fighting rolands

[Creaghorn 10]

hallo,

 

since there are fighting bristols, would it be possible to make some early roland units also act like fighter squads?

as long as i know early in war the two seaters, especially the rolands were used as scouts, before and along with the eindeckers, till newer scouts appeared in late 1916. rolands often escorted other recon rolands or other two seaters. so would it be possible to make some roland squads act like fighters, similar to the bristols? it might stop as soon as the first albs and halbs appear.

i think it would be historically correct. what do you think?

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

there IS a single unit of "Fighter" Roland C.IIs -- that of FA62. they were most certainly used in the role of fighter over Verdun. they had the best performance of any German machine at that time-- and since Verdun had only a handful of Fokkers (some 50 or less) nearly all escort duties were performed by two-seaters. this would allow the handful of Fokkers to intercept enemy machines.

 

in "Notes from a Lost pilot" Jean Beraud-Villars (a French two-seater pilot, at that time) records a fascinating episode where a German two-seater single-handedly attacks a flight of three Farmans "with both guns". there's only one German two-seater during this period of the war that could make a head-on pass and attack with both the fixed-forward firing machine gun and the observer's machine gun effectively.

 

this lone German pilot harrassed them for about 15 minutes--although he failed to shoot down a single one of them, he so utterly terrified them that none of them took so much as a single picture or ever reached the German balloon that they were hoping to destroy.

 

granted, there aren't a lot of French two-seaters in the game yet-- but you could still make something like that happen on your own. ;)

[Bullethead 12]

I get queasy flying the Roland. I think it's because the wing completely hides the real horizon but looks like an horizon itself. This fake horizon then clashes with the motion you see going on above it. It's even worse when I fly it with TIR. This, plus the complete inability to see forward and down while landing makes me not fly the thing.

 

 

[Hasse Wind 46]

I get queasy flying the Roland. I think it's because the wing completely hides the real horizon but looks like an horizon itself. This fake horizon then clashes with the motion you see going on above it. It's even worse when I fly it with TIR. This, plus the complete inability to see forward and down while landing makes me not fly the thing.

 

 

I don't get queasy, but I fully agree with you on that terrible visibility. Landings are probably best done by sideslipping.

[Creaghorn 10]

there IS a single unit of "Fighter" Roland C.IIs -- that of FA62. they were most certainly used in the role of fighter over Verdun. they had the best performance of any German machine at that time-- and since Verdun had only a handful of Fokkers (some 50 or less) nearly all escort duties were performed by two-seaters. this would allow the handful of Fokkers to intercept enemy machines.

 

in "Notes from a Lost pilot" Jean Beraud-Villars (a French two-seater pilot, at that time) records a fascinating episode where a German two-seater single-handedly attacks a flight of three Farmans "with both guns". there's only one German two-seater during this period of the war that could make a head-on pass and attack with both the fixed-forward firing machine gun and the observer's machine gun effectively.

 

this lone German pilot harrassed them for about 15 minutes--although he failed to shoot down a single one of them, he so utterly terrified them that none of them took so much as a single picture or ever reached the German balloon that they were hoping to destroy.

 

granted, there aren't a lot of French two-seaters in the game yet-- but you could still make something like that happen on your own. ;)

 

 

thank you for this information. do the flightmembers in this squad "fight" or do they fly straight like usually?

[zoomzoom 2]

I agree....the Rolands should act similarly to the Bristols, in both tactics and usage.

 

ZZ.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

thank you for this information. do the flightmembers in this squad "fight" or do they fly straight like usually?

 

the author explains that the German could fly circles around any one of them, and in fact did just that. in spite of all of his tremendous efforts, he was unable to shake the pursuing German. by this time he had only been flying for several months--and it's quite possible that whomever his adversary was, was a far more experienced pilot in a categorically superior aircraft.

 

 

"Notes of a Lost Pilot" by Jean Beraud Villars, as translated by Stanley J. Pincetl Jr and Ernest Marchand, illustrations by Charles Faust

ISBN 0-208-01437-3

 

pages 88-89

 

this battle transpired when three Farmans were attempting to photograph an artillery battery near Verdun in August of 1916. he was a member of Escadrille 44 at the time the excerpt was written.

 

the second half of the book is devoted to his time spent with Escadrille 102.

 

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I've never finished the entire book-- but the first half, devoted to Farmans, is really fascinating.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Maybe we'll see more of these fightin' Rolands in Phase 4? The Walfisch is definitely a better plane than the Eindecker, so it's not at all surprising they were used as heavy fighters in 1916, and could easily defend themselves against the early Entente fighters.

[andqui 1]

I have an idea for two-seaters acting like fighters-

 

the game already has copies of the plane model's to use different skins, so why not make more copies of the two-seaters, and assign the ones in fighter squadrons to a "fighter" AI. The game would see two separate planes, each with their own AI, so the ones in the fighter squads would fight like the Brisfits and the observer/ground attack would do their own thing. The game already copies planes to use different skins, so why not copy the planes to use different AI?

[Rickitycrate 10]

I have an idea for two-seaters acting like fighters-

 

the game already has copies of the plane model's to use different skins, so why not make more copies of the two-seaters, and assign the ones in fighter squadrons to a "fighter" AI. The game would see two separate planes, each with their own AI, so the ones in the fighter squads would fight like the Brisfits and the observer/ground attack would do their own thing. The game already copies planes to use different skins, so why not copy the planes to use different AI?

Very interesting thread and this last post has an intriquing idea. I really like the Walfisch and any expansion of it in the sim would be welcome to me.

[Creaghorn 10]

the author explains that the German could fly circles around any one of them, and in fact did just that. in spite of all of his tremendous efforts, he was unable to shake the pursuing German. by this time he had only been flying for several months--and it's quite possible that whomever his adversary was, was a far more experienced pilot in a categorically superior aircraft.

 

 

"Notes of a Lost Pilot" by Jean Beraud Villars, as translated by Stanley J. Pincetl Jr and Ernest Marchand, illustrations by Charles Faust

ISBN 0-208-01437-3

 

pages 88-89

 

this battle transpired when three Farmans were attempting to photograph an artillery battery near Verdun in August of 1916. he was a member of Escadrille 44 at the time the excerpt was written.

 

the second half of the book is devoted to his time spent with Escadrille 102.

 

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I've never finished the entire book-- but the first half, devoted to Farmans, is really fascinating.

 

thank you for your answer and sorry i didn't make myself clear enough. i would like to know if in the sim, when flying in this squad, my wingmates would act like fighters, when flying the walefish, or would the keep flying straight.

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

thank you for your answer and sorry i didn't make myself clear enough. i would like to know if in the sim, when flying in this squad, my wingmates would act like fighters, when flying the walefish, or would the keep flying straight.

 

hahaha, I don't know yet. whenever I fly with FA62 I usually start as early as possible (in Fokkers). but I'll try a campaign with it in the future as a fighter-pilot and see what happens. I would suspect that the BIG difference is whether your squadron is designated as a fighter or bomber type.

 

I'll find out! ;)

[Bullethead 12]

I would suspect that the BIG difference is whether your squadron is designated as a fighter or bomber type.

<BR><BR>It doesn't make any difference with Fees.  There are Fee squadrons that are fighters (and eventually get Brisfits) and Fee squadrons that are bombers (and eventually get RE8s), but regardless of role, their AIs all fly the same way.  If given free rein with an "attack" order, they just run away in a straight line and allow the enemy to hose them from behind with impunity.<BR><BR>I don't mind if the Fees fly rather lethargically even when being aggressive.  But what really twists my tail is that none of them do the well-documented Lufbery Circle tactic, which was Fee SOP regardless of role, at least until the enemy blew his E. Edited September 10, 2009 by Bullethead

[Duce Lewis 3]

I have an idea for two-seaters acting like fighters-

 

the game already has copies of the plane model's to use different skins, so why not make more copies of the two-seaters, and assign the ones in fighter squadrons to a "fighter" AI. The game would see two separate planes, each with their own AI, so the ones in the fighter squads would fight like the Brisfits and the observer/ground attack would do their own thing. The game already copies planes to use different skins, so why not copy the planes to use different AI?

Hi andqui, Bristol F2b's, Fee's etc. already have fighter and bomber squads

I suspect many more but not so sure about the Roland yet

 

I've been contemplating a Roland Campaign ...hmmm FA62 eh?

I'm off to give it a try

I'll report back ...probably very soon too

[Waldemar Kurtz 1]

well, they seem to make more claims than bomber squadrons--but apart from that I haven't seen a real difference.

 

I'm guessing that they're like the FE2b-- all bark and no bite.

 

if you don't make your attacks carefully they'll shoot you up in a heart-beat... but otherwise, they'll probably mind their own business. I haven't seen enough of them in my Allied careers to know if they're abject and acquiescing cannon-fodder like the FE2b or the BE2c yet.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

You can make your flight of Rolands or Fee's, etc. act more like fighters than bombers via a fairly minor tweak of the OBDSoftware\CFSWWI Over Flanders Fields\aircraft\XXX_Sqd folder's xdp file.

 

To wit, the Fee: Open the aircraft\Fe2b_Sqd folder and open the Fe2b_sqd.xdp file with a text editor. Near the top of the file, under the section titled <UnitData>, look for the following line: "Category='tactical_bomber' " Change "tactical_bomber" to "fighter_bomber" and save the new xdp file. Now your flight will act more like fighters than bombers or observers.

 

I'm not sure if this change will also make "A" flight into fighters or not. I'm also not sure how to specify how to make other squadrons into fighters save editing all of the aircraft folders for each airplane variant so that they also read Category= "fighter-bomber" I suppose you could try editing some, but not all of the folders, but then you might wind up with some planes acting like observers and the others acting like fighters--all in the same flight!

 

Anyone daring enough to try? :heat:

[Duce Lewis 3]

Well 2 missions under my belt so far

Met Quirks then Scouts on the 1st one

Quirks were no problem and we knocked down all 4 w/o loss, I got 3 and the flight got the last one

 

I tried to set up a Beam Attack ...but ...she's no DVII and I never made it around for the pass

TGer laid in a good burst though so I just flew parellel and let him chew up the Tommie

The leader Quirk even manuevered a bit

Roland seems more sluggish than the Biff so you need to plan your passes carefully

 

Met some Bristol Scouts next and they were a lot more trouble

Hard to get on their tails but TGer can hold them off

Tried chasing one low and flew her right into the turf

Have to be careful down low as she loses altitude in a turn pretty fast

 

Re-enlisted and met some DH2's next

Shot all 3 down but the Wingies didn't engage this time

It was an escort mission but a window popped up saying no Recee squads were not available

Wingies were assigned the recee duties and therefore had bomber FM I suppose

 

FA62 are definately fighters but the Rolands are not too easy to fly

Managed a sloppy wingover and a diving barrel roll (with a lot o' rudder)

Landings are an experience, as BH said that wing blocks everything from just above the horizon down

Low approach worked OK and I bounced her once on 2 wheels

 

We'll see how long Lt. Johann Schaefer lasts

Edited September 10, 2009 by Duce Lewis

[Olham 164]

Great thread, interesting topic. There seems to be a lot of space for improvements, maybe on Phase 4.

 

Please report here, when anyone dared to change the file to "fighter_bomber", and what happened.

[+Polovski 424]

As "fighter_bomber" they then attack like a fighter. Some are OK doing this some look completely ridiculous. We changed most a while back as it also changes their behaviour on ground strike missions and elsewhere. They dive bomb instead of level bombing or whatever, also they do not hold formation (where many two seaters are deadly with crossfire from several a/c rear gunners). There are many things in the sim that are a certain way for more than one obvious reason but anyway we MAY be able to put the Rolands back to fighters, IF they then they don't do silly things elsewhere.

[Bullethead 12]

You can make your flight of Rolands or Fee's, etc. act more like fighters than bombers via a fairly minor tweak of the OBDSoftware\CFSWWI Over Flanders Fields\aircraft\XXX_Sqd folder's xdp file.

 

The OBD guys have said that this isn't a good idea for the Fee. The Fee's so-called "vertical abilities" are far lower than what the fighter AI expects to have available, so Fees with fighter AIs spend most of their time stalled.

 

I'm hoping OBD eventually makes a 3rd type of AI for 2-seat pushers. They seem to need one, because neither of the existing AIs does a very good job with them. As mentioned above, they lack the power to use the fighter AI. With the bomber AI OTOH, they're just clay pidgeons. Tractor 2-seaters in formation can cover each other's blindspots, but not pushers, which is why 2-seat pushers used the Lufbery Circle defense.

 

Right now, of course, the only 2-seat pusher is the Fee, so I can understand why OBD didn't spend the extra time on it. Still, the Fee one of the most common Brit planes up to about mid-1917, so the lack of a suitable AI for it is rather noticeable. And it will get more noticeable if future expansions fill out the "Age of the Pusher" with Voisins, Farmans, Gun Busses, etc.

 

I suppose developing a special 2-seat pusher AI would be a lot of work, especially if you take it 1 step farther and split it into "fighter" and "bomber" versions. The "fighter" version would break up the circle after the Huns blow their energy and go chasing off aggressively while pretty much eschewing the vertical. And on top of this, there'd need to be a new wingman command to get your flight to do the circle properly, because flying in a circle while hitting R repeatedly doens't work that well.

 

Oh well, I can dream

[Creaghorn 10]

As "fighter_bomber" they then attack like a fighter. Some are OK doing this some look completely ridiculous. We changed most a while back as it also changes their behaviour on ground strike missions and elsewhere. They dive bomb instead of level bombing or whatever, also they do not hold formation (where many two seaters are deadly with crossfire from several a/c rear gunners). There are many things in the sim that are a certain way for more than one obvious reason but anyway we MAY be able to put the Rolands back to fighters, IF they then they don't do silly things elsewhere.

 

i just started a bomber campaign in april 16, with the change into fighter_bomber in the squadron folder, as prop has suggested. the other roland folders i didn't change. i'll do my missions as assigned, and if i get attacked or if i attack i'll report how they behave. i had one test fight and so far they seem to act at least as good as the bristols, maybe even better.

 

i'll report more when doing more missions

[+Polovski 424]

Yep they used to be fighter_bomber and do odd things on ground attacks usually, and fly like F16's apart from that it's good :)

"Special" AI to fly FE's errr maybe P6 !?

[Hasse Wind 46]

Keep us informed, Creaghorn. I'm interested to see what you discover.

 

I have no idea how difficult it is to change the AI in CFS3, but it's already so much more improved in OFF that maybe it wouldn't be impossible to make reasonable changes to the two-seater AI for those Fees and Rolands and maybe some other two-seater types. I'd be willing to pay for improvements such as this in the form of expansion packs or something; whatever makes it possible to improve OFF also in the future.

[zoomzoom 2]

You can make your flight of Rolands or Fee's, etc. act more like fighters than bombers via a fairly minor tweak of the OBDSoftware\CFSWWI Over Flanders Fields\aircraft\XXX_Sqd folder's xdp file.

 

Oooh, oooh oooh! Now you've done it HPW!! I'm going home and changing my Rolands to Fighter Bombers tonight. That seems more historically accurate. But I'll let you guys know how it plays out in the actual game. Gots-ta go Fly me some Rolands again!!

 

ZZ.

 

PS. as a side note (which most of you already likely know) but: Not all bombers had this ability, some did fly in a much more docile and limited fashion. However, the Bristol and the Roland CII were birds of a different feather, as they were intended to be a cross over breed. I state this simply because to go and change all bomber AC to this type would not only be ludicrous, but historically inaccurate as well. There are numerous accounts of the Rolands being quite agile and difficult to contend with for this reason.

Edited September 10, 2009 by zoomzoom

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I'm curious to see how it works, as well.