How simple is "simplified"?

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Hi Guys

 

I've long ignored Thirdwire's sims (shame on me I guess) for what was supposed to be "simplified" Air/Air, Air/Ground radar and other jet avionics. Instead I flew LOMAC for my modern sim needs.

 

Now I stumbled across First Eagles on the lookout for a WW1 sim, and obviously avionics are not a problem there. I like that game a lot (a steal at 20 bucks), in general I really like the underlying engine, it obviously has nice potential for generating quick single player missions as well as ground/air campaign with moving frontline and so on. I can now imagine this engine would be fun in a modern jet sim as well.

 

Now I guess the main question is - what do I really have to expect in terms of system modeling and avionics from Thirdwire's modern sims (I'm particularly looking at SF2:Europe). Is there an all-seeing, all knowing radar on hard mode which simple gives me all targets and full situational awareness, or does it have range limit and jamming modeled? Is the handling of the Maverick seekers on the A-10 reasonable done? (i.e., you actually have to slew and look for ground targets instead of pressing magic "target next" button).

 

Do the modern setting sims (like SF2:Europe) also simulate ground units, supply levels and stuff in the campaign, so you get what feels like a real ground war?

 

I guess flying the Harrier or Hunter, lack of radar details won't be my main problem. Does the Harrier do proper V/STOL or is it like the Microsoft Flightsimulator hacks using "oversized" flaps? I really could love a Harrier full of dumb iron with a proper flight model - is there a CCIP bomb targeting mode?

 

I've also seen addon helicopters - does that mean the engine can model helo flight? Also looking for a Tornado or Strike Eagle addon that works well - are there such things? The quality of user mods for FE varies a lot (as usual with these things).

 

I guess if I can get my head around some of these questions, SF2:Europe looks like a really nice deal. Please help me understand better what I can expect from that sim so maybe I can join your ranks here flying this.

 

Oh, and final point: I absolutely love the fact that there is no activation, logon or similar DRM/CP restrictions on these games. I want to "own" my bought games, and Thirdwire is excellent to it's customers it seems as they do not include any headache for legit buyers.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Helmut_AUT

[+Brain32 265]

Is there an all-seeing, all knowing radar on hard mode which simple gives me all targets and full situational awareness, or does it have range limit and jamming modeled?

 

Range limit, and jamming are modeled, also RCS, radar, rwr and jammer frequencies and a bunch of other stuff, groun radar though might be a bit simplified, I don't know what all those planes can do with their ground radars...

 

 

Is the handling of the Maverick seekers on the A-10 reasonable done? (i.e., you actually have to slew and look for ground targets instead of pressing magic "target next" button).

Nope, magic "target next" button is the way to do it, but you have to fire it inside of the engagement envelope as all missiles and especially important for GBU's and the like...

 

Do the modern setting sims (like SF2:Europe) also simulate ground units, supply levels and stuff in the campaign, so you get what feels like a real ground war?

Yes whole bunch of stuff that goes boom on the ground is in, supply is relevant and present...

 

I guess flying the Harrier or Hunter, lack of radar details won't be my main problem. Does the Harrier do proper V/STOL or is it like the Microsoft Flightsimulator hacks using "oversized" flaps? I really could love a Harrier full of dumb iron with a proper flight model - is there a CCIP bomb targeting mode?

Harrier uses thrust vectoring and CCIP is present. V/STOL capatibilities are dependent upon the load, fully loaded Harrier will not VTOL...

 

I've also seen addon helicopters - does that mean the engine can model helo flight?

Well yes and no, this engine is not intended for helicopters but some handy modders made a few fly like that, so far Mi-8 mod is apsolutely the best in that respect - IMO

 

Also looking for a Tornado or Strike Eagle addon that works well - are there such things?

Tornado is present in pretty much all variations and very nicely done, we have F-15E but without proper cockpit - for now ;)

[Caesar 305]

In Hard mode, the radar is far from all-seeing; the aircraft's data.ini indicates its scan, blind spots, azimuth, etc. but you won't be able to do things like switch from a 4-bar to an 8-bar scan, or change how far up or down it looks in game.

 

Radars are also not uniform - an F-4's radar is going to tell you that something is out there, take a while to lock it up at range, and give you otherwise very little information on the target. An F-14 or F-15's radar can tell you a lot more by using Track While Scan, and are quite a bit faster to lock the target at range. Radar ranges are also dictated by the aircraft's Avionics.ini to be accurate - you might get into an F-16 and be able to scan 80mi, but an F-8 is limited to 10mi (IIRC), while an F-14 will see up to 200, and there are different range settings so you won't always be seeing 200 or 80 or whatever miles.

 

Jamming is modeled, but burnthrough is a bit different. In other words if an aircraft is jamming you, you have to get within a certain range to lock it up depending on your radar's strength vs. jammer strength, rather than just focusing the beam on it.

 

The radars/missiles also can be beamed, and the enemy will try to do so every chance it gets to make you waste your Sparrows.

 

Campaigns are dynamic, and you will end up having to engage ground targets, if you pick a plane capable of doing so, and supply levels are part of the campaigns.

 

Not sure how the Harrier works, but IIRC, it does use the thrust vectoring control. Heloes, no idea because I hear reports of them working and not working.

 

There are literally hundreds of addon aircraft, including the Tornado and the Strike Eagle, which work well and have good FMs, just check the downloads section - not all aircraft have been updated to the SF2 standard, however, so if they're not out yet, you can either make the changes to make them work yourself, found in the knowledge base, or wait till someone gets around to them.

 

Hope this helps!

[FastCargo 412]

Is there an all-seeing, all knowing radar on hard mode which simple gives me all targets and full situational awareness, or does it have range limit and jamming modeled?

 

In full hard mode, there are limits on the azimuth and elevation of the radar. In addition, radars model limited range, power, and frequency bands. Calculated RCS of the target come into play, and the AI will attempt to defeat shots taken with manuver, expendables, and ECM. Also, search, TWS, STT, Boresight, and ground mapping are all modeled. You cannot adjust the 'bars' or azimuth manually however.

 

Is the handling of the Maverick seekers on the A-10 reasonable done? (i.e., you actually have to slew and look for ground targets instead of pressing magic "target next" button).

 

Nope, magic target next button.

 

Do the modern setting sims (like SF2:Europe) also simulate ground units, supply levels and stuff in the campaign, so you get what feels like a real ground war?

 

Yes, includes supply lines, resupply, multiple aircraft taskings, etc. However, it will feel a bit more 'sterile' than something like Falcon 4 AF. In addition, mission planning for your flight is relatively limited compared to something like Falcon.

 

Does the Harrier do proper V/STOL or is it like the Microsoft Flightsimulator hacks using "oversized" flaps? I really could love a Harrier full of dumb iron with a proper flight model - is there a CCIP bomb targeting mode?

 

Proper S/VTOL, including proper limitations (ie don't try to VTOL with a full load...ain't going to happen). Yes, modern aircraft support CCIP.

 

I've also seen addon helicopters - does that mean the engine can model helo flight?

 

Not per se. However, there are a few models that do helo flight very well, but if you're expecting Black Shark...ain't going to happen.

 

Also looking for a Tornado or Strike Eagle addon that works well - are there such things?

 

Both exist. However, TF and 'radar patching' isn't modeled in the sim, but laser pods and LGB delivery are. There are several models of the Tornado available, the Strike Eagle is currently undergoing an upgrade (including a proper cockpit).

 

Oh, and final point: I absolutely love the fact that there is no activation, logon or similar DRM/CP restrictions on these games. I want to "own" my bought games, and Thirdwire is excellent to it's customers it seems as they do not include any headache for legit buyers.

 

Yep, nice to easily make backups or have multiple mods with one install and easily transferable (Generation 1 sims I could run off a memory stick).

 

FC

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Wow, thanks for the quick and fast replies. Bit of a bummer about the "target next" thing - which I guess also applies to Laser Designator Pods? - but good to hear the Harrier is modelled nicely, that and the A-10 could end up being my rides of choice. Is there actual a keymap or axis map for turning the nozzles?

 

Any known bugs/problems with SF2 over SF1 - I think SF1 is also supposed to run on Vista with the Oct. 2008 patch.

 

Kowalski, you say Gen.1 sims you could run off a memory stick. I hope for Gen.2 it's still possible to simple copy & paste the game directory to a different system when you upgrade or reinstall?

 

Thanks all, looks like I'll buy tomorrow when I have a proper download connection. This and First Eagles will likely replace LOMAC and IL-2 for me - somehow those games, while nice in details, just don't cut it for me anymore.

 

Oh, last favor I'm asking: Anyone knows where I can find a screenshot of the Harrier cockpit and maybe a Tornado one? That's really the two birds I wanted to fly for years in a sim.

[FastCargo 412]

Wow, thanks for the quick and fast replies. Bit of a bummer about the "target next" thing - which I guess also applies to Laser Designator Pods? - but good to hear the Harrier is modelled nicely, that and the A-10 could end up being my rides of choice.

 

Yes, the same thing applies to laser pods...however, the laser pod (and LGBs in general) though they have the magic 'next target' button, take time to line up for a valid drop. In other words, you can't just hit 'next target' and drop immediately. The LGB takes some time to aquire, and the 'basket' has to be valid to get a hit.

 

Is there actual a keymap or axis map for turning the nozzles?

 

Yep, there is a separate Thrust Vector control...can be done either by keyboard or a ranged axis on the control of your choice.

 

Any known bugs/problems with SF2 over SF1 - I think SF1 is also supposed to run on Vista with the Oct. 2008 patch.

 

Both can run on Vista just fine. SF2 just has additional features and has made adding mods easier than ever.

 

Kowalski, you say Gen.1 sims you could run off a memory stick. I hope for Gen.2 it's still possible to simple copy & paste the game directory to a different system when you upgrade or reinstall?

 

Yes, for the most part it's still just as easy. There are a few additional things to do because now any mods are kept completely seperate from the main ThirdWire install. But more or less, it's just as flexible.

 

Oh, last favor I'm asking: Anyone knows where I can find a screenshot of the Harrier cockpit and maybe a Tornado one? That's really the two birds I wanted to fly for years in a sim.

 

I'm sure someone here can hook you up pretty quickly. I haven't had the chance to take a shot yet in those aircraft.

 

FC

[Gr.Viper 131]

There's always another way to target Mavericks. Point camera at target area, zoom in, press "lock target in centre of screen". Works unviersally for all EO and laser weapons. Actually a nice method to target tanks with TIR - you look at them, lock them and then the seeker focuses on them (it's not instant in the latest game versions).

 

Is there actual a keymap or axis map for turning the nozzles?

Any 2 keys of +/- or a joystick axis.

 

Harrier pit

That's GR.3

[Caesar 305]

 

Bobrock's AV-8B+ Harrier II pit

 

 

HUD in A/A mode

[+Stary 2,427]

Stock Harrier GR.1A cockpit from SF2 Europe:

 

 

 

edit: Gr.Viper was faster, all SF2E Harrier variants (GR.1, GR.1A and GR.3) use the same pit I think

Edited July 19, 2009 by Stary

[Helmut_AUT 0]

You guys are awesome for the fast help and even screenshots. I really like that pit, also the moving map seems to work. Guess it's a safe investment, I can live with the simplifications highlighted here.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Beware, you're about to discover the joy of a head-on guns-only attack. 37-mm, not Spandau

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Isn't the Harrier's Twin Aden a 30mm?

 

BTW, does the game model SAMs (Surface to Air Missiles), and countermeasures for aircraft - or just triple AAA?

[Fubar512 1,350]

BTW, does the game model SAMs (Surface to Air Missiles), and countermeasures for aircraft - or just triple AAA?

 

 

We have everything from SA-2s through SA-19s, and even an entire Nike Hercules missile site. The series models both passive and active systems (flares, chaff, low-observable technology), to the point that one can assign frequency limits to the various radars and jammers, For example, a given SAM radar can have its search, track, and missile uplink frequencies modeled. AAA varies from 7.62 mm on up to 130 MM, and can be radar-directed.

[Gr.Viper 131]

Isn't the Harrier's Twin Aden a 30mm?

Yes, but it is the 37mm on MiG-17 that tends to make missions very lively.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Yes, but it is the 37mm on MiG-17 that tends to make missions very lively.

 

Slow-firing, but guaranteed to result in a one-shot kill if (and when) it hits.

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Aye, you meant on the receiving end ;)

 

This game really sounds a lot more complex than it originally got credit for. I have to say though I'm not big into modded installs (tend to break the "polish" of the overal game IMHO) so I hope most of the stuff is included in the original install.

 

Going to buy now, another convert ;)

[FastCargo 412]

Well, if not, you'll find certain 'all in one' mods that are just as polished as a payware release, but add much more atmosphere to the basic sim.

 

FC

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Just now downloading - as far as mods go, I mean no disrespect to the hard-working modders, it's just you suddenly have an aircraft for single missions you can't fly in the campaign, or where a certain instrument doesn't work, or where the cockpit texture resolution seems lower compared to some defaults... and for the "all in ones" at least in First Eagles I never managed to find all aircraft and weapons needed.

 

I'll likely drop in a few things though.

[jomni 6]

Now I guess the main question is - what do I really have to expect in terms of system modeling and avionics from Thirdwire's modern sims (I'm particularly looking at SF2:Europe). Is there an all-seeing, all knowing radar on hard mode which simple gives me all targets and full situational awareness, or does it have range limit and jamming modeled? Is the handling of the Maverick seekers on the A-10 reasonable done? (i.e., you actually have to slew and look for ground targets instead of pressing magic "target next" button).

 

In hard settings... the capabilites of the plane, weapons, and radar is quite realistic (we get a lot people asking how to use the sparrow properly in this forums). What is simplified is the operation.

 

Hate to tell you the bad news... but targeting a ground target using EO or laser guidance, you just press the magic 'E' button to cycle targets (but it's not "all-knowing" and can only target objects in your field of view). In more complex sims, you need to manually scan the horizon / radar and lock the target yourself as you have indicated. Same thing with air targets ('Home').

 

If you ask me this simplification makes the game more fun as you concentrate on the combat tactics and not get overwhemed by operating the systems.

Do the modern setting sims (like SF2:Europe) also simulate ground units, supply

levels and stuff in the campaign, so you get what feels like a real ground war?

 

Yes, you can run out of smart bombs ;D. Ground units also don't go on offensives if they have low supply. But SF2 is more challenging in terms of supply if you play Mercenaries (where you have to buy each and every missile, bomb, and replacement planes you take to the field).

 

I guess flying the Harrier or Hunter, lack of radar details won't be my main problem. Does the Harrier do proper V/STOL or is it like the Microsoft Flightsimulator hacks using "oversized" flaps? I really could love a Harrier full of dumb iron with a proper flight model - is there a CCIP bomb targeting mode?

 

Harriers do proper V/STOL with thrust vectoring. But it's quite tricky to do when fully loaded with bombs. There is CCIP for more modern planes.

 

I've also seen addon helicopters - does that mean the engine can model helo flight? Also looking for a Tornado or Strike Eagle addon that works well - are there such things? The quality of user mods for FE varies a lot (as usual with these things).

 

Helicopters use "cheated" flight models. AI helicopters will take off as per normal planes (roll along the runway).

 

We have Tornados and Strike Eagles. Just not upgraded to SF2 standards at the moment.

 

Finally, I prefer stock than 3rd party anytime. But adding stuff is fun and addictive.

Edited July 20, 2009 by jomni

[Gr.Viper 131]

or where the cockpit texture resolution seems lower compared to some defaults...

...or one plane is an uber-ultra-high-res model while the one flying next to it is a simpler model designed for older PCs and game engine. Spoils the atmosphere sometimes, doesn't it. The very reason I mostly fly stock setup - they all look more or less the same. Even Soviets are getting a gradual facelift in the remakes.

[Slartibartfast 153]

Helmut_AUT

 

Two of the Mods I would definitely advise getting are Nato Fighters 1 to 4 and the Operation Desert Storm simply put they are amazing... and they give a fantastic addition to the standard setup. Oh and they make life interesting in dodging Su-27's and SA-10's in same mission while trying to bomb the living daylights out of an Airfield...

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Yep Viper, that's what I meant. Standards vary between mods, they all are built by dedicated people but some have more time, others less, it's understandable. I just prefer to stay mostly stock so all parts work together and "look/feel the same" overall.

 

I just installed it here at work (if my Boss knew ;) ) and jumped in some cockpits, I noticed CCIP in the A-10 works but goes "over" the cockpit instruments (outside of the HUD glass) I guess I'll live with that.

 

I keep reading references to a Merc Campaign, but didn't see that in my campaign selection screen? Is that an User-Made mod?

 

What I'm sadly missing are the "shadow inside cockpit view" effects from First Eagles, but I suppose the problem is the canopy as part of the cockpit model, which would need the shadows to only work with non-alpha texture parts - certainly a bit more complicated than the open cockpits from WW1.

 

Otherwise I really like having a modern and an "old" aircraft sim on the same engine, makes things so much easier.

[Slartibartfast 153]

The Merc Campaing is in Strike Fighters not in Wings Over Europe or Israel

[Helmut_AUT 0]

Aye, got it. Not quite my thing anyway, I think. The three SF2E campaigns seem decent enough for choices of aircraft and nations.

 

I like what I'm seeing in the manual as far as Radar and Weapon settings are concerned. Not overly complicated switchology but enough to keep one busy.

 

I suppose it IS after all possible to transition from LOMAC to this - while that one has a bit more detail, the lack of a dynamic campaign is a major show stopper for me. And in looks SF2 doesn't need to hide, which I admit I initially underestimated until seeing First Eagles running on a good system.

[Slartibartfast 153]

Would still advocate getting the Nato fighters series and Operation Desert Storm as they bring you up to the Mid 1980's in Weapons and aircraft...