Thoughts about OFF sales.

[OvS 8]

The OFF team will get their sales. It will just not come all in one short period like the big names.

 

Just keep making improvements, fixes, content, and new stuff. Keep the customers engaged and always review customers comments and recommendations.

 

The sales will come weekly over the years if you stick to your basic beliefs (historic accuracy, realisism, and fun).

 

A publishers is for a new game and requires a very big cut of the pie.

 

We have continually had BOBII weekly sales since 2005 when then game was published. The weekly sales increased with the download version.

 

I recommend a long term out look for OFF and getting the correct price.

 

Exactly! You said it better than I ever could. :)

[OvS 8]

See post #14 of this thread.

BTW Computer Pilot Magazine did not reply to my e-mail

 

Tony

 

And the worst part is, Phase 3 completely blows away Phase 2... it's a whole new game!

 

Tony, PM me and maybe you could point me in the right direction to talk to someone over there?

 

Thanks,

 

OvS

[+Polovski 460]

We did contact several magazines previously.. we haven't done nothing on this as everyone seems to think but we carry on trying..

[godzilla1985 0]

Okay I'll play devils advocate and say probably what everyone is thinking but won't say, and I know I'm new to the BHaH forums so please don't flame me too hard for this. Sales for BHaH could see a huge up swing if one major thing happens, and that one major thing is if RoF fails to deliver on the hype. I say this because this was one thing that kept me from buying BHaH until recently. I followed BHaH for years and couldn't wait for the release. I would constantly watch the BHaH website for each new video releaase and just would be awe struck by what I was seeing, but just when Pol and company was ready here came RoF. It honestly believed that RoF had done what I didn't think could be done and that was to one up what BHaH was offering. But just like anything the devil is in the details and as RoF progressed I didn't like what I was seeing. The always on connection requirement, only two flyables to start with, a 1917 only start date, a poor SP aspect and campaign and no reassurances from the Devs that RoF will be playable if the servers go belly up or become a pay to play MMORPG finally convinced me BHaH was the only true modern all incompassing WWI flight sim. I think there are a lot more guys like me out there, but unlike me are still sitting on the fence so to speak when it comes down to if they will buy BHaH or RoF. Since none of us have a crystal ball it's anyone guess how this story will end but for me I feel I made the right choice in going with BHaH and my gut feeling is BHaH is going to do very well here in the near future.

Edited May 2, 2009 by godzilla1985

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Okay I'll play devils advocate and say probably what everyone is thinking but won't say, and I know I'm new to the BHaH forums so please don't flame me too hard for this. Sales for BHaH could see a huge up swing if one major thing happens, and that one major thing is if RoF fails to deliver on the hype. I say this because this was one thing that kept me from buying BHaH until recently. I followed BHaH for years and couldn't wait for the release. I would constantly watch the BHaH website for each new video releaase and just would be awe struck by what I was seeing, but just when Pol and company was ready here came RoF. It honestly believed that RoF had done what I didn't think could be done and that was to one up what BHaH was offering. But just like anything the devil is in the details and as RoF progressed I didn't like what I was seeing. The always on connection requirement, only two flyables to start with, a 1917 only start date, a poor SP aspect and campaign and no reassurances from the Devs that RoF will be playable if the servers go belly up or become a pay to play MMORPG finally convinced me BHaH was the only true modern all incompassing WWI flight sim. I think there are a lot more guys like me out there, but unlike me are still sitting on the fence so to speak when it comes down to if they will buy BHaH or RoF. Since none of us have a crystal ball it's anyone guess how this story will end but for me I feel I made the right choice in going with BHaH and my gut feeling is BHaH is going to do very well here in the near future.

 

A very valid point.

 

I too was very excited at the prospect of ROF (Though I always knew I would get BHaH anyhow)

 

Some people may well be sitting on the fence, and no doubt time will tell.

 

All I do know, is those who are awaiting ROF without having played OFF, may well find that they have waited too long, for too little (IMHO of course)

[tttiger 0]

A very valid point.

 

I too was very excited at the prospect of ROF (Though I always knew I would get BHaH anyhow)

 

Some people may well be sitting on the fence, and no doubt time will tell.

 

All I do know, is those who are awaiting ROF without having played OFF, may well find that they have waited too long, for too little (IMHO of course)

 

 

UK Widowmaker (and Godzilla),

 

What you don't get is the folks on the ROF forums are a whole different crowd from OFF players.

 

The ones awaiting ROF are primarily on-line players. I know lots of them from my on-line years in the past. They have no interest in single player as in OFF.

 

They wouldn't buy OFF if it was the only game in town.

 

That's not their fault. It's OFF's fault for tying itself to the truly awful CFS3, which has a very minimal and very unreliable online ability.

 

Happily for me, I like both.

 

Sorry Godzilla.

 

Nice try but no cigar.

 

I'm starting to get it from OvS's posts that the devs really don't want to sell lots of copies and this is just a hobby for them.

 

That being the case, I wouldn't anguish too much about their weak sales because they sure aren't losing any sleep over it.

 

It's a great product, Those of us here all enjoy it.

 

But they just aren't interested (really) in selling it.

 

They want to keep it a "cottage industry."

 

Terrific modders but babes in the woods in the business world.

 

T

Edited May 2, 2009 by tttiger

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

UK Widowmaker (and Godzilla),

 

What you don't get is the folks on the ROF forums are a whole different crowd from OFF players.

 

The ones awaiting ROF are primarily on-line players. I know lots of them from my on-line years in the past. They have no interest in single player as in OFF.

 

They wouldn't buy OFF if it was the only game in town.

 

That's not their fault. It's OFF's fault for tying itself to the truly awful CFS3, which has a very minimal and very unreliable online ability.

 

Simulator 'people' have always been anally retentive from what I have seen. (the Ubi-forums were full of people who would fall on you like starving vultures if you dared to make a negative comment about their beloved sim, and those people are singularly the reason I went off that particular Sim

 

Personally, I think CFS3 was a good simulator to use for OFF (hell, I am no fan of vanilla CFS3..I've made that quite clear in previous posts)...But without having a dedicated engine, there are no other simulators around that I can think of, that would have allowed such a diverse variety of Scenery etc to play with, and although I like MP.... It isn't what flying is all about for me.

 

CFS3 is poor for multiplayer yes..we can all agree on that..... and it looks like ROF is going to be poor for Singleplayer. (for reasons that have been gone over time and again)

[godzilla1985 0]

UK Widowmaker (and Godzilla),

 

What you don't get is the folks on the ROF forums are a whole different crowd from OFF players.

 

The ones awaiting ROF are primarily on-line players. I know lots of them from my on-line years in the past. They have no interest in single player as in OFF.

 

They wouldn't buy OFF if it was the only game in town.

 

That's not their fault. It's OFF's fault for tying itself to the truly awful CFS3, which has a very minimal and very unreliable online ability.

 

Happily for me, I like both.

 

Sorry Godzilla.

 

Nice try but no cigar.

 

I'm starting to get it from OvS's posts that the devs really don't want to sell lots of copies and this is just a hobby for them.

 

That being the case, I wouldn't anguish too much about their weak sales because they sure aren't losing any sleep over it.

 

It's a great product, Those of us here all enjoy it.

 

But they just aren't interested (really) in selling it.

 

They want to keep it a "cottage industry."

 

Terrific modders but babes in the woods in the business world.

 

T

 

With all due respect tttiger if the polls that are being run at many forums (unscientific granted) and which the RoF developers blog does not have (or allow ) is any kind of a yardstick the numbers don't support your view that the only people who would buy or are interested in RoF is the MP'ers only club. The numbers support SP and SP/MP, with SP being the largest group and the MP only group being almost a non factor. My main point was if the SP is a gutted shell or really bad in RoF and some game requirements are not eventually changed then it will probably be to BHaH's good fortune, and to add on another aspect if BHaH could have got released six months to a year before the RoF games videos really started the push, BHaH sells would have been much better probably reguardless of BHaH using CFS3 as it's engine. As luck would have it timing for BHaH release couldn't have been probably worse, it's nobodys fault, sometimes things just happen that way. These fence sitters I was talking about are the ones waiting to see which sim gives them what they want in a SP WWI flight simulator BHaH or RoF. I had CFS3 when it first came out so I know the game very well, it was an unplayable mess upon release. But after having purchased BHaH and playing it I can honestly say concerning the SP aspect alone there is so little left to CFS3 in BHaH that if the devs could have released BHaH on one disk (not requiring the CFS3 disk) and P1 and P2 never happened, not many people would have guessed it was the CFS3 engine, I know I wouldn't have. I'm not spouting the devs mantra here, this is my personal experiance with BHaH. As for the babe in the woods comment this maybe true but I kind of like it, if you have a problem with BHaH your more then likely to have one of the devs jump in and try to help you out, try that at 1C and see if Oleg answers you, sometimes being small is a strength not a weakness.

[+matt milne 5]

just because you throw an olympic athlete in a pool, doesn't mean they'll swim. Once you've thrown them in, you actually have to stand there and make sure they get where they're going.

I'd say that 95% of film scoring involves standing over the director, making sure they edit the film, so you have something to score (and you're supposed to work for them, not the other way around, but it's the only way to make sure there's a great film at the end of it all).

 

Off's doing really really great, and everybody worked real hard to get it where it is, all i'm saying is there are a few cylinders that should be being fired on to get over the last hill.

 

consequently i gotta again side with ttigger on most of that. those of us who do this cause we've got nothing better to do, that's fine, but those of us who want to take it somewhere bigger and faster should be able to do that too.

 

to me there is no difference between a hobby and a job, just those who do something well, and those who don't do at all. family and all the other mundane excuses are fine, but it's nothing compared to what could be done. and i for one ain't interested in just producing a generation that uses resources and poisons the planet, i would like to do something a little bit more meaningful.

 

I hate to be a negative nellie, but 3 reviews in 4 months is what i'm looking at.

 

there's a lot more to it post-release, is all i'm saying.

[godzilla1985 0]

just because you throw an olympic athlete in a pool, doesn't mean they'll swim. Once you've thrown them in, you actually have to stand there and make sure they get where they're going.

I'd say that 95% of film scoring involves standing over the director, making sure they edit the film, so you have something to score (and you're supposed to work for them, not the other way around, but it's the only way to make sure there's a great film at the end of it all).

 

Off's doing really really great, and everybody worked real hard to get it where it is, all i'm saying is there are a few cylinders that should be being fired on to get over the last hill.

 

consequently i gotta again side with ttigger on most of that. those of us who do this cause we've got nothing better to do, that's fine, but those of us who want to take it somewhere bigger and faster should be able to do that too.

 

to me there is no difference between a hobby and a job, just those who do something well, and those who don't do at all. family and all the other mundane excuses are fine, but it's nothing compared to what could be done. and i for one ain't interested in just producing a generation that uses resources and poisons the planet, i would like to do something a little bit more meaningful.

 

I hate to be a negative nellie, but 3 reviews in 4 months is what i'm looking at.

 

there's a lot more to it post-release, is all i'm saying.

I understand what your saying Matt, but honestly mostly all eyes are on RoF right now that can't be helped and is beyond the devs control. Like I said the timing of BHaH release couldn't have been worse and trying to get peoples attention on BHaH right now is gonna be a hard sale, but that doesn't mean BHaH is a dead horse by any means. BHaH is a know commodity now and is getting better everyday thanks to the hard work of the devs, RoF on the other hand isn't a known commodity yet and while being innovative there are a lot of pitfalls and mountains for RoF to navigate and climb and any major problems could adversely effect RoF. Neoqb set the bar and hype real high for this one and anything less then a homerun could prove very bad indeed. This kind of reminds me of when B-17 TM8th was released without the much antisipated MP feature, lots of players didn't buy it because of no MP but the game did survive. The key to it's survival was it did have solid SP mode and a good SP campaign and while not attaining the status it could have with the MP promised it didn't do too bad and is still around and played today. Now RoF on the other hand seems to be banking hard on the MP aspect and if the SP and SP campaign mode is weak or non existant thats going to leave a lot of players out in the cold and I think a lot of people who passed on BHaH the first time are going to take another serious look at BHaH. So it's going to be a wait and see thing for now but the BHaH devs have to be ready to pounce if events turn in thier favor and take the gloves off and go for the brass ring (or the jugular ).

[OvS 8]

Let me just add this, and really, and this point, it's getting old hat now..

 

We're now 8 guys... down 2 from 10. We accomplished something that many have failed: that is, making a working, well-designed, accurate and life-like WWI sim. For years prior to BHaH it was attempted, and failed over and over again. It is an ENORMOUS task that unless you are on a Dev team building it, you'll never really know. I don't need to express the details involved, but I can tell you, it's a long list that took so long because that's how long it takes. This isn't a WWII arena style FPS... this is a living, breathing environment filled to the rim with pilots that actually 'live' in the game... not just random AI guys that are tragets for you to shoot.

 

As far as selling, we did what we thought was the best descision based on several emails and discussions we had over many months. We did what we thought best for the team, and for the users. Yes, we wanted to see it on the shelves, and make a bazillion dollars each, retire... etc... but reality set in and we realized that it's a mod, for an otherwise hated, and old WWII game. Did it stop us, hell no, but we knew from the start that selling it over the shelves would be a problem as you still needed CFS3 to play it.

 

So we moved on, and we decided that for us, this was the best way... KISS... Keep It Small and Simple. A nice cottage instead of an over-bearing mansion. Remember, we also have to support it. We needed it all.. support email, time, website, help... etc.. all coming from now 8 guys spread all over the entire world... never once sitting next to one another.... that alone is a story to write about!!

 

So to end this conversation, yes, it would be nice to have a larger piece of the game market, but WWI sims are a small niche, with thankfully a very dedicated fan base. So if this is what it is, it's good, and we're thankful for it. We can't ask for more. Let's see what happens in another year... most PC games are dead and gone in 6 months... if BHaH lasts a year... we really beat the odds. I think it will, and I think it'll be around a lot longer than that.

 

OvS

[OvS 8]

I'm starting to get it from OvS's posts that the devs really don't want to sell lots of copies and this is just a hobby for them.

 

That being the case, I wouldn't anguish too much about their weak sales because they sure aren't losing any sleep over it.

 

It's a great product, Those of us here all enjoy it.

 

But they just aren't interested (really) in selling it.

 

They want to keep it a "cottage industry."

 

Terrific modders but babes in the woods in the business world.

 

I'd like to just answer this real quick...

 

WM originally started this project and while it took it's course, he ran the gambit of guys that jumped in, and jumped out. Some promised the world, and left him with nothing. So it was already an uphill battle for him to get it off the ground, but he hung in there and kept going. As time went on (years), we weeded down to only 10 and we worked at a feverish pace. We hoped it would be something that would sell, our intention was to do that, but also allow us to have lives as well. You see, we are all married, have families, jobs, etc, some of us have jobs that take us away from home, and one of us is still in school. So those aspects were important to our survival as well, maybe not to some people in this thread, but it was to us. We had to make this project worthwhile but not upset our home lives.

 

We did that, and we are all happy with the results...maybe not ecstatic, but happy. Heck, if it's a cottage industry, really, it's our choice, and no one should be concerned about it other than us. A few good reviews is all it takes to spark sales, and really, it's all we need.

 

We're not loosing sleep over it, because none of us have gotten divorced over it, none of us have lost jobs over it, and we work well with each other and support one-another... like gentlemen do. So to us, no matter where this goes, we're successful... be it as a hobby, or a business.

 

And on a personal note... I am proud to say I now have 10 friends all over the world that I am happy to have met and spent many hours with by email, phone, skype... etc. I personally could not ask for more than that. I am happy... money can't buy that.

 

OvS

[rabu 9]

I'd like to just answer this real quick...

 

WM originally started this project and while it took it's course, he ran the gambit of guys that jumped in, and jumped out. Some promised the world, and left him with nothing. So it was already an uphill battle for him to get it off the ground, but he hung in there and kept going. As time went on (years), we weeded down to only 10 and we worked at a feverish pace. We hoped it would be something that would sell, our intention was to do that, but also allow us to have lives as well. You see, we are all married, have families, jobs, etc, some of us have jobs that take us away from home, and one of us is still in school. So those aspects were important to our survival as well, maybe not to some people in this thread, but it was to us. We had to make this project worthwhile but not upset our home lives.

 

We did that, and we are all happy with the results...maybe not ecstatic, but happy. Heck, if it's a cottage industry, really, it's our choice, and no one should be concerned about it other than us. A few good reviews is all it takes to spark sales, and really, it's all we need.

 

We're not loosing sleep over it, because none of us have gotten divorced over it, none of us have lost jobs over it, and we work well with each other and support one-another... like gentlemen do. So to us, no matter where this goes, we're successful... be it as a hobby, or a business.

 

And on a personal note... I am proud to say I now have 10 friends all over the world that I am happy to have met and spent many hours with by email, phone, skype... etc. I personally could not ask for more than that. I am happy... money can't buy that.

 

OvS

 

Thanks, "Otto," very well said.

Edited May 3, 2009 by rabu

[+matt milne 5]

oh no you don't. If you think i'm gonna sit there and watch you keep the worlds greatest car locked up in the back garage you built it in, think again. I'm not saying go to ford and get a deal and i'm not saying go to some salesman and get a deal. I'm saying take it to a manufacturing expert. will wright for example has just left ea, an artist and great guy to show it to. bill gates again an artist and somebody interested in flight simulators. There are many many other individuals who would be interested in off if we took it to them.

 

It's not a cottage or other form of industry, it's a collection of individuals. and how far their projects go depends on where they take them. I would like cinderella to go to the ball, the rest of you who'd like her to stay and do the odd chore for her ugly sisters don't need to do that if you don't want to, but stop pretending that this isn't the case. you guys have known about this for at least two years.

 

pretending that off bhah is less than it is and so should be treated like every other insignificant fan project, is not i'd say the best strategy.

 

come on guys one of you besides me has to be interested in taking it where it needs to go, we can be with off, and our friends can be with their wife and kids.

[Bratushka 0]

OK, here's a thought: Why doesn't somebody associated with OFF open an eBay store or eBay account to sell OFF? It's cheap and it's easy to get set up! You could even create a seller ID that was related to what is used now. eBay now requires PayPal payments for almost everything, so no checks, cash, money orders to handle. PayPal is world-wide, does currency conversions, allows use of all major credit cards, issues single use credit card numbers for those paranoid about providing their actual numbers on line, and offers buyer protection. Postage can be calculated and the labels printed from their site. Monies go into an interest bearing account and can be transferred to a bank on-line. It's world-wide exposure for a pittance! It's probably the #1 place people go to find a copy of CFS3, anyway. That's where I got mine. If, at some point, this generates enough interest and sales of the product, there's a ready made vehicle to add other things likes posters, T-shirts, hats, etc. I don't know what the long range business plan is for you folks, but you damn sure deserve some measure of success in the monetary sense for what you've created. The facts are there are few WWI sims out there and few of those are worth a crap. The trend in PC gaming is realism, realistic physics models, super graphics, immersion, and everything else you offer in spades! if you try it for a few months and it doesn't create any extra sales, close it. The investment will have been very small.

 

If someone is interested there are ebay fee calculators to be found a-plenty. I popped in $49.99 cost, plus $9 S/H and the fees came out to $2.06 for eBay and $2.01 for PayPal's cut.

[cptroyce 0]

I agree with Matt's enthusiasm for OFF and wider exposure; and certainly OvS can't make it any plainer regarding the Dev's point of view. Ttttiger's telling you like it is, in the business of distributing creative content.

 

Some suggerstions:

 

someone/group of investors with Matt's desires and interest..try and buy the rights from Winder/Pol & Co. (if they'd sell) and run with the investment and risk.

 

Assuming the Devs want to, and haven't already explored the possibility, get MS to allow whatever is used from CFS3 code or engine. Pay a royalty %, or perhaps a distribution deal if they are intersted and see a great enough potential for the effort.

 

IMHO, unfortunately, as long as OFF is tied to CFS3 as a necessary component for operation, then it can never go anywhere above an enhanced hobby/addon etc. It's like buying a beautiful car, that will perform wonderfully, "Oh..but you need the engine from XYZ to drive it..and we have nothing to do with them". Unfortunately one won't be selling very many cars.

 

If someone came to me with a product, and I loved it and wanted to invest capital, however, I had to have someone elses product (not part of the deal at all) to utilize it, no matter what, I'd pass.

 

That being said..has anyone contacted MS to see if they would take a fee/royalty or some type of compensation for letting OFF use what it CFS technically provides?

 

Can't really see why they should object..CFS3 is no longer viable in the simming sector as a stand alone product. And I thought I read somewhere that MS is abandoning the simming portion of their business in any case.

 

FWIW, just my thoughts..

 

Regards,

Royce

Edited May 3, 2009 by cptroyce

[+Polovski 460]

Guys we have contacted MS before more than once, as I say please don't think we have done nothing here, we've been thinking and working on this for a few years now please give us some credit.

 

Matt best to discuss stuff internally really we are not just sitting back and relaxing, geeze I wish, it would certainly have let me not put my personal life "on hold" for this for the last few years. This last week is the first real break myself and WM have had in years, doing almost no OFF!

 

We do want to reach more etc, and are still pushing. We have only VERY recently actually completed OFF with the last patch - so now wow we have some time maybe. We can plan and make addons and we can push a solid "product". We have been working every day FLAT OUT on making that happen over the last few years, making and testing patches. As OvS says we are doing this in our spare time (with work and families etc) and yes some of our families have suffered.

 

I think we've covered all the angles here, we don't need any more comments on it to be honest.... my last words on this for now.