). But as far as I know, the DR1 acts like it has a fin AND rudder....

Edited March 23, 2009 by Venator

[Hellshade 110]

Hey Winder and Pol,

 

The fact that you are looking into it is good enough for me. I understand it's not an easy thing to change and frankly, any lesser dedicated Devs would not have taken the time to ship out such a polished product to begin with and definately wouldn't have worked so hard to patch it up as quickly and as professionally as OBD has. In a way, I think you guys are a victim of your own success. The quality of OFF BHaH is so exceptional that anything that isn't "perfect" stands out. Who else has 3,500 historically accurate paint schemes? Who else has a campaign with 12 complete "states" of the front spaning from 1915 - 1918? A Dynamic Weather Front Generator? The ability to pick a squadron and a date, knowing that it will be located in the right place, staffed with the correct pilots (as far as it is possible to do so), flying the correct planes that are painted with the right colors? Fly historically accurate missions and meet other aircraft in the air who are also on real missions against real targets? A devious and effective high and mid level AI that engages and fires only when it is reasonably close enough to score hits instead of just firing from 1,000 yards away? A huge number of options to configure, allowing the game to be tailored directly to any players personal likes and dislikes, from arcade mode up right up to hard core "Dead is Dead" purists?

 

Seriously, you have gotten so many things spot on, that the few things that aren't stick out a bit. To me, there are three important things that I keep in mind about stuff like this. 1st, is that you are AWARE there is a challenge. 2nd, is that you CARE enough to put it on the list of things you wish to improve and 3rd, that given your track record of shipping a polished product and supporting it actively, means that I know that you'll do your best within the limitations of the CFS3 engine and programming to make it better if at all possible. That's good enough for me.

 

I've already got far more than my money's worth out of OFF BHaH, and I appreciate that.

Hellshade

[Hellshade 110]

Speaking of that show Hellshade, they mentioned the DR1's ability to whip around and

reverse itself "rather disconcertingly" to quote one of the pilots. Anybody been able to do this with the DR1? I'm guessing with full left rudder and full right aileron to keep her level? In the show, and the first hand descriptions, it indicates a level flying "swapping of ends" with the DR1 that you were once chasing now suddenly facing you in an instant and spewing lead. Perhaps we need a bit more rudder authority onthe DR1 to make this maneuver possible, as it was clearly factual, and I can't seem to perform it as the Flight Model currently stands. I can get it about half way there, but thats it. Any ideas?

 

ZZ.

 

Try the Easy Player Flight Model mode? Maybe that will work. I know I will later tonight if I get the chance to fire up the sim. There's probably a better answer but it's worth a try.

 

Hellshade

[zoomzoom 2]

I can't fly anything but Realistic, its against my principles...., but Like Groucho Marks once said, "Those are my principles, if you don't like them, I have others!"

 

Seriously though, my intent is not to gripe, just bring up a possible item for a future upgrade of some kind. I am fully thrilled with OFF and have 0 complaints.....other than the fact my computer SUCKS and I can't amp up the details much. Gotta buy some RAM. Thats my problem...not the sim. All I'm saying is it would be neat if possible to tweak the DR1 to handle more like this. The dev's may not have time, or due to constraints in the game engine it may not be possible....thats cool.

 

ZZ.