OvS 8 Posted October 11, 2009 Taken from : German Aircraft of the First World War - Gray and Thetford, 1962. As usual, contradictory to everything we know. Just adds more speculation to the life of the E.V/D.VIII at the front. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 . Yuppers, I've read this excerpt before OvS and there is a similar article in another contemporary work to this one that makes the same points, (though at the moment I can't put my finger on it). I also read somewhere a while back that there exists a copy of the official order to change the dimensions of the rear wing spar, which adds support to the first theory on the failures. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellshade 110 Posted October 11, 2009 So will the ones that are delivered to the OFF BHaH front have the wing structure deficiencies already corrected? Hellshade Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 . hee hee hee...guess you'll find out if you fly one of the first ones, won't you Hellshade. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OvS 8 Posted October 11, 2009 . hee hee hee...guess you'll find out if you fly one of the first ones, won't you Hellshade. . Well, I was more focued on the facts about the timeline, and that it suggest Osterkamp was awared two kills in a Fokker D.VIII, which suggests that it returned to service in late October. Although I don't consider this info as the only source to justify my thoughts, I have to agree with it moreso than saying the Fokker D.VIII designation never saw action in WWI. As fast as they could correct that known issue, is as fast as they wanted it back in the hands of the better known, active pilots. Makes sense to me. OvS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 . Aaaaah, roger that OvS. Yes, I believe the DVIII saw more service than some give it credit. Jasta 6 was the first to receive the plane in either late July or early August, with Jastas 1, 19, 24 and 36 being given the craft shortly thereafter. Estimates vary, but about 85 saw war service, with a total of nearly 300 being built during and after the war. It was a beauty of a plane. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted October 11, 2009 It's very interesting to see just how much contradictory data is available on the E.V/D.VIII. One book says one thing, another says something else and a third one has yet another opinion. I wonder whether there are some old forgotten documents gathering dust in some archive that could solve the dilemma of the E.V/D.VIII for good, ie. did they see combat, how much, when and where. I just don't know what to believe. But I guess that gives you a lot of artistic license when adding the plane(s) to OFF - your guess is probably as good as anybody's! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFM 18 Posted October 11, 2009 It'll be fun gliding in them! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 Actually Hasse Wind, we do know how many were built and which Jastas flew them. Here are the DVIII production numbers and aircraft accepted, (table courtesy of Windsock Data File #25): Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OvS 8 Posted October 11, 2009 Actually Hasse Wind, we do know how many were built and which Jastas flew them. Here are the DVIII production numbers and aircraft accepted, (table courtesy of Windsock Data File #25): Cheers! Lou Now that's some great info! OvS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 Glad to help OvS. I have more if you need it Sir. The P.M. Grozs DVIII write-up in Windsock #25 is rich with info. For instance, he notes that several Marine Feld jastas tried out the DVIII's late in the war, and has a couple of photos of the III MF and I MF planes, if I remember correctly. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted October 11, 2009 What seems to be the biggest (and most fascinating, IMO) mystery is the combat use of the E.V/D.VIII. Some sources claim the planes saw some action, while others deny it or leave the question open because there doesn't seem to be enough evidence available to give a definite answer. They were used in training in preparation for actual front service, that much is certain, but did they really fight against Entente air forces and even shoot down enemy planes? I have no idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 . HW, according to Grozs the only documented victory with a DVIII was by Lt. Emil Rolff of Jasta 6 on August 17, 1918. But it is my understanding that there were anywhere from 8 to 10 in the Fokker E.V's which were issued before the DVIII and are, technically, a different plane. Jasta 6 claimed seven victories with the E.V in August alone. And, because of the issue dates of the aircraft it looks to me like Rolff's victory was also flying an E.V. It may well be that there were no DVIII victories in WWI. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Polovski 460 Posted October 11, 2009 This is the key here, the correct designation must be used when discussing all the facts. EV did see combat, DVIII likely not. Seems to be mostly in the parks waiting to go or maybe some were delivered and sat there for a day or two. The craft are the same essentially apart for the fix to the wing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OvS 8 Posted October 11, 2009 . HW, according to Grozs the only documented victory with a DVIII was by Lt. Emil Rolff of Jasta 6 on August 17, 1918. But it is my understanding that there were anywhere from 8 to 10 in the Fokker E.V's which were issued before the DVIII and are, technically, a different plane. Jasta 6 claimed seven victories with the E.V in August alone. And, because of the issue dates of the aircraft it looks to me like Rolff's victory was also flying an E.V. It may well be that there were no DVIII victories in WWI. Cheers! Lou Emil Rolff actually scored that victory in an E.V, which he was prompty killed the following day when his wing collapsed... kicking off the investigation. As far as I knew, there were no D.VIII victories recorded. But this information, as well as that chart contradicts that... which we're happy about. OvS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 11, 2009 . I assumed as much when I was looking through the chart of when the aircraft were built and accepted. After a bit more digging I can find nothing that indicates any official DVIII victories for WWI. I did come across a post by Dan-San over at The Aerodrome in which he notes just that, and if Dan-San can't find any confirmed reports, there likely aren't any the rest of us are going to run across, unless it's in a shoe box somewhere in someone's attic. I for one have no such shoe box. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shredward 12 Posted October 11, 2009 Which is why we are fudging it, as you will see in the upcoming pack. I have seen no mention of a DVIII sighting in any RAF combat reports, but, we know that they were in the Parks at the end of October, and we have (spurious) reports of them at a couple of Jastas, so, we are going to have them in BHAH, parsimoniously doled out. Cheers, shred Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 11, 2009 Well, even if the D VIII never got into action (which is what it looks like), and with no shoe box under your bed, your chart is a great contribution, showing here, that there where numerous E.V delivered to several Jastas. And those most definitely saw some action, until the withdrawal due to wingbreaks. You gave us a good feeling, that we won't use a "secret weapon of the Luftwaffe" type, but a craft, which really was in combat - even if for short time. A bit like the twin gun Tripe, which was limited in real life as well. Thank you for that, Lou! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 12, 2009 . You're more than welcome Olham. BTW, I checked my copy of Bob Pearson's "AIRCRAFT COLOURS AND MARKINGS OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR ERA", (an outstanding CD that should be in everyone's WWI aircraft library, IMHO), and found the following profiles of the E.V's. Also, here is some paint info on the E.V as well, (again from Windsock Date File #25): Cheers! Lou . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 12, 2009 Always looking great, the Pearson paintshemes. But he got a name wrong. Friedrich Altmemeier is really Friedrich Altemeier. Does anyone have a colour chart of Munsell or Methuen colours, or a link to one of those, to see the colours mentioned in the charts? Thanks for sharing, Lou! Jasta 6 seems to have been the Staffel, that got the new craft first, always. At least in BHaH I noticed that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 12, 2009 TKS for the correction Olham. As to the Methuen color chart, that is still being sold in book form for $700 plus, so as copyrighted material you are only going to find bits and pieces of it online but not likely the complete charts. Don't know about the Munsell charts. However, here are a few links I have found useful in the past: MisterKit Colors Urban's Color Reference Charts (check the Italy chart for a few Methuen cross-references) The Mother Of All Color Charts Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bullethead 12 Posted October 12, 2009 The Austrians even got their hands on a few EV/DVIII planes, although apparently none got beyond the evaluation stage in the rear before the war ended. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
